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Why science and religion are not compatible

Resume said:
The end to suffering, if it comes from anywhere, will likely entail doing something.
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Ummmm ... yes.

That's exactly what Buddhism says.

The Noble Eightfold Path

1. Right View
2. Right Intention
3. Right Speech
4. Right Action
5. Right Livelihood
6. Right Effort
7. Right Mindfulness
8. Right Concentration

The Noble Eightfold Path describes the way to the end of suffering, as it was laid out by Siddhartha Gautama. It is a practical guideline to ethical and mental development with the goal of freeing the individual from attachments and delusions; and it finally leads to understanding the truth about all things. Together with the Four Noble Truths it constitutes the gist of Buddhism. Great emphasis is put on the practical aspect, because it is only through practice that one can attain a higher level of existence and finally reach Nirvana. The eight aspects of the path are not to be understood as a sequence of single steps, instead they are highly interdependent principles that have to be seen in relationship with each other.​


Enlightenment doesn't come about because you read something, or heard something. No teacher can bestow it upon you. No God can grant it to you. No savior will intervene on your behalf.

Enlightenment only comes about by doing something [see above]. It is actually the opposite of Christianity, which downplays the value of "good works". Buddhism and enlightenment is all about "good works".

It's all about "doing something".
 
It is actually the opposite of Christianity, which downplays the value of "good works".
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No, it doesn't. It merely has a different definition for "good works". Ever hear of pennance?
 
Dinwar said:
Can we PLEASE move on beyond the question of whether or not an atheist can have any knowledge of what a religion says it believes?
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What a religion says it believes?
Are religions capable of belief?
There are Roman Catholics who believe the pope can be wrong. Go figure.

They are guided more by those passages in Matthew cited above then they are by any standard-issue dogma.

There are people who say they belong to a certain religion, while not believing everything that church doctrine says they should believe. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me but I don't doubt either their sanity or their ability to reason. People are complicated. Well, at least some of them are.
 
citizenzen said:
Enlightenment only comes about by doing something [see above]. It is actually the opposite of Christianity, which downplays the value of "good works". Buddhism and enlightenment is all about "good works".
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Are you saying all of Christianity downplays good works?

Because the examples you cited from Matthew are all about "good works," aren't they?
 
citizenzen said:
Buddhism and enlightenment is all about "good works".

It's all about "doing something".
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This enlightenment of which you speak, these good works . . . do you have an example say, on the scale of someone like Norman Borlaug?
 
Minoosh said:
What a religion says it believes?
Are religions capable of belief?
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:rolleyes:

Fine: can we move beyond the question of whether or not an atheist can know what a religious person believes? Does that wording make you happy?

They are guided more by those passages in Matthew cited above then they are by any standard-issue dogma.
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Then they are heretics by their own religion's definition, and shouldn't call themselves Roman Catholics. Again, I have no problem with this--I'm far worse, in their eyes. It's just that it makes no sense to call yourself a Roman Catholic if you don't follow the rules of the organization.

There are people who say they belong to a certain religion, while not believing everything that church doctrine says they should believe. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me but I don't doubt either their sanity or their ability to reason. People are complicated. Well, at least some of them are.
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All of which is irrelevant. Obviously, if the person I'm talking to makes a claim that disagrees with the RCC's dogma, I'll take them at their word and test hte claim they make. The catechism does, however, offer us a convenient starting set of assumptions: we can assume that anyone who calls themselves a Roman Catholic more or less agrees with the catechism, again, for the same reason we can assume a mechanic knows what a 1/2" box-end is. We may have to revise our assessment, but it's a good starting point.

And whether any one person beleives it or not is irrelevant: the catechism is believed by some religious people, and contains beliefs that are ammenable to scientific analysis. Thus, in those cases, science and religion may in fact clash.
 
Dinwar said:
No, it doesn't. It merely has a different definition for "good works". Ever hear of pennance?
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Of course.

But here is the difference.

In Christianity, the goal is Heaven and eternal salvation. In Buddhism the goal is enlightenment, Nirvana. In Buddhism, Nirvana is only achieved by purifying one's body actions and mind through the 8-Fold Path. No amount of belief in a god or savior will make one bit of difference.

While a Christianity sees it more like this [excerpted] ...

Why won't good works get us into heaven?
or, Why does God condemn "good people" who simply don't believe in Jesus?

If one commits even a single wrong, one can never obtain perfect righteousness. Not only has one fallen short of the standard of perfection, one can never do enough good to make up for the wrong. The wrong action can't be undone; hurtful words can't be unsaid, nor can physically or emotionally painful experiences be removed from a person's memory. There are no extra acts of kindness or goodness that can be performed for extra credit, for the perfectly righteous person would have been doing those acts all along. The time spent committing the wrong action could have been spent doing good instead, but now that it's past that time can't be retrieved and used for something else.

This is the problem of sin. Everyone has done wrong, so none of us are able to stand before God on our own merits. But God loves us enough that he took it upon himself to solve this problem: in the person of Jesus Christ, he bore the punishment for all our sins, enabling him to offer us forgiveness. And God's forgiveness removes the sins of comission and omission that prevented us from being perfectly righteous, so that we may enter heaven and be in the presence of God.

Thus, even someone that we would call a "good person" can't enter heaven on their own merits, but only by accepting God's grace offered through Christ. Those who reject Christ are rejecting God's forgiveness for their sins, so their sin still prevents them from entering heaven and still merits punishment.​


Chritianity — Nobody can get to Heaven through one's own merits.

Buddhism — Nirvana is only obtained through one's own merits.

I call that a 180º difference. Your degrees of difference may vary.
 
citizenzen said:
Chritianity — Nobody can get to Heaven through one's own merits.

Buddhism — Nirvana is only obtained through one's own merits.

I call that a 180º difference. Your degrees of difference may vary.
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This nirvana, where it be?
 
citizenzen said:
Of course.

But here is the difference.

In Christianity, the goal is Heaven and eternal salvation. In Buddhism the goal is enlightenment, Nirvana. In Buddhism, Nirvana is only achieved by purifying one's body actions and mind through the 8-Fold Path. No amount of belief in a god or savior will make one bit of difference.

While a Christianity sees it more like this [excerpted] ...

Why won't good works get us into heaven?
or, Why does God condemn "good people" who simply don't believe in Jesus?

If one commits even a single wrong, one can never obtain perfect righteousness. Not only has one fallen short of the standard of perfection, one can never do enough good to make up for the wrong. The wrong action can't be undone; hurtful words can't be unsaid, nor can physically or emotionally painful experiences be removed from a person's memory. There are no extra acts of kindness or goodness that can be performed for extra credit, for the perfectly righteous person would have been doing those acts all along. The time spent committing the wrong action could have been spent doing good instead, but now that it's past that time can't be retrieved and used for something else.

This is the problem of sin. Everyone has done wrong, so none of us are able to stand before God on our own merits. But God loves us enough that he took it upon himself to solve this problem: in the person of Jesus Christ, he bore the punishment for all our sins, enabling him to offer us forgiveness. And God's forgiveness removes the sins of comission and omission that prevented us from being perfectly righteous, so that we may enter heaven and be in the presence of God.

Thus, even someone that we would call a "good person" can't enter heaven on their own merits, but only by accepting God's grace offered through Christ. Those who reject Christ are rejecting God's forgiveness for their sins, so their sin still prevents them from entering heaven and still merits punishment.​


Chritianity — Nobody can get to Heaven through one's own merits.

Buddhism — Nirvana is only obtained through one's own merits.

I call that a 180º difference. Your degrees of difference may vary.
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Christianity is not one thing. It has probably never been one thing.

You refer to only one interpretation of Christianity, one that became more important with Martin Luther. There was another interpretation of Christianity from the outset -- reflected in the letter of James and in parts of Matthew's gospel -- that depend on action, on what one does. Jesus parable of the sheep and the goats speaks directly to this issue; and James states that belief without good works is barren.
 
Ichneumonwasp, a friend of mine just identified the second of you (of that particular subspecies, anyway) to be found England, in Cheshire count.

I now return you to your regular life-or-death struggle.
 
Chritianity — Nobody can get to Heaven through one's own merits.

Buddhism — Nirvana is only obtained through one's own merits.

I call that a 180º difference. Your degrees of difference may vary.
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The debate over whether one's own work can get one into Heaven has raged throughout Christianity, and all related religions, for several centuries. The body count is actually rather depressing. What you've presented is only one view, and not really a commonly held one at that--the RCC's possition is that Jesus' sacrifice opened the way to salvation, but our own actions determine whether we get in or not.

Specifically, the RCC holds that repentance of sins and pennance (am I spelling that right?), which varies depending upon the sin, are the good work that make up for sin. This lead to the foundation of numerous monistaries in Europe--some noble would have to say so many Hail Maries to make up for the killing they did in war, so they'd pay monks to do it for them. While this no longer takes place, the sacrament of Reconciliation (often called Confession) frequently includes instructions by the priest of some action necessary to cleans one's soul of some particular sin.

No amount of belief in a god or savior will make one bit of difference.
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Nor will it in Christianity. The key is sorrow for and repentance from one's sins--an emotional reaction and some concrete action. Belief in Jesus merely allows one the possibility of salvation.
 
Resume said:
This enlightenment of which you speak, these good works . . . do you have an example say, on the scale of someone like Norman Borlaug?
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It's hard to say. The quick look at his accomplishments showed he was dedicated to solving hunger ... an incredibly noble cause.

But I didn't see much that revealed his state of mind. I can look into it later, but I really need to get a bunch done today.

Here's why there may be some question ... Buddhism is about non-attachment. Sometimes people who achieve great things are anything but unattached. They are driven, perhaps by their cause, perhaps by their ego, perhaps by something else entirely to succeed.

I just don't know enough to tell whether he is a selfless, compassionate ... enlightened person or not. But I do applaud his efforts.
 
just don't know enough to tell whether he is a selfless, compassionate ... enlightened person or not. But I do applaud his efforts.
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Ah, so saving billions is only a good thing if you don't have a personal stake in it.
 
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