Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Mary_H]

there is a little-known codicil to this treaty that allows a country to refuse extradition if the people requesting extradition are batscheiss crazy. I'm pretty sure this is the reason knox will never be extradited.

rofl!

 

[Mary_H]

Wow Mach I'm beginning to worry about your mental stability. You are now calling AK to be the equivalent of terrorists.

Yes, the Al-Quaeda reference was unnecessary, extreme and frankly pretty shocking.

 

[LashL]

Are you able to believe that I don't believe in she-devils nor witches (and that nobody does in Perugia neither) and that I see simply evidence of involvement in murder?

Frankly, no. Based solely upon your posts, it seems quite clear that you do believe in she-devils and witches as does a certain segment of the population in Perugia. Otherwise, why would Perugian lawyers raise such nonsense as the entire basis of their submissions at the second trial? They certainly didn't lead any evidence; just innuendo and appeals to emotion and appeals to witchcraft, and appeals to patriotism. And otherwise, why would you ignore the reality that there was never any compelling evidence against Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito to implicate them in Ms. Kercher's murder, and cling to your pre-determined view that they are guilty, when there is no compelling evidence to support that view?

My idea of justice in this case is to make clear that the issue about Amanda Knox is only about justice. Meredith, and the truth.

Based solely upon your posts, it actually seems that you are actively campaigning against the truth, and actively campaigning against justice. Justice for Ms. Kercher does not involve convicting people who have not been proven to be guilty, yet that is what you are campaigning for.

The claims about whitch hunting, face saving, corruptions, everything of the innocentisti repertioire, are lies.

Yet, it is the prosecution and the lawyers for the Kerchers and Lumumba who introduced the witch-hunting and evil and she-devils and satanic ritual lies into the mix, because they thought that it would appeal to the local Italians, and they got a conviction at first instance based on that nonsense. It didn't work at the second trial, thankfully, but you cannot honestly or legitimately blame the introduction of those nonsensical lies on the defence, as they were tactics employed by Mignini, Comodi, Maresca, and Pacelli.

As for corruption, it was you, was it not, who has recently claimed that the Pratillo Hellmann court was corrupt, and that this is the only explanation for the acquittals of Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito?

Rationalization for covering a banal suspect of a murder. There is only a simple matter of justice.

Actually, this looks more like rationalization on the part of guilters for having held an incorrect and erroneous belief, which came about by them being manipulated by ILE, and after having held that belief for several years, they are having great difficulty dealing with the fact that it has come undone. Justice means getting it right; it does not mean holding on to false beliefs to save face. There is no "justice" in locking up people who have not been proven beyond reasonable doubt to have committed a crime, just to save face.

 

[Freddy]

Yes, the Al-Quaeda reference was unnecessary, extreme and frankly pretty shocking.

I'm not sure if he means Italy should retaliate by harboring al Qaeda members, or just refusing to extradite. But if they are caught committing terrorism in Italy, why would the US want them? The question of what to do with terrorist detainees is kind of a big headache in the US.

 

[Poppy1016]

Just once I am going to break my vow to myself that I had written my last post about this case. I fully expect it will be fruitless, but I consider my intent analogous to reaching out to a drowning man, albeit one with inclinations towards malevolence who would just as soon pull me into the water with him.

Speaking simply and directly, Machiavelli, your posting and your stance are like those of a person who has completely taken leave of reason, and given into obsession. Posters here with vastly greater intellects than yours have gone after your posts like so many sledgehammers decimating flies, and yet you dogmatically persist.

You are 180 degrees opposite to the truth of this matter in *every single* word that you post. Your mission has long ago passed the frontier of being merely Quixotic, and seems more closely akin to suicidal. For your own mental health, I urge you to seriously consider taking an extended break from discussing this case. Seriously.

It is over. You are like Doctor Frankenstein performing a post-mortem on your grotesque and disastrous creation.

Perfectly said. Bravo

 

[Diocletus]

let's say, some members of Al Qaida, as a retaliation, so that you feel the same kind of approach, and that would be "justice served" to me.

Yes. This is a great idea. Keep the al Qaeda guys in your country. LOL. This is like saying "I'm going to keep this grenade in my house because I don't like you and don't want you to have it."

If you're so pissed off, then I suppose we can let you have your mafiosos back. You can also keep the Jersey Shore kids. There. Feel better?

 

[LashL]

Lack of probable cause would be the reason for refusal, and the treaty allows for it. It isn't a silly reason; it's a matter of due process. You see, in the United States we require actual evidence before you can even have a criminal trial, much less lock someone up for 26 years. I know you think that robust due process protections, as well as standards of investigation and evidence, are "silly reasons" not to imprison people. We in the United States politely disagree. And despite our higher standards for evidence and investigation (in this country, Stefanoni would not have a job today, nor would Mignini), we still have innocent people in prison.

It is similar here in Canada. The Canadian government would not extradite a Canadian citizen in these circumstances without a robust demonstration of 'probable cause' and without a robust demonstration of the citizen's rights having been respected from the outset. That includes such things as being able to demonstrate what we call here "reasonable and probable grounds" for arrest, and includes such things as not interrogating the citizen in violation of his/her rights to counsel, etc. If Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito were Canadian citizens, I sincerely doubt that they would be extradited to Italy in the circumstances of this case, as their treatment at the hands of ILE would not pass constitutional muster here.

 

[Swimfish]

(SNIP) Even if Stefanoni has "lied" - but it is far from being proven - this is easilly explainable by the prosecution not wanting the knife to be discussed in the preliminary hearing. They had no interest in releasing all their information in advance. This is not evidence of conspiracy, this is not an argument to claim the evidence doesn't exist because you discover that a person can "lie". Everybody can lie. The law enforcement officers don't represent anything here really, they are just witnesses, don't have a "special standard".

This is a very deeply disturbing statement. It is not that Stefanoni can lie it is that in fact she did lie. If she had not performed the correct quantification and it doesn't "really matter" then the answer is "I don't know", or "I'll look it up", or in this case the reading was "too low". By the way 0 (null) is a number that falls within the set of numbers that would produce a reading of "too low".

Bottom line, an expert witness who makes ◊◊◊◊ up on the stand is not a reliable witness under any circumstance. If this had happened in the UK or Germany or the US the result would have been the same. The courts (e.g., Hellmann) are fully entitled to disregard anything that expert has to say because we can never know when she is telling the truth and making more ◊◊◊◊ up. It appears that this court has done just that. That the PM probably with your encouragement allowed her to continue presenting this evidence is yet another example of pure incompetence on his part.

 

[LashL]

if the US decide to protect a murderer

You might want to re-think continuing to call someone a murderer who has not been proven to be such.

...I would be pleased if Italy hosts, let's say, some members of Al Qaida, as a retaliation, so that you feel the same kind of approach, and that would be "justice served" to me.

That's just jaw-dropping.

 

[smkovalinksy]

Neither do I. And this is the whole point. Are you able to believe that I don't believe in she-devils nor witches (and that nobody does in Perugia neither) and that I see simply evidence of involvement in murder?
My whole point is having people understand this simple fact. My idea of justice in this case is to make clear that the issue about Amanda Knox is only about justice. Meredith, and the truth. There is no other value in play in my mind except this, and the right thing to do is show these are the values in play. The claims about whitch hunting, face saving, corruptions, everything of the innocentisti repertioire, are lies. Rationalization for covering a banal suspect of a murder. There is only a simple matter of justice.

I think it would be better were you truly a believer in witches and Luciferinas.
As things stand, you show poor means/ends reasoning, and weak deduction and inference skills. Justice has been served. The murderer is behind bars, and the wrongly accused have been acquitted by a highly esteemed judge. Now, what more could you want in the name of justice? Or is this about something more than justice, despite your protestations?

 

[Mary_H]

This is the most comically absurd argument I've seen since the verdict. Either Hellmann's decision as a whole is legitimate or it's not. If she's already a proven liar then she's also proven innocent because these points are bound to the same verdict. If instead we must wait and see on the question of innocence then we must also wait and see on the question of calunnia.

Machiavelli's position on Amanda:

• Amanda is a liar, in his opinion.
• Amanda is a proven liar because Hellmann found her guilty of calunnia, which involves lying.
• Machiavelli's claim that Amanda is a liar is therefore "legitimized," because the judge's opinion agrees with Machiavelli's opinion.
• Machiavelli will probably go on calling Amanda a liar even if she is acquitted of calunnia, because, he says, he relies on his own judgment, not just the judgment of the court.
• His opinion that Amanda is a liar will persist, even if no longer "legitimatized" by the court. Machiavelli will always be of the opinion that Amanda is a liar.

This position is logically acceptable to me. We can make the same thing work for our position on Rudy Guede (before the murder):

• Rudy was a petty criminal, in our opinion.
• Rudy was not a proven petty criminal because he was never found guilty of his crimes.
• Our claim that Rudy was a petty criminal was not "legitimized," because no court's opinion agrees with our opinion.
• We will probably go on calling Rudy a petty criminal even if he is never prosecuted for his petty crimes, because, we say, we rely on own own judgment, not just the judgment of the court.
• Our opinion that Rudy was a petty criminal will persist, even though never "legitimatized" by the court. We will always always be of the opinion that Rudy was a petty criminal.

 

[Swimfish]

[SNIP] LOL. What a bunch of malarkey.

Hey in my house that's Mr. Malarky and there are people in jail who thought it was funny to have someone with that name investigating their crimes.

 

[Kaosium]

By whom?

'Against stupidity the very gods themselves contend in vain!'

Machiavelli, this isn't an isolated incident, the same thing is happening in the Scazzi case, it's delusional there won't be consequences. This is too high profile and it's ridiculous to pretend the truth won't come to light even in Italy, given time. Just exactly what it is indicative of outside a corrupt dysfunctional system is still worth exploring, but as I've said before, that system is doomed. I've told you that before, just remember I don't necessarily think in terms of weeks or months sometimes.

There's no trial by ordeal anymore, you don't get to burn witches! That such a thing could happen at least twice in the space of mere years isn't going to be forgotten. Do you remember who 'won' the Scopes case in the United States circa 1925? Bryant did, the teacher had to pay ten bucks or something, much like the 'victory' regarding the calunnia charge. Who would you say in the end actually 'won' and who inherited the wind?

'He who brings trouble on his family will inherit only wind, and the fool will be servant to the wise.'

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

I consider the innocentisti as a bunch of irrational witch-hunters, and a dangerous wave of ignorants who protect and cover murderers and criminals, and claim a license to kill in my home, see it like that. I am rather annoyed by the creation of "agencies" that protect people who murder in my territory and spread lies and mafia campaigns to protect them.

Plus the Masons. Don't forget the Masons in league with the Mafia and the Marriot supertanker and the CIA who are working together to destroy poor, innocent Mignini...

...by spreading conspiracy theories!

 

[Kaosium]

I consider the innocentisti as a bunch of irrational witch-hunters, and a dangerous wave of ignorants who protect and cover murderers and criminals, and claim a license to kill in my home, see it like that. I am rather annoyed by the creation of "agencies" that protect people who murder in my territory and spread lies and mafia campaigns to protect them.

I wonder what you're really afraid of. What frightens you about this 'agency' that took this 'murderess' nicknamed 'Bambi' away from Italy? Shouldn't you feel relief that Bambi won't be able to escape Capenne to nibble on your shrubberies? Or break down in tears, the most potent weapon she ever employed in Italy? Perhaps you should contribute to FOA for relieving you of this vicious fawn!

 

[RandyN]

I wonder what you're really afraid of. What frightens you about this 'agency' that took this 'murderess' nicknamed 'Bambi' away from Italy? Shouldn't you feel relief that Bambi won't be able to escape Capenne to nibble on your shrubberies? Or break down in tears, the most potent weapon she ever employed in Italy? Perhaps you should contribute to FOA for relieving you of this vicious fawn!



[qimg]http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/pc/Amanda+Knox+Amanda+Knox+Returns+Court+Bpmnxi4h5vkl.jpg[/qimg]

Yes, and turn up the damn heat in your court rooms!

 

[Draca]

Just once I am going to break my vow to myself that I had written my last post about this case. I fully expect it will be fruitless, but I consider my intent analogous to reaching out to a drowning man, albeit one with inclinations towards malevolence who would just as soon pull me into the water with him.

Speaking simply and directly, Machiavelli, your posting and your stance are like those of a person who has completely taken leave of reason, and given into obsession. Posters here with vastly greater intellects than yours have gone after your posts like so many sledgehammers decimating flies, and yet you dogmatically persist.

You are 180 degrees opposite to the truth of this matter in *every single* word that you post. Your mission has long ago passed the frontier of being merely Quixotic, and seems more closely akin to suicidal. For your own mental health, I urge you to seriously consider taking an extended break from discussing this case. Seriously.

It is over. You are like Doctor Frankenstein performing a post-mortem on your grotesque and disastrous creation.

JS202,

Great Post! So if Machi is Don Quixote slipping into insanity I guess Amanda Knox is his enemy that is really just a windmill?

"Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished. Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them. With their spoils we shall begin to be rich for this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."

 

[LashL]

What I'm getting from the last couple of pages of Machiavelli's posts is a very strong impression of the "Baghdad Bob" character. That is, denial of that which is plain as day in front of one's face, and insistence upon that which is not only not at all demonstrated by the objective facts and evidence, but which flies in the face of the demonstrable facts and evidence. I'm not seeing anything in his/her posts that even remotely resembles reality; instead his/her posts seem to be comprised of nothing but abject denial in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Of course, we will all see how it all plays out once the written reasons for judgment are produced by the Pratillo Hellmann court, but the level of anger and extreme lack of objectivity demonstrated in Machiavelli's posts over the past couple of pages certainly strikes me as rather bizarre in the interim. Machiavelli, what is it that feeds such anger on your part? What is it that prevents you from looking at the facts and evidence objectively? I would seriously like to know because I think it would be useful for my own (broader) purposes to try to understand the 'guilter' ** mindset and I admit that I don't understand it at all thusfar in this case.

ETA: **"Guilter" in this context refers to people who are just random people on the Internet and such, no relation to Ms. Kercher's family who might have a vested interest in the case, etc., but people who, despite having no vested interest, have acted for the past several years to try to influence the conviction of Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito, despite there being little to no evidence against them, and despite them both being acquitted at the court of second instance, still run around claiming that they're guilty, guilty, guilty, etc. and trying to influence public opinion in that regard.

 

[RandyN]

You might want to re-think continuing to call someone a murderer who has not been proven to be such.




That's just jaw-dropping.

Originally Posted by Kaosium 
No, like I've told you before, the Italian Justice system and the reputation of Perugia is on 'trial.'

Machevelli answers….By whom?

And I chime in….By The European Court Of Human Rights that’s who….or soon to be so anyway. Which will come as no surprise to Italy since they already hold the distinction for most Human Rights violations of any European country. And not by some small margin but by the sheer number of recorded violations charged against the Italian Judicial system. Guess who leads the world for violations of Human Rights in the areas of right to a fair trial and the right to a speedy trial…. ??? Bizzazz times up …that would be Italy. Its notable that for one examined time period Italy is charged for 2, 012 violations while during the exact same time period Russia had a total of 150 violations. You don’t have to believe me the records are online available for everyone to see.
Originally Posted by Machiavelli 
...I would be pleased if Italy hosts, let's say, some members of Al Qaida, as a retaliation, so that you feel the same kind of approach, and that would be "justice served" to me.


LashL replies….That's just jaw-dropping.

It is even more jaw dropping that YummiMac has made references about Al Qaeda and his support of such in other posts at other sites where he chooses to share “his ideas”. Someone with free time may want to search that out. Try here, IIP for starters.


Yummi is close to Mignini…very close. This is why you hear the same convoluted ideas and illogical argument and may wonder about the ringing bells you are hearing. Yummy is looking for a way to save his hero Mignini…and he is running argument past what he considers the most knowledgeable group in the whole world to see if any of it “sticks”.

He wonders how can Stefanoni get away from the false evidence she provided… most likely at the behest of Biondo, a shame that he has strangely disappeared from the case during the appeal though.

Notice how you “hear “ much table pounding in YummyMacs arguments but no real pieces of evidence? There is a reason for that…and its because it is all that’s left of their argument.

Even if AK or RS lawyers are afraid to go after these thugs they must still face The Court Of Human Rights. And we all know how that will turn out…given Italy’s “high” standing with them. And so Yummi Mac can blather on with ridiculous claims and high sounding themes but the law is coming after those who wish to pervert justice and who use the laws one way for others and another way for them.

Knox could never be extradited to a country who actually has a court that allows defendants to be called witch or she devil. And that this countries court allowed those slanders without objection by any judge and certainly without any proofs or facts in that regard then how can any civilized court extradite anyone for any charge given this courts own behavior? There is no need to talk about treaties when one party in the treaty is a known violator of Human Rights and in addition whose prosecutors and judges still believe in witches and even Mason devil worship and call and imply in open court these beliefs…its barbaric.

Italy …the world has had a four year glimpse at the little perversion you call justice. I’ve said it before that the best you could do now is to shut up and hope the rest of the world forgets all the misdeeds that took place in Perugia. But that is impossible! You went too far past sanity…you will learn now that world of law leaves little room for raw emotion. You will pay dearly for falsely accusing and falsely jailing these clearly innocent defendants.

Mostly in this case they should focus in on why Rudy Guede was free to roam and steal and deal and rape and kill. And why even after incontrovertible proof that he alone killed Meredith Kercher, that police and prosecutor went to extraordinary measures that include lies and falsification of evidence and destroying and or failing to protect evidence that would be helpful to the defense of this crime. Only then will justice for Meredith, and for the falsely accused, and for all of Italy be served. Until that time Italy and Perugia in particular will be run by a mob who is the moral equivalent of the Mafia…maybe less.

 

[Mary_H]

There is a new thread, in case anyone wants to help. Looking for suggestions about how to help the Kercher family and Patrick realize they are ultimately on the same side as Amanda and Raffaele.