Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

[Snide]

Say what ?

All this complaining about corporate power isn't really about corporate power ?

Good heavens, your reading comprehension is poor. I have no reason to continue if you can't figure out what is being said in plain English. (Or, if it is intentional, then it is yet another strawman, which also means it's time for me to bail.)

 

[Snide]

It doesn't "disqualify them. Just makes 'em hypocrites by supporting the very institutions that they want to eliminate...

If indeed they want to eliminate corporations, then yes. You and Stout need to show that that is what they want to do.

 

[Neally]

You have already watched it and passed and shared your judgement of it in this thread. If you you unable to justify calling the documentary "conspiracy crap" I suggest you temper your language in future or, at least, stick to insults that you are prepared to back up.

And I suggest you learn to read. I didn't say I was unable to critique the conspiracy crap in it. I said I didn't want to take the time to sit through it again. As with all these types of videos, they mix in uncontroversial facts with unsupported conspiracy claims. Pull out what you think is important that actually supports the claims in the description of it you gave rather than expecting people to sit through 3 hours of it.

If indeed they want to eliminate corporations, then yes. You and Stout need to show that that is what they want to do.

Really? I mean, are you really claiming that much of the rhetoric coming from the protests is not generalized anti-corporate stuff in addition to the anti-wall street, anti-bankers stuff? A sampling of the messages from just about any news report will give you some of the corporate greed messages.

 

[Alt+F4]

"Critics of the growing Occupy Wall Street movement complain that the protesters don’t have a policy agenda and, therefore, don’t stand for anything. They're wrong. The key isn’t what protesters are for but rather what they’re against -- the gaping inequality that has poisoned our economy, our politics and our nation."

I think this is total nonsense. How can you solve a problem without having a solution to it? What do these Occupy Wall Street fools think they are going to accomplish? Do they really think they are going to protest in front of David Koch's home and he's suddenly going to have an epiphany and admit he was wrong all along?

Look at the civil rights protest/marches during the 1950s and 1960s, those folks had actual goals: end to segregation in the south and voting rights. Now look at these current day fools who declare "victory" because the city is still allowing them to sleep in their own feces.

The area around Zuccotti Park is a place where working folks live, they are kept up late by shouting and constant drum beating. Businesses in the area are hurting and the city is spending millions on police overtime. This is nothing but mob rule by a bunch of people that have no respect for private property or anyone living or working in that neighborhood.

If folks want to bring about change then stop sleeping on damp concreate and organize a voter registration campaign, fund raise for politicians that support your causes (heck, run yourself), lobby those currently in power. But in no way, shape or form is taking over a park and turning it into a mini "socialist paradise" going to change anything.

 

[Stout]

Good heavens, your reading comprehension is poor. I have no reason to continue if you can't figure out what is being said in plain English. (Or, if it is intentional, then it is yet another strawman, which also means it's time for me to bail.)

I fully understand how difficult a concept it is, buying corporate goods and the money trickling upstream to enrich the 1%, the enemy. But, hey, buy your camcorder, upload your protest footage to YouTube, link to it on facebook, the 1% won't mind at all.

Do you disagree that this is basically a "rich people suck " action ? If so why do you think there's so much attention paid to CEO's earnings ? Why do you suppose people actually care about the 1% and their 300 foot yachts ?

Here's another demand the protesters could make. Demand a course, at the high school level that deals strictly with money and debt. Make it required knowledge, that a credit cad isn't income, that that masters degree in fine arts won't land you a plum corporate job, that a house is not always an asset, that new car you buy depreciates at an alarming rate, that investing in the stock market is like going to Vegas and your favourite entertainers and sports stars might just be part of the 1%.

 

[mikeyx]

I fully understand how difficult a concept it is, buying corporate goods and the money trickling upstream to enrich the 1%, the enemy. But, hey, buy your camcorder, upload your protest footage to YouTube, link to it on facebook, the 1% won't mind at all.

Do you disagree that this is basically a "rich people suck " action ? If so why do you think there's so much attention paid to CEO's earnings ? Why do you suppose people actually care about the 1% and their 300 foot yachts ?

Here's another demand the protesters could make. Demand a course, at the high school level that deals strictly with money and debt. Make it required knowledge, that a credit cad isn't income, that that masters degree in fine arts won't land you a plum corporate job, that a house is not always an asset, that new car you buy depreciates at an alarming rate, that investing in the stock market is like going to Vegas and your favourite entertainers and sports stars might just be part of the 1%.

I've seen a few versions of their "demands", and am unsure how official they are, the ones I have kinda cringe at;

A very PETA like demand we stop slaughtering all the non human animals, peta is everyone's worst enemy as they take on reality is a bit shakey

abolishing all credit reporting agencies, people have credit scores for a reason, if only to give folks an incentive to pay their bills, as well as the blanket forgiveness of all debt, many of these folks got into debt through financial stupidity, some tough times would do them good.

Yes there have been crooked mortgage lenders, but buying a house should involve some research on the person's part buying it, some of the responsibility is theirs

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

It's possible to say that we shouldn't allow heavy corporate influence in government and still support the corporations. It's not even really hypocrtiical.

 

[Stout]

I've seen a few versions of their "demands", and am unsure how official they are, the ones I have kinda cringe at;

A very PETA like demand we stop slaughtering all the non human animals, peta is everyone's worst enemy as they take on reality is a bit shakey

abolishing all credit reporting agencies, people have credit scores for a reason, if only to give folks an incentive to pay their bills, as well as the blanket forgiveness of all debt, many of these folks got into debt through financial stupidity, some tough times would do them good.

Yes there have been crooked mortgage lenders, but buying a house should involve some research on the person's part buying it, some of the responsibility is theirs

It's a big problem with the come one come all format of this action. There never will be a one demand, it's a marketing ploy to get as many people as they can to bring their pet issues out ( yep, I went to a rally today ) and up the overall numbers.

All of those demands you cited above are from individuals or groups, I've seen others too, like a maximum wage.

I agree, a lot of debt is incurred on the spur of the moment, people living beyond their means, treating credit as income etc. I've done it myself. I like to call it, life plus 18% interest.

I don't know about the US, but in Canada a bank will only give you a mortgage based on 30 percent of your take home pay, less monthly commitments to outstanding debts. If interest rates spike and monthly payments go up, then the bank wont be stuck with a foreclosed property that may, or may not, have equity and may, or may not be in good repair.

 

[Stout]

It's possible to say that we shouldn't allow heavy corporate influence in government and still support the corporations. It's not even really hypocrtiical.

If that's the message you want to deliver, then yes. But the 1 vs 99% is all about income, it's a demand for a more equitable income distribution. So how do we get there ? one way, the direct action way, would be to vote with your dollars.

 

[respect]

What does you phrase "Control Fraud" mean to you?

It doesn't make a difference what type of fraud is committed if it can't be proven. As much as you guys want to skip the whole trial step between accusation and imprisonment it doesn't work that way. It isn't what law enforcement knows that matters here, it is what they can prove.

Please explain and justify your "ridiculous conspiracy theory video" insult. Depending on Alex Jones insults suggests a weak argument.

As convincing as bunch of quotes known to be phony are, and as dastardly as those Jews bankers are, this "documentary" is very hard to take seriously. Who knew that a staple of private enterprise was a need to have a president appoint your leadership and congress approve it just so you can annually turn your profits over to the US Treasury?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

No, just a whole lot of inconsistency on the part of the protesters.

It was pretty consistent today at the Occupy Seattle march I went to.

Here is a sample of the messages:

The banks were bailed out, we were sold out.
When the poor don't have any food they plan to eat the rich.
Move your money to a credit union on Nov 5th.
What does democracy look like? This is what democracy looks like.
The 99% are too big to fail.
I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one of them. (my favorite)

There were various complaints about the current status of student loans, anti-union activity, under taxed hedge fund profits, the under taxed 1%, money and lobbying corrupting our democratic process, and a smattering of Ron Paul supporters who think the federal reserve is to blame.

People attending were clearly from a very broad segment of the population.


The messages were very consistent and not at all the disorganized all over the map claim that the mainstream broadcast media is painting.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think this is total nonsense. How can you solve a problem without having a solution to it? What do these Occupy Wall Street fools think they are going to accomplish? Do they really think they are going to protest in front of David Koch's home and he's suddenly going to have an epiphany and admit he was wrong all along?

Look at the civil rights protest/marches during the 1950s and 1960s, those folks had actual goals: end to segregation in the south and voting rights. Now look at these current day fools who declare "victory" because the city is still allowing them to sleep in their own feces.

The area around Zuccotti Park is a place where working folks live, they are kept up late by shouting and constant drum beating. Businesses in the area are hurting and the city is spending millions on police overtime. This is nothing but mob rule by a bunch of people that have no respect for private property or anyone living or working in that neighborhood.

If folks want to bring about change then stop sleeping on damp concreate and organize a voter registration campaign, fund raise for politicians that support your causes (heck, run yourself), lobby those currently in power. But in no way, shape or form is taking over a park and turning it into a mini "socialist paradise" going to change anything.

Where I was, the crowd was patronizing the local businesses. Occupying the park was a statement that we own the park, socialism had nothing to do with it.

The people attending were mostly students and the working poor and middle class who feel their wealth eroding. There were a few homeless but they were by far the minority.

 

[KoihimeNakamura]

That was totally different than last Friday when we were in Seattle.

 

[JihadJane]

And I suggest you learn to read. I didn't say I was unable to critique the conspiracy crap in it. I said I didn't want to take the time to sit through it again. As with all these types of videos, they mix in uncontroversial facts with unsupported conspiracy claims. Pull out what you think is important that actually supports the claims in the description of it you gave rather than expecting people to sit through 3 hours of it.

More rambling generalizations.

Fortunately for us, you have already sat through 3 hours of it (shame you missed the last half hour). You called this specific documentary "conspiracy crap". It's up to you to justify your specific insult.

I think this is total nonsense. How can you solve a problem without having a solution to it? What do these Occupy Wall Street fools think they are going to accomplish? Do they really think they are going to protest in front of David Koch's home and he's suddenly going to have an epiphany and admit he was wrong all along?

Look at the civil rights protest/marches during the 1950s and 1960s, those folks had actual goals: end to segregation in the south and voting rights. Now look at these current day fools who declare "victory" because the city is still allowing them to sleep in their own feces.

Sticking to reality makes arguments more convincing.

The area around Zuccotti Park is a place where working folks live, they are kept up late by shouting and constant drum beating. Businesses in the area are hurting and the city is spending millions on police overtime. This is nothing but mob rule by a bunch of people that have no respect for private property or anyone living or working in that neighborhood.

Evidence?

Why do the police need to be there in such large numbers, anyway?

If folks want to bring about change then stop sleeping on damp concreate and organize a voter registration campaign, fund raise for politicians that support your causes (heck, run yourself), lobby those currently in power. But in no way, shape or form is taking over a park and turning it into a mini "socialist paradise" going to change anything.

The politicians have already been bought. That's the problem: Corruption of the political process by money.

‎"The virtue of uncertainty is not a comfortable idea, but then a citizen-based democracy is built upon participation, which is the very expression of permanent discomfort. The corporatist system depends upon the citizen's desire for inner comfort. Equilibrium is dependent upon our recognition of reality, which is the acceptance of permanent psychic discomfort. And the acceptance of psychic discomfort is the acceptance of consciousness." --John Ralston Saul

It doesn't make a difference what type of fraud is committed if it can't be proven. As much as you guys want to skip the whole trial step between accusation and imprisonment it doesn't work that way. It isn't what law enforcement knows that matters here, it is what they can prove.

What do you understand the term "Control Fraud" to mean?

As convincing as bunch of quotes known to be phony are, and as dastardly as those Jews bankers are, this "documentary" is very hard to take seriously. Who knew that a staple of private enterprise was a need to have a president appoint your leadership and congress approve it just so you can annually turn your profits over to the US Treasury?

The documentary isn't "a bunch of quotes" and how tiresomely predictable that you'd try to crowbar Jews into your non-explanation. Pathetic.

Please explain and justify your "ridiculous conspiracy theory video" insult.

 

[Alt+F4]

Where I was, the crowd was patronizing the local businesses. Occupying the park was a statement that we own the park, socialism had nothing to do with it.

In NYC it's not helping local business. And no, the occupiers don't "own" the park. That park is private property and it sounds like socialism to me when a mob can just redistribute private property to "the people"

The people attending were mostly students and the working poor and middle class who feel their wealth eroding. There were a few homeless but they were by far the minority.

In NYC when I was down there I didn't see anyone who looked poor or homeless. Check out this trust fund baby complaining that the rich have too much money.
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/14/opposite-sides-of-the-protest-come-together-briefly/

 

[Alt+F4]

Sticking to reality makes arguments more convincing.

Perhaps you are not familiar with the American civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s. That movement was successful because it had clear goals and good strategy. This bunch of fools seems to have nothing other than, "Hey, some people make too much money!"

Evidence?

I live in NYC and have seen these protestors. You I guess rely on the media and YouTube for your information.

Why do the police need to be there in such large numbers, anyway?

For one reason to clear the sidewalks so people can get to work, home and school. 90% of the people who work in the Wall Street area are just regular working people, not millionaire bankers. I have a friend that lives down there and says that if the police don't enforce a 10pm ban on the constant drumming no one can get to sleep. This is not a mini socialist paradise they have going on down there. On the weekends almost all business in the neighborhood are closed (thus no bathrooms). These protestors carry buckets of urine and feces around the neighborhood looking for places to dump it. It's disgusting.

The politicians have already been bought. That's the problem: Corruption of the political process by money.

And how is sleeping on damp concrete in a park in NYC going to change that....especially when the corrupt politicians who did the bank bailouts are in Washington DC?

‎

"The virtue of uncertainty is not a comfortable idea, but then a citizen-based democracy is built upon participation, which is the very expression of permanent discomfort.

Bolding mine. That's the problem, there is no participation here, just a huge bitch-fest with zero plans on how to solve the problems.

 

[WildCat]

In NYC when I was down there I didn't see anyone who looked poor or homeless. Check out this trust fund baby complaining that the rich have too much money.
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/14/opposite-sides-of-the-protest-come-together-briefly/

LOL!

He's against Wall Street, except the guys who kep his trust fund solvent.

 

[Neally]

Fortunately for us, you have already sat through 3 hours of it (shame you missed the last half hour). You called this specific documentary "conspiracy crap". It's up to you to justify your specific insult.

I'm sorry if your feelings are hurt by calling your precious video for what it is. Clearly you are reluctant to actually discuss anything in it that you find so enlightening, pretty much the same way all the other conspiracy nuts operate.

 

[JihadJane]

Perhaps you are not familiar with the American civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s. That movement was successful because it had clear goals and good strategy.

I was referring to your comment that protestors were sleeping in their own feces.

This bunch of fools seems to have nothing other than, "Hey, some people make too much money!"

Do you really believe that simplistic cartoon?

I live in NYC and have seen these protestors. You I guess rely on the media and YouTube for your information.

Please provide evidence that businesses in the area are hurting, that the city is spending millions on police overtime and that "this is nothing but mob rule by a bunch of people that have no respect for private property or anyone living or working in that neighborhood".

For one reason to clear the sidewalks so people can get to work, home and school. 90% of the people who work in the Wall Street area are just regular working people, not millionaire bankers. I have a friend that lives down there and says that if the police don't enforce a 10pm ban on the constant drumming no one can get to sleep.

Is this why the police need to violently attack non-violent protestors?

This is not a mini socialist paradise they have going on down there. On the weekends almost all business in the neighborhood are closed (thus no bathrooms). These protestors carry buckets of urine and feces around the neighborhood looking for places to dump it. It's disgusting.

What do you suggest they do with their feces and urine?

And how is sleeping on damp concrete in a park in NYC going to change that....especially when the corrupt politicians who did the bank bailouts are in Washington DC?

A lame meme!

Mass movements frequently alter the course of history. Whether the participants sleep on dry or damp concrete, march along slightly moist streets, or occupy very humid factories is totally irrelevant.


There are similar protests in cities all over the US and all over the world, not just Wall Street, e.g. Europe:

[URL="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery/2011/oct/15/occupy-wall-street-movement-global?picture=380478300#/?picture=380478411&index=0"]Occupy movement goes global - in pictures[/URL]

‎

Bolding mine. That's the problem, there is no participation here, just a huge bitch-fest with zero plans on how to solve the problems.

Why do you hate women (hilited)?

The protests have engaged tens of thousands of active participants, who are building a broad-based movement.

You appear to think there are problems that need solving. If so, what are they and do you have any other solutions besides everyone going to Washington DC to try and persuade corrupted politicians to behave like uncorrupted politicians?

 

[JihadJane]

I'm sorry if your feelings are hurt by calling your precious video for what it is. [

Silly and irrelevant personalization.

Clearly you are reluctant to actually discuss anything in it that you find so enlightening, pretty much the same way all the other conspiracy nuts operate.

I have repeatedly asked you to justify your labeling the documentary "conspiracy crap". Am I being unreasonable to expect this of you?