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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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This thread was started back in February of this year, after previous threads had rumbled on for quite a bit of the previous year. As we near 7,000 posts over the length of the thread so far, it's maybe time to take stock and wonder how badly the deniers have failed.

One way would be to take note of various works which have dealt with the ostensible subject of this thread, that have been published since the start of 2011. It would be hard to keep track of literally everything that has appeared, so let's settle with the books that have actually come into my possession.

  • Altman, I.A. (ed), Kholokost na territorii SSSR. Entsiklopediia. Moscow: Rosspen, 2011
  • Baum, Herwig, Varianten des Terrors. Ein Vergleich zwischen der deutschen und rumänischen Besatzungsverwaltung in der Sowjetunion 1941-1944. Berlin: Metropol, 2011
  • Benz, Angelika, Der Henkersknecht: Der Prozess gegen John (Iwan) Demjanjuk in München, Berlin: Metropol, 2011
  • Blatman, Daniel, The Death Marches: The Final Phase of Nazi Genocide. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 2011
  • Buser, Verena, Ueberleben von Kindern und Jugendlichen in den Konzentrationslagern Sachsenhausen, Auschwitz und Bergen-Belsen. Berlin: Metropol, 2011
  • Cesarani, David and Eric J. Sundquist (eds), After the Holocaust. Challenging the Myth of Silence. London: Routledge, 2011
  • Cole, Tim, Traces of the Holocaust. Journeying in and out of the Ghettos. London: Continuum, 2011
  • Cramer, John, Belsen-Trial 1945. Der Lüneberger Prozess gegen Wachpersonal der Konzentrationslager Auschwitz und Bergen-Belsen. Göttingen: Wallstein, 2011
  • Curilla, Wolfgang, Der Judenmord in Polen und die Ordnungspolizei 1939-1945. Paderborn: Ferdinand Schöningh, 2011
  • Dieckmann, Christoph, Deutsche Besatzungspolitik in Litauen 1941-1944. Göttingen: Wallstein, 2011
  • Friedman, Jonathan C. (ed), The Routledge History of the Holocaust. London: Routledge, 2011
  • Friedrich, Klaus-Peter (ed), Die Verfolgung und Ermordung der europäischen Juden durch das nationalsozialistischen Deutschland 1933-1945. Bd 4: Polen September 1939-Juli 1941. Munich: Oldenbourg, 2011
  • Fritz, Stephen G., Ostkrieg: Hitler’s War of Extermination in the East. Lexington: University Press of Kentucky, 2011
  • Gross, Jan Tomasz, Zlote zniwa. Rzecz o tym, co sie dzialo na obrzezach zaglady Zydow. Krakow: Znak, 2011
  • Hoppe, Bert and Hildrun Glass (eds), Die Verfolgung und Ermordung der europäischen Juden durch das nationalsozialistischen Deutschland 1933-1945. Bd 7: Sowjetunion mit annektierten Gebiete I. Munich: Oldenbourg, 2011
  • Kakel, Carroll P., The American West and the Nazi East: A Comparative and Interpretive Perspective. London: Palgrave Macmillan, 2011
  • Langbehn, Volker and Mohammad Salama (eds), German Colonialism: Race, The Holocaust, and Postwar Germany. New York: Columbia University Press, 2011
  • Mallmann, Klaus-Michel, Andrej Angrick, Jürgen Matthäus, Martin Cüppers (eds), Die ‘Ereignismeldungen UdSSR’ 1941. Dokumente der Einsatzgruppen in der Sowjetunion. Darmstadt: Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft, 2011
  • Michman, Dan, The Emergence of Jewish Ghettos During the Holocaust, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2011
  • Morsch, Günter, Bertrand Perz, Astrid Ley (eds), Neue Studien zu nationalsozialistischen Massentötungen durch Giftgas, Berlin: Metropol, 2011
  • Neitzel, Sönke and Harald Welzer, Soldaten: Protokolle vom Kämpfen, Töten und Sterben. Frankfurt am Main: Fischer, 2011
  • Reichelt, Katrin, Lettland unter deutscher Besatzung 1941-1944. Der lettische Anteil am Holocaust. Berlin: Metropol, 2011
  • Rein, Leonid, The Kings and the Pawns: Collaboration in Byelorussia During World War II. Oxford: Berghahn, 2011
  • Rosenfeld, Alvin H., The End of the Holocaust. Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 2011
  • Verbeeck, Georgi and Beate Kosmala (eds), Facing the Catastrophe: Jews and Non-Jews in Europe During World War II. Oxford: Berg, 2011
  • Wefing, Heinrich, Der Fall Demjanjuk: der letzte grosse NS-Prozess. Das Leben, der Prozess, das Urteil. Berlin: Beck, 2011
  • Wette, Wolfram, Karl Jäger: Mörder der litauischen Juden. Frankfurt am Main: Fischer, 2011

The deniers should congratulate themselves on their Canute-like success. Despite thousands of posts from the deniers, not one book less has been published in the past year, not one college course less has been taught, not a single historian has decided to give up and do something else, in short: they are making absolutely no headway whatsoever.

Some of the deniers, meanwhile, are rather given to pronouncing about what historians of the Holocaust supposedly say, but seem woefully out of touch with what those historians are actually writing about and what they might be saying.

I make no apologies for the inclusion of titles in German, Polish and Russian. The very fact that Russian historians can collaborate on a 1000+ page encyclopedia of the Holocaust in the Soviet Union is a rather telling sign (I'm told it will also be translated into English in the near future). Jan Gross's essay Golden Harvest will appear next spring in English. The Germans continue to produce a mini-avalance of primary source editions, monographs and dissertations on the subject, which are often required reading for serious students in the field.

In the next few months, a slew of new titles are due out, so the list can only grow. It will be fun to update it and observe how the deniers have failed to make any progess in the meantime.
 
This thread was started back in February of this year, after previous threads had rumbled on for quite a bit of the previous year. As we near 7,000 posts over the length of the thread so far, it's maybe time to take stock and wonder how badly the deniers have failed.

One way would be to take note of various works which have dealt with the ostensible subject of this thread, that have been published since the start of 2011. It would be hard to keep track of literally everything that has appeared, so let's settle with the books that have actually come into my possession.

  • Altman, I.A. (ed), Kholokost na territorii SSSR. Entsiklopediia. Moscow: Rosspen, 2011
  • Baum, Herwig, Varianten des Terrors. Ein Vergleich zwischen der deutschen und rumänischen Besatzungsverwaltung in der Sowjetunion 1941-1944. Berlin: Metropol, 2011
  • Benz, Angelika, Der Henkersknecht: Der Prozess gegen John (Iwan) Demjanjuk in München, Berlin: Metropol, 2011
  • Blatman, Daniel, The Death Marches: The Final Phase of Nazi Genocide. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 2011
  • Buser, Verena, Ueberleben von Kindern und Jugendlichen in den Konzentrationslagern Sachsenhausen, Auschwitz und Bergen-Belsen. Berlin: Metropol, 2011
  • Cesarani, David and Eric J. Sundquist (eds), After the Holocaust. Challenging the Myth of Silence. London: Routledge, 2011
  • Cole, Tim, Traces of the Holocaust. Journeying in and out of the Ghettos. London: Continuum, 2011
  • Cramer, John, Belsen-Trial 1945. Der Lüneberger Prozess gegen Wachpersonal der Konzentrationslager Auschwitz und Bergen-Belsen. Göttingen: Wallstein, 2011
  • Curilla, Wolfgang, Der Judenmord in Polen und die Ordnungspolizei 1939-1945. Paderborn: Ferdinand Schöningh, 2011
  • Dieckmann, Christoph, Deutsche Besatzungspolitik in Litauen 1941-1944. Göttingen: Wallstein, 2011
  • Friedman, Jonathan C. (ed), The Routledge History of the Holocaust. London: Routledge, 2011
  • Friedrich, Klaus-Peter (ed), Die Verfolgung und Ermordung der europäischen Juden durch das nationalsozialistischen Deutschland 1933-1945. Bd 4: Polen September 1939-Juli 1941. Munich: Oldenbourg, 2011
  • Fritz, Stephen G., Ostkrieg: Hitler’s War of Extermination in the East. Lexington: University Press of Kentucky, 2011
  • Gross, Jan Tomasz, Zlote zniwa. Rzecz o tym, co sie dzialo na obrzezach zaglady Zydow. Krakow: Znak, 2011
  • Hoppe, Bert and Hildrun Glass (eds), Die Verfolgung und Ermordung der europäischen Juden durch das nationalsozialistischen Deutschland 1933-1945. Bd 7: Sowjetunion mit annektierten Gebiete I. Munich: Oldenbourg, 2011
  • Kakel, Carroll P., The American West and the Nazi East: A Comparative and Interpretive Perspective. London: Palgrave Macmillan, 2011
  • Langbehn, Volker and Mohammad Salama (eds), German Colonialism: Race, The Holocaust, and Postwar Germany. New York: Columbia University Press, 2011
  • Mallmann, Klaus-Michel, Andrej Angrick, Jürgen Matthäus, Martin Cüppers (eds), Die ‘Ereignismeldungen UdSSR’ 1941. Dokumente der Einsatzgruppen in der Sowjetunion. Darmstadt: Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft, 2011
  • Michman, Dan, The Emergence of Jewish Ghettos During the Holocaust, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2011
  • Morsch, Günter, Bertrand Perz, Astrid Ley (eds), Neue Studien zu nationalsozialistischen Massentötungen durch Giftgas, Berlin: Metropol, 2011
  • Neitzel, Sönke and Harald Welzer, Soldaten: Protokolle vom Kämpfen, Töten und Sterben. Frankfurt am Main: Fischer, 2011
  • Reichelt, Katrin, Lettland unter deutscher Besatzung 1941-1944. Der lettische Anteil am Holocaust. Berlin: Metropol, 2011
  • Rein, Leonid, The Kings and the Pawns: Collaboration in Byelorussia During World War II. Oxford: Berghahn, 2011
  • Rosenfeld, Alvin H., The End of the Holocaust. Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 2011
  • Verbeeck, Georgi and Beate Kosmala (eds), Facing the Catastrophe: Jews and Non-Jews in Europe During World War II. Oxford: Berg, 2011
  • Wefing, Heinrich, Der Fall Demjanjuk: der letzte grosse NS-Prozess. Das Leben, der Prozess, das Urteil. Berlin: Beck, 2011
  • Wette, Wolfram, Karl Jäger: Mörder der litauischen Juden. Frankfurt am Main: Fischer, 2011

The deniers should congratulate themselves on their Canute-like success. Despite thousands of posts from the deniers, not one book less has been published in the past year, not one college course less has been taught, not a single historian has decided to give up and do something else, in short: they are making absolutely no headway whatsoever.

Some of the deniers, meanwhile, are rather given to pronouncing about what historians of the Holocaust supposedly say, but seem woefully out of touch with what those historians are actually writing about and what they might be saying.

I make no apologies for the inclusion of titles in German, Polish and Russian. The very fact that Russian historians can collaborate on a 1000+ page encyclopedia of the Holocaust in the Soviet Union is a rather telling sign (I'm told it will also be translated into English in the near future). Jan Gross's essay Golden Harvest will appear next spring in English. The Germans continue to produce a mini-avalance of primary source editions, monographs and dissertations on the subject, which are often required reading for serious students in the field.

In the next few months, a slew of new titles are due out, so the list can only grow. It will be fun to update it and observe how the deniers have failed to make any progess in the meantime.

Well, I had to bite on this list, and 'The End of the Holohoax' looked promising, so I checked Amazon for some perspective, but it hasn't been reviewed.

Here is a clip from the publisher's blurb ....

"He contrasts these (Hollywood frivolities) with sobering representations by Holocaust witnesses such as Jean Améry, Primo Levi, Elie Wiesel, and Imre Kertész."

So, there you have it, more degenerate lies, as here is one of the "sobering representations" of Elie Wiesel .....

"Babies were thrown into the air and the machine gunners used them as targets"

Even hoax scholars like the author Alvin Rosenfeld cannot own up to the absurd lies of Wiesel.
 
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... is not a book, nor does it discuss Saggy's fantastical global Jewish conspiracy which controls the media, academia, and everything else. It merely whines about *one* supposed Jew's experiences in Israel.

Try again.
.

Yet he was assassinated by the Mossad.
 
Well, I had to bite on this list, and 'The End of the Holohoax' looked promising, so I checked Amazon for some perspective, but it hasn't been reviewed.

Here is a clip from the publisher's blurb ....

"He contrasts these (Hollywood frivolities) with sobering representations by Holocaust witnesses such as Jean Améry, Primo Levi, Elie Wiesel, and Imre Kertész."

So, there you have it, more degenerate lies, as here is one of the "sobering representations" of Elie Wiesel .....

"Babies were thrown into the air and the machine gunners used them as targets"

Even hoax scholars like the author Alvin Rosenfeld cannot own up to the absurd lies of Wiesel.

So, nothing but more incredulity and hot air. Can't say I'm surprised. Could you get on with failing to prove the person I highlighted in Nick's list of 200+ witnesses to the holocaust isn't what he claims he is?
 
Yet he was assassinated by the Mossad.

Do you think non sequiturs are proper arguments?

Also, prove it please. I know that it is claimed on multiple anti-semitic websites, but that doesn't constitute proof.
 
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Yet he was assassinated by the Mossad.
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Nope, that's another degenerate lie.

Unless you happen to have more proof of that than you do about dishonesty on the part of THHP?





No?



How very ... expected.


Looks like the yolk's on you, ***again***.
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So, nothing but more incredulity and hot air. Can't say I'm surprised. Could you get on with failing to prove the person I highlighted in Nick's list of 200+ witnesses to the holocaust isn't what he claims he is?
Essentially the argument that these guys are making is two-fold, first, that they can only handle one thing at a time, second, that they are not competent to pick a name from a list. Strange.
 
Well, I had to bite on this list, and 'The End of the Holohoax' looked promising, so I checked Amazon for some perspective, but it hasn't been reviewed.

Here is a clip from the publisher's blurb ....

"He contrasts these (Hollywood frivolities) with sobering representations by Holocaust witnesses such as Jean Améry, Primo Levi, Elie Wiesel, and Imre Kertész."

So, there you have it, more degenerate lies, as here is one of the "sobering representations" of Elie Wiesel .....

"Babies were thrown into the air and the machine gunners used them as targets"

Even hoax scholars like the author Alvin Rosenfeld cannot own up to the absurd lies of Wiesel.

Here is a question for you Nick - how many of the above esteemed authors of scholarly works on the holohoax objected, publicly or even privately, to the grotesque lies that Irene Zisblatt told in the movie 'The Last Days'. How many objected to the academy award Spielberg received for that grotesque movie? How many objected to Wielsel's grotesque lies? Meullers?

I'll answer for you - none of them did. They all explicitly or implicitly endorse the lies of Wiesel, Zisblatt, Meuller, Wiernik, et. al. The authors on your list are total frauds, degenerates the likes of which the world has never before seen, complicit in the greatest and most destructive hoax of all time.
 
Blah blah blah

Saggy, when are you going to get to the Jewish witnesses of the holocaust that you have been whining about for the past weeks, even though they were presented to you immediately upon request? I mean, I took the trouble to highlight one name for you as you were apparently unable to do so yourself. So, get to it. Or are you a coward?
 
Do you think non sequiturs are proper arguments?

Also, prove it please. I know that it is claimed on multiple anti-semitic websites, but that doesn't constitute proof.

Claiming antisemitism is just as lame as bringing up Hitler or Nazis. Grow up.
 
Here is a question for you Nick - how many of the above esteemed authors of scholarly works on the holohoax objected, publicly or even privately, to the grotesque lies that Irene Zisblatt told in the movie 'The Last Days'. How many objected to the academy award Spielberg received for that grotesque movie? How many objected to Wielsel's grotesque lies? Meullers?

I'll answer for you - none of them did. They all explicitly or implicitly endorse the lies of Wiesel, Zisblatt, Meuller, Wiernik, et. al. The authors on your list are total frauds, degenerates the likes of which the world has never before seen, complicit in the greatest and most destructive hoax of all time.

Because lying seems to be a Khazar compulsion.
 
Claiming antisemitism is just as lame as bringing up Hitler or Nazis. Grow up.
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Except that you and the sites you quote *are* anti-semitic, and this is a thread about Holocaust denial so mentions of Hitler and Nazis are kinda par for the course...
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Because lying seems to be a Khazar compulsion.
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If one is an anti-semitic Hitler admirer and Nazi apologist, it might seem so.

And isn't it strange you should keep whining about lies given your own history of posting them?
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Indeed, proof and evidence are not the same thing.

As was pointed out at least twice in previous pages, there is copious evidence of a Hitler order because numerous contemporary written sources refer to it (especially statements by Himmler). There is no absence of evidence regarding the Hitler order. The order itself is absent, but this never stopped any other historian or scholar inferring the existence of something that was missing from other sources.

There is by contrast a total absence of evidence supporting the frequently made claim that JFK was assassinated as part of a conspiracy.

Fascinating. But not what we're talking about.

But hey, you're really rocking now.

I gotta take them as they come. I can't just ring up a holocaust historian and ask them to say something stupid.


All of two hits, both from non-professionals (those HDOT pages weren't written by Lipstadt herself, something I know for a fact).

Lipstadt should at least read them. She endorses them. And if you know for a fact these pages weren't written by Lipstadt, how do you know that they weren't written by a historian?


I'd suggest you order up a copy of David Hackett Fischer's Historian's Fallacies and read what he had to say about 'absence of evidence is not evidence of absence' way back in the early 70s.

Does he say it's a valid maxim for holocaust research but a joke when applied anywhere else? Then I'm not interested.
 
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