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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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I have a crawling suspicion that the cops tried to contaminate the clasp with Sollecito's DNA, and Stefanoni knew that's what she was supposed to find. However, perhaps leery of overdoing it (which might have looked very suspicious), they screwed up and managed barely a trace, along with a lot of other bare traces.

But that of course is a vile calumny which I cannot substantiate. It's just a feeling I have.

Rolfe.

I agree with this, and I think the same applies to the "murder weapon" they found by "policeman's intuition" at Raffaele's house.

It seems almost certain based on their videotaped behaviour that they knew that the clasp was going to be important to their case. Similarly the hoops Stefanoni jumped through to "find" DNA evidence on an object from Raffaele's house that could tie him to the murder (such a knife found at Amanda's house would of course prove nothing) when no such hoops were jumped through to try to find the real murder weapon amongst the items taken from Amanda's house indicate to me that Stefanoni knew in advance what outcome she wanted.

However rather than frame them properly they appear to have done a half-arsed job, either because they're as incompetent at corruption as they are at everything else, or so as to maintain plausible deniability.

There's no proof, but their behaviour makes no sense at all under any other hypothesis I can think of.
 
I'm still not entirely positive of what they decided on the bra clasp. As for the calumnia charge, its not extraditable. Knox is in the states. They are just wasting everyones money by continuing those charges. Italys tax payers are gonna front that bill because they will never see a dime. Patrick might get some of that money that knox won in italy from her lawsuit. Other than that, no one else will get any money(other than the lawyers). Mainly because US views slander differently. Is Maresca still working for free? Or are the Kerchers paying him now?

In the Massei Report it reveals that Maresca and the other lawyers not related to the prosecution or defense received payment as part of the judgment. That was 'overturned' on appeal, indicating that either Maresca is working for free or someone has been running a large tab. Shortly after the verdict on of the British papers revealed that the Kercher's may have to sell their house to pay 'travel expenses' during the course of the trial. That may be related, though that article did not say anything about legal expenses.
 
John Kercher seems to be saying that he will donate the profits of the book he's had accepted to a charitable foundation in Meredith's memory. Possibly this scholarship we've heard about, which doesn't yet seem to be a reality. Colour me sceptical, but I imagine he'll take care of the debts first.

At the same time the guilter community is railing about how disgusting and completely unacceptable it would be if Amanda made a penny from the media, even though she has been acquitted, and even to recoup the family's heavy expenditure on travel and legal fees.

Is this about money, or about who is allowed to put their narrative in the public domain? And I would simply remark that anything the Kerchers spent was voluntary, though I agree the Foreign Office should have helped them with travel to attend the trial if they wanted to be there. They were under no obligation to hire any legal representation. On the other hand the Knox family didn't have any alternative, and have allegedly taken out large loans and re-mortgaged at least one house.

Rolfe.
 
Frankly, no. Based solely upon your posts, it seems quite clear that you do believe in she-devils and witches as does a certain segment of the population in Perugia. Otherwise, why would Perugian lawyers raise such nonsense as the entire basis of their submissions at the second trial? They certainly didn't lead any evidence; just innuendo and appeals to emotion and appeals to witchcraft, and appeals to patriotism.

.....
And otherwise, why would you ignore the reality that there was never any compelling evidence against Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito to implicate them in Ms. Kercher's murder, and cling to your pre-determined view that they are guilty, when there is no compelling evidence to support that view?



It’s very simple. This how it works: I see evidence they are guilty. From the evidence that I can see, myself, I conclude, beyond doubt, that the defendants are implicated in the murder.
This is reality to me. I cannot believe someone over the reality that I happen to see, to discover and experience myself.
The same conclusion of guilt is reached by many other people, not only the previous judges and not only the folks of which those on PMF are examples, but in Italy thousands, or maybe millions have a convincement similar to mine. Among my friends (and relatives), people whom I know, I found not one of them thinking the defendants are innocent. And there was a thousand people shouting “vergogna” outside the court house in Perugia. This is not something the people do normally in Perugia nor in other cities. Albeit millions of “guilters” are ignorant about the details about the evidence, after my observation of the case and after building a detailed knowledge of the evidence, in which I was starting from a neutral position, my conclusion is that these crowds are correct: indeed there is evidence beyond reasonable doubt.
I see this as obvious. It is what I see. You might not believe me. But this will not change it (because I am not Amanda Knox, I am not “convinced” by others about what I see).

This is the basis, the fundament in my position. Based on this logical assumption, that this a basis in what I think, you can assess the rest of my reasonings and insights.

The problem for you seems to be that you do not believe this is simply the structure of my opinion. But I have to note, that also the innocentisti people seem to propose a polar opposed view on the things which are not the evidence but all the rest, such as the police, the justice system, the culture, the moral evaluation of the context. I am facing people who believe the prosecution leaks pictures of bathroom painted in pink to English tabloids in order to influence the judges: no sane Italian would ever produce such an idea. Or that police give out false HIV test results in order to diffuse news about Amanda’s sexual to the press. This is a form of delusion that has no dot of contact with a reality of sort. Or they perceive a person convicted for calunnia who doesn’t pay the court expenses she owes as an innocent. I feel this as a repugnant, foolish and dangerous perversion in perception of reality. I consider the spreading of this vision of things as a direct danger to my safety in the territory I live in. I think that if another of your fellows commits a rape and murder of a girl here you will just defend him or her, and this would tend to establish that any person will be allowed to kill and walk free, if there is the same evidence against him as that against AK and RS, and this claim of a license to kill is just not remotely acceptable to me. And, that in one country there are prople who think to build a sanctuary for murderers where they “believe” other people are evil and corrupt, where idiots come here to insult officers in court, where people believe a foreigner should be considered a serial killer and a burglar without proof, this is not acceptable neither.

Your assertions above about witches and devils are utterly unfounded, to the point that would be too easy to ask you to quote a post where I speak about “witches” and “she-devils”, in order to assert that “based solely on my posts” you infer that I believe in witches and she-devils. This is unfounded. What you say is obviously false and absurd. I am not even a Christian, I cannot believe in devils. I challenge you to quote something written by me on this line.
On the other hand, I do not believe to “honor students” neither.

What you say is like when you stated that Amanda was “prematurely” arrested.
By the way this was egregiously contradicting an assertion by the majority of innocentisti who, apparently, claim that she was instead declared a formal suspect too late. Look just at the contradictions in your arguments, which I suspect you don’t focus even remotely.
So you believe Knox was arrested prematurely, while she was arrested days after she had falsely testified as a witness (lies proven by her e-mail), after Sollecito testified against her and after she falsely accused an innocent by releasing further false witness reports in three different statements. You think Amanda was arrested prematurely, but you think that I believe in witches. I don’t see any logic in this, your own statements are so against the obvious reality that I cannot really make a direct comment.

Now on your statement: “…. it seems quite clear that you do believe in she-devils and witches as does a certain segment of the population in Perugia. Otherwise, why would Perugian lawyers raise such nonsense as the entire basis of their submissions at the second trial…”, I point out two errors:
1. First as I said there are no posts where I convey a belief in witches, so this is false
2. Second, it is astounding the logic by which you assume the “Perugia lawyers” are a basis in order to make inference on my beliefs.

The content of your mind seems: Perugia is a medieval place where people believe in witches; the Italians spend their time saving face. Starting from this presumption – or better from this presumptuous ignorance – in fact you can deduce anything. You can interpret anything along this line if your ignorance allows you to make this assumptions.
If you believe the Perugia people believe in witches, well I think a rational person is a person who would base such belief on a direct anthropologic observation of the cultural environment. Cannot be a person who, when in Perugia, does not understand indications for the toilet.

But this is not what people on this forum do: they draw their inference and conclusion from their own interpretation of the speech of a lawyers and its context. Or from a translation of some words extrapolated from a lawyer’s speech, to which they attribute an arbitrary meaning around a fantasy about a cultural context.

You rely on these guesses, but mostly, you seem to rely on lies. The “satanic”, the “witch”, the “Mignini” ans a Preston’s novel character, the CNN reports, the whole of your fantasy.
It is not true that Mignini accused Knox and Sollecito of a “satanic ritual”; it is just not true. It is not true that he accused Knox of keeping a vibrator in the bathroom.
If you actually want to search about involved people’s characters, actually - this is maybe not reported – you can note that Raffaele Sollecito (and other witnesses) described Knox as a person with cynical values and unattached to reality, “she only cares about pleasure”, “she lives in a different world“ (Sollecito writes); Meredith’s friends say worse things about Knox, not Mignini.

The defence introduced nonsensical lies by calling Aviello and Alessi (Aviello later recanted and released a declaration where he says the "real" confidence Sollecito told him was that he was present on the murder scene, but the killer is Knox). However, despite this you accuse "the prosecution" of bringing in nonsensical lies.

But it’s impossible for me to convey my view of reality and evidence – or better, it is not worth for me to do it on a forum like this one. The meaning of my writing on this forum can only be to give my testimony, the evidence, that a “guilter” convincement, a belief about Justice, is well alive and vital, self-confident and totally determined. I think, I have a position on what is Justice for Meredith and what is about the truth in this case, and because of the nature of my convincement, and also because it is shared by many and by the Kerchers, I feel my duty towards Meredith, justice and truth is to declare it, in the face of your point of view. This is just something I felt like a task in these days, I think it was a duty to claim it (as I was called provoked by people like LJ and their attitude which included the use of my nickname as a reference to spread falsehoods), really more like a duty than an interest; while I am not really that interested in demonstrating things to you on the forum.
 
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John Kercher seems to be saying that he will donate the profits of the book he's had accepted to a charitable foundation in Meredith's memory. Possibly this scholarship we've heard about, which doesn't yet seem to be a reality. Colour me sceptical, but I imagine he'll take care of the debts first.

At the same time the guilter community is railing about how disgusting and completely unacceptable it would be if Amanda made a penny from the media, even though she has been acquitted, and even to recoup the family's heavy expenditure on travel and legal fees.

Is this about money, or about who is allowed to put their narrative in the public domain? And I would simply remark that anything the Kerchers spent was voluntary, though I agree the Foreign Office should have helped them with travel to attend the trial if they wanted to be there. They were under no obligation to hire any legal representation. On the other hand the Knox family didn't have any alternative, and have allegedly taken out large loans and re-mortgaged at least one house.

Rolfe.

The Knox family indeed had an alternative, because the Italian state would have provided a defence if they didn't pay for it. Their alternative was not different from that of the Kerchers: the Kerchers could have given ut their representation in the trial, but this would have prevented them from accessing and assessing the evidence and from interacting in the procedure. Their position in the trial would have been canceled in their detriment o as victims. Amanda Knox could have accepted to rely on possibly a lesser quality defense, with less expensive experts (but not necessarily inferior, since Ghirga was far from brilliant), with possible detriment to her interest as a defendant.
The concept of "no alternative" for Knox and "freedom of choice" (no obligation) for the Kerchers is utterly false.
Both had alternatives, with advantages and disadvantages.

It is false, on the other hand, that Knox was acquitted: Knox is found guilty of calunnia and condemned to pay the trial expenses, and to pay them provisionally, by now she owes money to Patrick, to his lawyer and to the Italian state: her ernings belong to Patrick Lumumba and to the state.
 
The Knox family indeed had an alternative, because the Italian state would have provided a defence if they didn't pay for it. Their alternative was not different from that of the Kerchers: the Kerchers could have given ut their representation in the trial, but this would have prevented them from accessing and assessing the evidence and from interacting in the procedure. Their position in the trial would have been canceled in their detriment o as victims. Amanda Knox could have accepted to rely on possibly a lesser quality defense, with less expensive experts (but not necessarily inferior, since Ghirga was far from brilliant), with possible detriment to her interest as a defendant.
The concept of "no alternative" for Knox and "freedom of choice" (no obligation) for the Kerchers is utterly false.
Both had alternatives, with advantages and disadvantages.

It is false, on the other hand, that Knox was acquitted: Knox is found guilty of calunnia and condemned to pay the trial expenses, and to pay them provisionally, by now she owes money to Patrick, to his lawyer and to the Italian state: her ernings belong to Patrick Lumumba and to the state.

Public defender vs. private attorney? Please. That's not a real choice if it is at all possible to get a private attorney. I know many public defenders (most also have private practices and are part-time PDs). Most of them are capable lawyers, but the public defender's office has few resources and the case loads are large. As a result, you don't get the same quality of defense in America with a public defender, and I'll bet it's the same in Italy. Putting on a quality defense in a murder case is very expensive. Especially when the forensic evidence is a total joke and you need experts to explain why. Expert witnesses are not cheap.

And Knox was indeed acquitted of MURDER, which was a bit more serious than the charge she was convicted of. She was acquitted of the charge that mattered. That's why you're so upset, remember? And even if the calunnia conviction is not reversed (I suspect it will be, but I'm by no means certain), no American court will recognize it as valid. That's because it is not valid by any reasonable standard. It's a joke and a travesty, and it's the new "Exhibit A" for why the Italian justice system is an international laughingstock. In the US, the police would likely face criminal charges for their conduct, and Mignini would be disbarred. Lumumba would get a payday, but it would be at the expense of the police. So I hope Italy and Lumumba enjoy their totally unenforceable judgment against Knox. I wonder what they'll do with all that theoretical money.
 
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It is false, on the other hand, that Knox was acquitted: Knox is found guilty of calunnia and condemned to pay the trial expenses, and to pay them provisionally, by now she owes money to Patrick, to his lawyer and to the Italian state: her ernings belong to Patrick Lumumba and to the state.

But you yourself have said that finding Knox guilty of Calunnia makes no sense if she's not guilty of murder, for then there would be no mens rea. I agree with you. So why should she pay a penny? Because of a verdict that's not logical?
 
Mach,

I think she was arrested to late by the law as you describe it.

I don't understand why an email to friends has anything to do with the prosecution of the case. If she wanted to embellish her role in the case that has nothing to do with her guilt or innocence.

If, in fact, Avielo has recanted it would seem that is what you said he would he to do to avoid a calunnia charge. By that I mean you said that Amanda should have immediately recanted and somehow that would have served her interests.
 
I still dont see how the gift can be taken in account when it is a direct result of the unlawful (statement) interrogation! The supreme court made a huge mistake in not clearing this up ! It's not just no matter what .
 
.....

It’s very simple. This how it works: I see evidence they are guilty. From the evidence that I can see, myself, I conclude, beyond doubt, that the defendants are implicated in the murder.
This is reality to me. I cannot believe someone over the reality that I happen to see, to discover and experience myself.
The same conclusion of guilt is reached by many other people, not only the previous judges and not only the folks of which those on PMF are examples, but in Italy thousands, or maybe millions have a convincement similar to mine.

If a million people say a stupid thing, it is still a stupid thing.

Among my friends (and relatives), people whom I know, I found not one of them thinking the defendants are innocent.

That says something about them, not about the scientific evidence that proves Knox and Sollecito could not possibly have murdered Meredith Kercher.

And there was a thousand people shouting “vergogna” outside the court house in Perugia.

Do you mean a small handful of corrupt plainclothes police officers, outnumbered by a larger crowd who supported the acquittal?
 
I still dont see how the gift can be taken in account when it is a direct result of the unlawful (statement) interrogation! The supreme court made a huge mistake in not clearing this up ! It's not just no matter what .

I agree the police legally should not have accepted the "gift" from Amanda, since by that time she was under arrest and therefore unquestionably had the right to counsel, which had not yet been provided to her. It's the equivalent of not reading someone their rights in the United States but using what they say against them.

Amanda testified that she didn't know what papers she was signing on the day of the 6th, including her arrest warrant. I think on the evening of the 6th, when she offered the note, she was still in cooperation mode, still trying to answer the questions the police had drilled her with the night before. She didn't know how much things had changed over the course of the day. The case had already been declared closed and the police were finished communicating with her, regardless of the fact that she was not finished communicating with them.

On the other hand, I am glad the police did take her gift and that it was allowed in the trial. It is the strongest evidence that exists of Amanda's immediate ambivalence and of what happened during the interrogation.
 
What innocent woman?
The only innocent woman in this story was already dead while her roommate decided - by her words - that her priority was to bring a mop to another part of the city.
You seem have no idea of what a crusade is nor what a fight for justice is along the standard of Italian history. It took thirty years to establish a partial truth in the Ustica massacre. The same in many other crimes. You say "stings" to people who fight for justice in very different terms. You think I consider a this a "failure"? You don't have an idea of what my terms of comparisons are. If you hope Amanda will stop being called a murderer, you dream.

I'm curious Machiavelli - what "partial truth" do you consider to have been established regarding the Ustica air crash? Do you feel that the Italian Air Force generals were unjustly acquitted of treason? What parallels, if any, do you see to the Kercher murder case?
 
What I think is that Judge Hellmann give Amanda three years time done was to get Amanda out of Italy.
and I think that Judge Hellmann will know that The SCI will over rule his jugement on that charge.
we will find out in sixteen months time, thats may view anyway
 
If such a thing like unjustified refusal of an extradition happens, then the treaty vanishes and as consequence I would be pleased if Italy hosts, let's say, some members of Al Qaida, as a retaliation, so that you feel the same kind of approach, and that would be "justice served" to me.

.....
The meaning of my writing on this forum can only be to give my testimony, the evidence, that a “guilter” convincement, a belief about Justice, is well alive and vital, self-confident and totally determined. I think, I have a position on what is Justice for Meredith and what is about the truth in this case, and because of the nature of my convincement, and also because it is shared by many and by the Kerchers, I feel my duty towards Meredith, justice and truth is to declare it, in the face of your point of view.

Please. Your idea of "justice" is disgusting.
 
Another great post, Kaosium. I have a question about the cook convicted in his absence. I tried to find some more information on this and did not have a lot of luck. Evidently he was convicted because his name came up on a wiretap and the real killer just happened to use the cook's name as one of his aliases.

So all this time Italy convicts a person based on having the same name as some criminal's alias. This thing went through both a trial and an appeal and the cook was provided a defense, which never even bothered to tell the cook that he was on trial for murder in Italy. Then an EAW was issued for the cook's arrest which was accomplished the next time he went through an airport. Did they ever catch the real killer?

Here's another article on it, looks like identity theft. What I just find hilarious about it is it took them more than five weeks to establish that ironclad alibi and the fingerprint analysis. It's like they didn't even care that this poor guy is in jail and what should have taken a day or two at most lasts until they get around to it. Charlie Wilkes asked me when the independent experts were appointed how it could possibly take so long for them to do their review, he was in a sour mood about it thinking it was a bad indication. One of the things I told him was 'they need time for golfing on the weekends, it's not them in jail!' He might not have liked that answer, but I wasn't really kidding, institutions with that much power and few to answer can really take on arrogant assumptions no one questions. Like going on vacation to leave Amanda and Raffaele in jail the whole sweltering summer, then more vacation time afterward.

Here's a classic example, it never happened of course, but it gives me a chuckle even still as there's a kernel of truth at the bottom of it:

Urban Legend said:
This is the transcript of an ACTUAL radio conversation of a US
naval ship with Canadian authorities off the coast of Newfoundland
in October 1995.

Radio conversation released by the Chief of Naval Operations
10-10-95.

Americans: Please divert your course 15 degrees to the North to
avoid a collision.

Canadians: Recommend you divert YOUR course 15 degrees to the
South to avoid a collision.

Americans: This is the Captain of a US Navy ship. I say again,
divert YOUR course.

Canadians: No. I say again, you divert YOUR course.

Americans: THIS IS THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER USS ENTERPRISE,THE
LARGEST SHIP IN THE UNITED STATES' ATLANTIC FLEET. WE ARE
ACCOMPANIED BY THREE DESTROYERS, THREE CRUISERS AND NUMEROUS
SUPPORT VESSELS. I DEMAND THAT YOU CHANGE YOUR COURSE 15 DEGREES
NORTH, THAT'S ONE FIVE DEGREES NORTH, OR COUNTER-MEASURES WILL BE
UNDERTAKEN TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF THIS SHIP.

Canadians: This is a lighthouse. Your call.
 
What innocent woman?
The only innocent woman in this story was already dead while her roommate decided - by her words - that her priority was to bring a mop to another part of the city.
You seem have no idea of what a crusade is nor what a fight for justice is along the standard of Italian history. It took thirty years to establish a partial truth in the Ustica massacre. The same in many other crimes. You say "stings" to people who fight for justice in very different terms. You think I consider a this a "failure"? You don't have an idea of what my terms of comparisons are. If you hope Amanda will stop being called a murderer, you dream.

Fights for justice

Italians vs. Italians = thirty years
The rest of the world vs. Italians = four years
 
withdrawal of the accusation

I still dont see how the gift can be taken in account when it is a direct result of the unlawful (statement) interrogation! The supreme court made a huge mistake in not clearing this up ! It's not just no matter what .
GreyFox,

The second memoriale of 7 November is a complete retraction of the accusation. It seems to me that her withdrawal of her earlier statements has never gotten as much recognition as it deserves. I am not sure whether or not its existence changes the legal picture, but it does knock the foundation out from underneath a pro-guilt talking point.
 
Mach,

I think she was arrested to late by the law as you describe it.

I don't understand why an email to friends has anything to do with the prosecution of the case. If she wanted to embellish her role in the case that has nothing to do with her guilt or innocence.

This is because you don't know the law. The e-mail is voluntary, and it was included in the trial file. Extra-judicial declarations are the most important ones in the Italian system. The "embellishment" should be called a lie. And the letter includes the statement that this version is identical to the one she rendered to the police. She can be questioned on her e-mail account, the e-mail can be read in court as her declaration, and she needs to object if she wants to correct its statements.
This e-mail is entirely determinant to the case. Because the number and gravity of "embellishments" is such to be a demonstration that the account is entirely fictional, entirely false. The narrative is impossible and unacceptable.


If, in fact, Avielo has recanted it would seem that is what you said he would he to do to avoid a calunnia charge. By that I mean you said that Amanda should have immediately recanted and somehow that would have served her interests.

It's not possible to avoid a calunnia charge by recanting a testimony that one has released in court, this would only entitle him to a mitigation. But in order to retract the false testimony, it would have been enought if he declared that he had been corrupted and his testimony was false. It was not necessary to provide annother testimony bringing evidence of murder against Amanda Knox: this is not rewarded by legal advantages. This does not serve his interests, only brings him new problems.
Whatever is your trust in Aviello, in the best option the calling of Aviello by the defense is a demonstration that the defense brings up lies, false narratives and false alibies as their arguments.
 
Mach,

I am impressed by your passion and I do have some admiration for people who represent a unpopular view. But how you can speak in such absolute terms is beyond me.

How can you not step back and see just how stupid your theory is?

They didn't even know Rudy..... Think about that. Try processing that for a moment. Who justs meets someone spur of the moment and decides to form a plan to rape and murder someone? The theory is just incredibly stupid.

I wish you could rip off the blinders and see that.
 
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