Things Occupy Wall Street activists should demand

Travis

Misanthrope of the Mountains
Joined
Mar 31, 2007
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Rather than knock on them for their many faults. Let's get to the meat of what they should be demanding if they wanted to do something about what they are mad about.

End agricultural subsidies.
Cut DOD spending 20%.
Close corporate tax loopholes.
Subsidize state universities to close tuition gap.
Negotiate with major banks for new grace periods for student loans.
End linking funding to prolific standardized testing in schools. Appoint multiyear review committees on performance instead.
Cap campaign donations.
Reinvest in infrastructure improvements.
Bust up key defense contractor and aerospace monopolies.



Anyone got anything else they may want to add?
 
Bust up key defense contractor and aerospace monopolies.

Not very feasible.



Anyone got anything else they may want to add?


1.) Fair tax code that mimics that tax system of other western social democracies.

2.) Reformation Medicare and Medicaid; make one uniform system of healthcare that will care for all members of society regardless of class.

3.) Reformation of Social Security.

4.) Reformation of the American education system to make it more competitive.

5.) Balance trade with China

6.)
End agricultural subsidies.

Noble idea, I personally don't think it’s possible. I would however, like to see a more balanced list of subsidies. Less towards meat and dairy products, more towards vegetables, fruits, and whole grains. Subsidies should mimic the human diet, not the human desire. I would also like to see a diversification of our crop. I am not an opponent against GMO food, but if any form of pests were to adapt to our rapidly advancing GMO crops, we should at least have 20-50 different varieties to prevent destruction of the crop. And promote a healthier diet.

7.) Greater investment in sustainable infrastructure and slow transition to renewables. Reduce usage of coal, oil, and natural by 90% over the next 53 years.

8.) Campaign finance reform, overturn court decision that says corporations are persons

9.) A uniform water policy in America that protects our dangerously volatile supply of water.

10.) Try adopting FDR’s second bill of rights.​
 
I can appreciate where you're coming from on this and many of these demands look reasonable on the surface. I'd just like to add my objections

Rather than knock on them for their many faults. Let's get to the meat of what they should be demanding if they wanted to do something about what they are mad about.

End agricultural subsidies.

I thought part of the justification for some subsidies was to provide smaller farms with a living return on investment and as a consequence stem the tide of the agri-business.

Of course one of the problems with any subsidy is that the canny learn to take advantage of them and that big business benefits best.

If agricultural subsidies are withdrawn then there'll be a lot of hardship for family farmers in the short term which will allow big business to pick up farmland more cheaply and benefit even more from economies of scale

Cut DOD spending 20%.

I find it hard to argue against this one but presumably the spending goes to someone and helps to pay someone's salary. If DOD spending is cut significantly, US manufacturing is going to take a major hit. That's what has happened here in the UK, the upshot of the defence cuts is putting thousands of skilled engineers on the dole.

Close corporate tax loopholes.

I'm sure they'd love to, but it's very difficult to do.

If you insist that US based companies pay US tax on all their earnings then this will unfairly penalise companies with international business.

If you insist that all companies with a US presence pay US tax on their US (or all) income then that'll result in a major international hoo-ha

Subsidize state universities to close tuition gap.

That's a great idea, where does the money come from ?

Negotiate with major banks for new grace periods for student loans.

So now you're placing an unexpected demand on US banks that their international competitors don't have. US banks would be placed at a significant disadvantage which will just make things worse for them

End linking funding to prolific standardized testing in schools. Appoint multiyear review committees on performance instead.

So instead of objective testing you end up with subjective assessment which will necessarily be subject to political pressure. The committees (full of government fat cats) will find that schools with a religious slant are doing fine while secular schools are mysteriously found wanting.

Cap campaign donations.

Which will inevitably mean that the rich seeking election will be operating at an even greater advantage than Joe Public. The rich can meet many costs out of their own pocket (especially "soft" costs like travel), the rest of us cannot.

Reinvest in infrastructure improvements.

Even I cannot come up with an argument against this one, so long as the infrastructure improvements don't turn into a huge boondoggle. The investment should deliver high requirement infrastructure, develop required technologies and deliver required skills.

Bust up key defense contractor and aerospace monopolies.

The cost of developing any aerospace system these days is so ruinously expensive that there's only space for a handful of companies globally. Forcing US companies to split would put them at a significant disadvantage globally.

Anyone got anything else they may want to add?

Almost all of what you say are laudable objectives. I just think that there are significant consequences associated with each that need to be thought through.
 
5.) Balance trade with China

This kind of thing ticks me off. How would the U.S. feel if countries where they have a positive balance of trade unilaterally decided to balance the trade ?

Trade imbalance is a consequence of global capitalism.

Presumably China is buying as much U.S. stuff as they want or need so are you going to deny U.S. consumers Chinese goods and force them to wait years until U.S. manufacturing gears up and produces more expensive replacements (which will push up inflation) ?
 
End agricultural subsidies. why?

Cut DOD spending 20%. no.

Close corporate tax loopholes. absolutely

Subsidize state universities to close tuition gap. okay

Negotiate with major banks for new grace periods for student loans. nope, force the banks to do it.
End linking funding to prolific standardized testing in schools. Appoint multiyear review committees on performance instead. And end tenure, make educators earn it.

Cap campaign donations. No, end them and illegalize them

Reinvest in infrastructure improvements. fine

Bust up key defense contractor and aerospace monopolies. okay



Anyone got anything else they may want to add?

Ban smoking universally and legalize stem cell research


also for Foreign Policy:


Locate and bunker bust Mexican Cartel centers in mexico, invade and establish a 500 mile control zone deeper into mexico.
Allow Israel to destroy Iran's total nuclear capability
Tactical nuke air burst over the North Korean capitol to pave the way for a joint Chinese/South Korean invasion of North Korea.

Outlaw French nuclear capacity in the UN.
 
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I'm sure they'd love to, but it's very difficult to do.

If you insist that US based companies pay US tax on all their earnings then this will unfairly penalise companies with international business.

If you insist that all companies with a US presence pay US tax on their US (or all) income then that'll result in a major international hoo-ha

Yes, uh, I think Travis would be insisting the second. Somehow, I don't think it's unreasonable they pay tax. 'course, at that point you'd need something like VAT over income, wouldn't you?

That's a great idea, where does the money come from ?
Presumably raised taxes and spending cuts elsewhere (probably the agricultural subsdies and DOD cuts.)

So now you're placing an unexpected demand on US banks that their international competitors don't have. US banks would be placed at a significant disadvantage which will just make things worse for them
It's not like they're struggling. At all. (Well, smaller ones are, but that's a subject for a different topic.)

So instead of objective testing you end up with subjective assessment which will necessarily be subject to political pressure. The committees (full of government fat cats) will find that schools with a religious slant are doing fine while secular schools are mysteriously found wanting.
Oooh, predicting the future AS WELL as a strawman argument.


Which will inevitably mean that the rich seeking election will be operating at an even greater advantage than Joe Public. The rich can meet many costs out of their own pocket (especially "soft" costs like travel), the rest of us cannot.
You could dfine that within donations, although you COULD just simply limit how much people spend on their behalf by requiring to be an in-kind campaign donation. Or something. Slippery argument that, though.

The cost of developing any aerospace system these days is so ruinously expensive that there's only space for a handful of companies globally. Forcing US companies to split would put them at a significant disadvantage globally
.

Side note: Yes.
Unside note: He may be referring to stuff that develops subsidiaries for the express purpose of getting defense business.

End agricultural subsidies. why?
2+ billion.

Cut DOD spending 20%. no.
Why not?

Close corporate tax loopholes. absolutely

Subsidize state universities to close tuition gap. okay

Negotiate with major banks for new grace periods for student loans. nope, force the banks to do it.
End linking funding to prolific standardized testing in schools. Appoint multiyear review committees on performance instead. And end tenure, make educators earn it.
You do know to earn tenure you often have to pass performance appraisals, right? That there are reasons for it?

Cap campaign donations. No, end them and illegalize them
... And publicilly fund them? Replacement definitely needed for that.

also for Foreign Policy:


Locate and bunker bust Mexican Cartel centers in mexico, invade and establish a 500 mile control zone deeper into mexico.
Allow Israel to destroy Iran's total nuclear capability
Tactical nuke air burst over the North Korean capitol to pave the way for a joint Chinese/South Korean invasion of North Korea.

Outlaw French nuclear capacity in the UN.

... Why would anyone want the latter bits ever? Sure, they sound good, but that's definitely going into Imperial American Empire territory, and pointlessly screwing with France for no good reason.
 
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This kind of thing ticks me off. How would the U.S. feel if countries where they have a positive balance of trade unilaterally decided to balance the trade ?

Trade imbalance is a consequence of global capitalism.

Presumably China is buying as much U.S. stuff as they want or need so are you going to deny U.S. consumers Chinese goods and force them to wait years until U.S. manufacturing gears up and produces more expensive replacements (which will push up inflation) ?

To be fair, the US lately is debt obsessive. I tend to agree that you're pretty much right..
 
Yes, uh, I think Travis would be insisting the second. Somehow, I don't think it's unreasonable they pay tax. 'course, at that point you'd need something like VAT over income, wouldn't you?



Presumably raised taxes and spending cuts elsewhere (probably the agricultural subsdies and DOD cuts.)



It's not like they're struggling. At all. (Well, smaller ones are, but that's a subject for a different topic.)



Oooh, predicting the future AS WELL as a strawman argument.




You could dfine that within donations, although you COULD just simply limit how much people spend on their behalf by requiring to be an in-kind campaign donation. Or something. Slippery argument that, though.

.

Side note: Yes.
Unside note: He may be referring to stuff that develops subsidiaries for the express purpose of getting defense business.



2+ billion.



Why not?



You do know to earn tenure you often have to pass performance appraisals, right? That there are reasons for it?



... And public ally fund them? Replacement definitely needed for that.

Reinvest in infrastructure improvements. fine

Bust up key defense contractor and aerospace monopolies. okay

also for Foreign Policy:


Locate and bunker bust Mexican Cartel centers in mexico, invade and establish a 500 mile control zone deeper into mexico.
Allow Israel to destroy Iran's total nuclear capability
Tactical nuke air burst over the North Korean capitol to pave the way for a joint Chinese/South Korean invasion of North Korea.

Outlaw French nuclear capacity in the UN.

... Why would anyone want the latter bits ever?[/QUOTE]

why wouldn't they?
 
Because we have this thing called not pointlessly being Imperial America with Emperor Barack the First nor do we think that just going in militarily is a good idea when

a) We're over streched
b) We then are responsbile for the people
c) A tac nuke burst harms the ozone layer and sets off early warning systems
d) China would attack us not North Korea.
e) France is an ally.
f) Mexico is a major narcostate but I doubt the people want us there. Do you remember the Maquis?
 
Most so called loopholes are there for a stimulus type of purpose. I am sure there are many that are either outdated or put in more as a favor to constituents (sp??), but most every loophole will have its group that says it is important.

People throw the term "loophole" around all the time, and I have no idea what it means. There are no tax loopholes. There are deductions and credits. Is that what they are talking about?
 
This kind of thing ticks me off. How would the U.S. feel if countries where they have a positive balance of trade unilaterally decided to balance the trade ?

Trade imbalance is a consequence of global capitalism.

Presumably China is buying as much U.S. stuff as they want or need so are you going to deny U.S. consumers Chinese goods and force them to wait years until U.S. manufacturing gears up and produces more expensive replacements (which will push up inflation) ?

I dunno, get therapy?

China does some pretty shady things in our trade agreements. And they require us to fork over too much technology. There are two crises looming right now from this trade imbalance.

1.) The dollar could inflate and ruin the Chinese economy

2.) The Yuan could deflate and ruin the U.S. economy

Either is pretty bad and more balanced trade could prevent that. So, like I said, get therapy :).

ETA: Seeing as that was the only topic of debate on my list, I'm guessing the rest of my points were reasonable.
 
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People throw the term "loophole" around all the time, and I have no idea what it means. There are no tax loopholes. There are deductions and credits. Is that what they are talking about?

There is one obvious loophole:

Company A is based in the USA. Company A then creates Company B which is based in a PO box in the Cayman Islands and Company C. Company C starts manufacturing widgets in China for $100 each. Company C then sells widgets to Company B for $100. Company B then sells the widgets to Company A for $700. Company A then sells widgets in its stores for $750 and makes effectively no money and pays no taxes on profit.
 
There is one obvious loophole:

Company A is based in the USA. Company A then creates Company B which is based in a PO box in the Cayman Islands and Company C. Company C starts manufacturing widgets in China for $100 each. Company C then sells widgets to Company B for $100. Company B then sells the widgets to Company A for $700. Company A then sells widgets in its stores for $750 and makes effectively no money and pays no taxes on profit.

I wonder why all companies don't do this?
 
There is one obvious loophole:

Company A is based in the USA. Company A then creates Company B which is based in a PO box in the Cayman Islands and Company C. Company C starts manufacturing widgets in China for $100 each. Company C then sells widgets to Company B for $100. Company B then sells the widgets to Company A for $700. Company A then sells widgets in its stores for $750 and makes effectively no money and pays no taxes on profit.

I am not really very familiar with international taxes but I suspect the IRS would try to claim these were sham transactions and tax the gain.
 
I am not really very familiar with international taxes but I suspect the IRS would try to claim these were sham transactions and tax the gain.

Indeed. However corporations spend billions of dollars on armies of tax lawyers who come up with schemes to get around it.
 

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