Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

[Alt+F4]

Please provide evidence that businesses in the area are hurting, that the city is spending millions on police overtime and that "this is nothing but mob rule by a bunch of people that have no respect for private property or anyone living or working in that neighborhood".

Here you go:

The cost of policing the ongoing demonstrations by Occupy Wall Street is mounting, according to Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly.
Nearly a month after protesters took up residence at a park near Wall Street, Mr. Kelly said that overtime costs to police their activities and marches had hit nearly $2 million.
On Wednesday, word came that those costs had increased to $3.2 million. Where the final figure will land is anybody’s guess.

This manager also cited damages, including graffiti on his restroom walls. "For eight and a half years, there was nothing on those walls," he said. "Now it says 'Viva la Revolucion' everywhere. Yes, 'Viva la Revolucion,' but don't write it on my toilet. I let you use my facilities without being a customer and this is what I get?"

Nicole Carty, a member of the facilitation work group, said the city and the park owner were conducting a "tactical effort to evict us."
"The role [of maintaining the park] no longer belongs to them — it belongs to us," Carty said. "And we keep this park clean, and they no longer need to. We have liberated this space from them."

Bolding mine.

The mayor's comments came in response to a caller to his WOR Radio show who asked what the city intended to do about the protest headquarters in Zuccotti Park, which is near her apartment and where hundreds of people are camped out.

"What about my rights to use the park?" asked the caller, named Marsha.

"This is a little bit of greenery that we reclaimed after Sept. 11. It's not usable. There is a general sense of incivility down there. But worst of all are the drums and the shouting. I know they've agreed to stop the drumming. Last night they were drumming until 10:45. Someone did a little practice drumming this morning at 7:50."​

Is why the police need to violently attack non-violent protestors?

The Occupy Wall Street demonstrations have generated a “small number” of cases for the city’s Civilian Complaint Review Board, according the board’s executive director, Joan M. Thompson.

Mass movements frequently alter the course of history. Whether the participants sleep on dry or damp concrete, march along slightly moist streets, or occupy very humid factories is totally irrelevant.

Can you name even one thing this "mass movement" has accomplished?

The protests have engaged tens of thousands of active participants, who are building a broad-based movement.

To do what exactly?

Linkys:

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/13/overtime-solidarity-and-complaints-in-wall-st-protests/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/...-poses-challenge-to-main-street_n_993306.html

http://www.wnyc.org/blogs/wnyc-news...owners-back-down-while-protesters-plan-party/

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/bloomberg_accuses_wall_economy_protesters_RVVkvakoiVqG68eSGrynrO
​

 

[FattyCatty]

Well, I've read the thread and haven't found it very useful. Maybe that's because I'm ignorant about economics. But so are many other Americans, and we all still have opinions. I think it's amazing and hopeful that such disparate elements have come together to show their unhappiness with how the country is functioning. I agree with this quote from occupywallst.org:

Our nation, our species and our world are in crisis. The US has an important role to play in the solution, but we can no longer afford to let corporate greed and corrupt politics set the policies if [sic] our nation.

And in my ignorance, I see the beginning of a solution. Regulation, oversight, and prosecution need to be increased. And just think, this will, as an added bonus, increase jobs all over the country.

Start by reversing all the deregulation since 1970, starting with the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act and the 1980 deregulation of S&Ls. Enact and enforce strict campaign reform laws that have teeth.

Change the tax laws to dramatically increase taxes on corporate profits over a certain (to be argued over and finally determined) level. Make sure profits are not wiped out by fancy accounting practices. Change the tax laws to dramatically increase taxes on bonuses (both monetary and in other forms) over a certain (to be argued over and finally determined) level. Pass the capital gains tax. Penalize investments (corporate and private) outside the United States. Penalize outsourcing. Simplify all other personal income taxes. Prohibit government employment contracts (at all levels, Federal, state, and local) from hiring someone for a short time and then letting them leave with full pension benefits.

That's my start. I only wish I had the power to convince the government to do these things.

And that's what I think unifies the Occupy Wall Street people. As has been said previously in this thread, their means may be different, but they all want to convince their representatives that something must be done about corporate greed and the ties between big money and government; that the present state of affairs is unsat and will not be tolerated much longer; that if some (unspecified, not agreed on) action is not taken, there will be consequences (also unspecified).

Also, bring back modified versions of the Works Progress Administration and the Civilian Conservation Corps; our infrastructure could use some work and most state and local governments can't afford it. Money to fund the program could come from the new taxes on bonuses and excessive profits and the other tax changes mentioned above.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

That was totally different than last Friday when we were in Seattle.

My son and his friend went earlier and described a higher percentage of the typical Seattle homeless. Saturday allows more working people like myself to attend.

 

[Pardalis]

Weekend revolutionaries.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

In NYC it's not helping local business. And no, the occupiers don't "own" the park. That park is private property and it sounds like socialism to me when a mob can just redistribute private property to "the people"



In NYC when I was down there I didn't see anyone who looked poor or homeless. Check out this trust fund baby complaining that the rich have too much money.
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/14/opposite-sides-of-the-protest-come-together-briefly/

It's not hard to find single examples to fit a particular narrative.

The park is public property and while i agree when individuals want to use public property for their personal benefit, that is not valid. But when the public wants to use public property, and that public is using it to respond to an unresponsive government, there is a difference. But as it is, the people who camped were willing to be arrested in order to be heard. And civil disobedience has been with us throughout historical times. It doesn't make the people who are speaking out bad people.

They can be bad, like when the white supremacists in the South broke laws to oppress blacks. I'm not claiming civil disobedience is always right. But when you have over 900 separate protests in over 80 countries, (or whatever the actual numbers were), it suggests people might just have a legitimate complaint.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Weekend revolutionaries.

So now we are bad because we have jobs and still feel sold out? I thought the protestors were supposed to all be freeloaders? Which is it?

 

[Alt+F4]

The park is public property and while i agree when individuals want to use public property for their personal benefit, that is not valid. But when the public wants to use public property, and that public is using it to respond to an unresponsive government, there is a difference.

Zuccotti Park in NYC where the occupiers have their headquarters is private property open to public use.

Here's an excerpt from a letter from the park's owner to the NYPD:

Additionally, we have received hundreds of phone calls and e-mails from concerned citizens and office workers in the neighborhood. Complaints range from outrage over numerous laws being broken including but not limited to lewdness, groping, drinking and drug use, to the lack of safe access to and usage of the Park, to ongoing noise at all hours, to unsanitary conditions and to offensive odors. We have received complaints of harassment, one woman stating that she was verbally abused in front of her 5-year-old child and complaining that she had a package stolen from her as she tried to cross the Park.

http://ironicsurrealism.com/2011/10...-ray-kelly-on-occupy-wall-street-oct-11-2011/

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...
Can you name even one thing this "mass movement" has accomplished?

To do what exactly?...

It's evolving. It takes a while to grow a grass roots political movement. But Nov 5th, Bank Transfer Day, will be an interesting beginning. I moved my money to a credit union over a year ago. And the new bank fees being imposed are going to motivate a few people to move their money regardless.

It's not clear how much money the Bank Transfer Day will eventually involve. I don't have real high expectations. But I'll be happy if it is merely a noticeable amount.


Right now all the opinion polls show the public is on a different wavelength from the Congress. If the movement starts to chip away at that Congressional denial, that will be a success. It takes time.

 

[Pardalis]

So now we are bad because we have jobs and still feel sold out? I thought the protestors were supposed to all be freeloaders? Which is it?

They're called "occupy" Wall Street, not "visit" Wall Street.

 

[Alt+F4]

It's evolving. It takes a while to grow a grass roots political movement. But Nov 5th, Bank Transfer Day, will be an interesting beginning. I moved my money to a credit union over a year ago. And the new bank fees being imposed are going to motivate a few people to move their money regardless.

I totally agree that a grass roots political movement takes a while to get off the ground but that's hard to do when a movement has no agenda, no leaders, no stated goals. Look what happened when the Zuccotti Park folks were trying to make a decision about garbage cans:

The sanitation working group recently brought a simple proposal: the purchase of storage bins in order to tidy up the park. It passed, but only after a member of the assembly attached a friendly amendment stipulating that the bins should be certified Fair Trade. Unfortunately, when attempting to purchase Fair Trade storage bins, the sanitation committee discovered they do not exist. The proposal had to be passed again.

These people seem more concerned about building a mini socialist paradise in the park then actually doing something about the problems facing the U.S. Did you know that in the 2010 mid-term elections New York State had the worst voter turnout rate in the entire country? Wouldn't a voter registration campaign be a more useful move then looking for fair trade garbage cans?

http://www.observer.com/2011/10/more-money-more-problems-how-occupy-wall-street-is-really-funded/

 

[Checkmite]

Influencing what corporations sell won't stop their predatory, anti-human, anti-planet, monopolizing, anti-democratic, corrupting practices.

Right, but a few weeks of circle-drumming is sure to get them evacuating by helicopter from their offices screaming "Until next time, Planeteers!"

 

[Checkmite]

OWS "observer" pretends to get run over by a speeding scooter, screams like a little girl:



No doubt he ordered the unmanly beer afterwards.

Possibly related: "Browne said one person "who claimed his foot had been run over by a scooter later ran after he was handcuffed and tried to escape," but was recaptured."

I like how it's his left foot stuck under (re: in front of) the front tire at first, and then it's his right foot stuck under (re: in front of) the rear tire. That's awesome.

 

[Pardalis]

It's like bloody Syria over there!

Such brutality!

 

[Ziggurat]

Until next time, Planeteers!"

The only superhero even lamer than aquaman.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Zuccotti Park in NYC where the occupiers have their headquarters is private property open to public use.

Here's an excerpt from a letter from the park's owner to the NYPD:

http://ironicsurrealism.com/2011/10...-ray-kelly-on-occupy-wall-street-oct-11-2011/

While Zuccotti seems like a reasonable corporate citizen, you are talking about an uber rich real estate developer. Did you expect him to sympathize with a group protesting about too much wealth being concentrated at the top? I'm sure he and his corporate CEOs are annoyed. I'm not impressed.

There is a fundamentally different philosophical point of view here that makes it difficult for one side in the discussion to emphasize with the other. We might as well get that out in the open.

One side sees the rich taking as much as possible at the expense of the poor and middle class, including the working poor. It sees the rich using it's governmental influence that comes with that wealth to stack the deck. People lost their wealth and homes to foreclosure due to unscrupulous deceitful loan sharks. Banks gambled with pension funds and investors' money. The rich who gambled profited and everyone else who had no say in the matter lost. Government services benefit us all. If you shift those services to the private sector, people will be ripped off by the greed of that private sector.

The other side sees the rich 'creating' wealth, not taking it from others. It sees the rich as earning that wealth, not taking it using an unfair disadvantage. People lost their homes and wealth due to greed and their own stupidity. It's fair to pay workers less and less, they have the option of changing jobs. Government services are inefficient and the private sector can provide the services more efficiently, market forces would prevent the private sector from ripping people off for those services. Poor people want a free ride. They want the government to take care of them.

Perhaps this is the wrong thread for the above to be discussed. As it is these Wall St threads are muddled. I'll look for a better thread for this discussion and post a link here but I have to get some work done first.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I totally agree that a grass roots political movement takes a while to get off the ground but that's hard to do when a movement has no agenda, no leaders, no stated goals. Look what happened when the Zuccotti Park folks were trying to make a decision about garbage cans:



These people seem more concerned about building a mini socialist paradise in the park then actually doing something about the problems facing the U.S. Did you know that in the 2010 mid-term elections New York State had the worst voter turnout rate in the entire country? Wouldn't a voter registration campaign be a more useful move then looking for fair trade garbage cans?

http://www.observer.com/2011/10/more-money-more-problems-how-occupy-wall-street-is-really-funded/

Certified Fair Trade is not a socialist movement. It's a commitment to not ripping off third world workers who are powerless to do anything about it. Do you prefer your shirts come from sweatshops because they cost less?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

They're called "occupy" Wall Street, not "visit" Wall Street.

Have you not seen a rotating occupation?

 

[WildCat]

The park is public property

Uh, no. It's private property.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

BTW, Pard, they are coming to a street near you.

Thousands of peaceful demonstrators began what some said would be a long-term occupation of cities across Canada Saturday, taking a stand against what they call corporate greed and economic inequality.

In Toronto, spontaneous chants of "we are the 99 per cent" broke out among demonstrators at the city’s St. James Park, a reference meant to distinguish protesters from "the elite one per cent" who control global wealth....

In Montreal, police said the occupation of Victoria Square by hundreds of protesters — with a generally festive tone, drumming and costumed dancers — was quiet.

“Everything is going well,” said Const. Daniel Lacoursiere,” of the Montreal police. ...

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Uh, no. It's private property.

Try to keep up, this has been discussed.