Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Well, whenever the innocentisti claimed this theory, I was addressed by them to scientific literature which it happened to say the opposite.

Oh, the science is OK, I think the problem lies elsewhere :)

That dog won't hunt for me either and I find the scientific lit I was addressed by them to be as scarce as hen's teeth. Could be one of them there Lost in Translation things. I used to find Machiavelli's Anglish to be as easy as sliding off a greasy log backward and now it reads like Shakespeare on WKRP. I do wish on this one he would either fish or cut bait. Reckon I'll sit for a spell.
 
That dog won't hunt for me either and I find the scientific lit I was addressed by them to be as scarce as hen's teeth. Could be one of them there Lost in Translation things. I used to find Machiavelli's Anglish to be as easy as sliding off a greasy log backward and now it reads like Shakespeare on WKRP. I do wish on this one he would either fish or cut bait. Reckon I'll sit for a spell.

But anyways, she is a convicted criminal of lying. So I am right.
 
I started a thread on that case some time ago: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153197

Chuck has internalized a false confession but he did it all on his own with later help from the cops to fill in the details. Follow Chuck and Ryan's case in the thread linked above.
Just was looking at it. It chills and depresses me, and makes me long for the past, when I thought police were simply neutral and decent. I read Ortega y Gasset's Revolt of the Masses in my 20s, and could not figure out what he meant when he referred to , in 1930, "the alarming rise of police forces in Europe and America". I thought it was as innocuous as the rise of post offices or mail boxes. Then all hell broke lose with the police and a family member...
 
RoseMontague,

Please tell me that this is a belated April Fool's joke. How can a change in venue not be granted?! The town itself joined the legal action, IIUC. Astounding.
EDT
If anyone needed evidence that Italy has some CJ issues that need to be addressed, I would be tempted to put the Scazzi murder ahead of the Knox/Sollecito case.

Google translates the reaction as "The Law of Family pissed."

http://translate.google.com/transla...-cassazione-delitto-sarah-1901806429923.shtml
 
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I've been curious about something ever since I saw the Kerchers repeatedly wonder about who the others 'involved' could have been, if it wasn't Raffaele and Amanda. Also, the very fact that would be an issue due to Mignini and Maresca insisting that Rudy's Motivations would frame the case for Raffaele and Amanda. That was just inane! Why were they saying something like that? It always bugged the hell out of me, as neither of them were stupid, and there's usually a method you can detect to Mignini's madness. I wonder if it has to do with them selling the Kerchers on a multiple attacker scenario as an absolute, as it was certainly absolutely necessary to promote their agenda? Of course it's just imaginary, as Massei must admit here:

The consultants and forensic scientists have asserted that from the point of view of forensic science, it cannot be ruled out that the author of the injuries could have been a single attacker, because the bruises and the wounds from a pointed and cutting weapon are not in themselves incompatible with the action of a single person. With regard to this, it is nevertheless observed that the contribution of each discipline is specifically in the domain of the specific competence of that discipline, and in fact the consultants and forensic experts concentrated their attention on the aspects specifically belonging to forensic science: time of death, cause of death, elements indicating sexual violence, the injuries present on the body of the victim, and the causes and descriptions of these.

However the illusion gets created on the basis of other reasons that don't actually suggest multiple attackers, they just kinda sound like they do. Then Mignini and Maresca make a big deal about it and pretend that those additional 'reasons' that Massei is forced to come up with (because it was a guilty verdict and three total had been found guilty at that point) somehow are somehow validated by a higher court and become 'truth' when in reality the higher court is not even considering them. However since no one ever challenges them, they just reprint Maresca and Mignini's nonsense about the Supreme Court, it never dawns on the Kerchers or others that is meaningless and Mignini and Maresca insisting on it was in fact extremely curious.

Wow, I didn't remember how clear Massei was on the multiple attacker issue (or non-issue). Looking back on the closing arguments and the appeal in general, one of the interesting things about them is the way that the prosecution tried to shape not only the trial, but also the acquittal, once they realized it was inevitable. So Mignini introduced the idea of a multi-million dollar PR campaign (lifted straight from PMF & TJMK!) into his closing argument, not for the benefit of the jury - they knew they'd lost the case anyway - but for the media, to try and condition how the acquittal would be received. And it worked! Even a pretty reputable news organization like the BBC included the line about Amanda's parents launching a "massive PR campaign" in their coverage of the appeal verdict. And so a case which began with hugely prejudicial media coverage against the defendants, making it impossible for them to get a fair trial in the first court, was somehow turned into an acquittal supposedly influenced by American media coverage! Utterly crazy, and yet very skilled manipulation of the facts by Mignini.

I think the multiple attacker theory is another example of the prosecution trying to shape how people see the acquittal. Rather than asking whether the police got it wrong in charging multiple people with the crime, it's assumed the police got it partly right by charging multiple people, but wrong in who those people were! (or actually, right, since underlying the question "Who were the others...?" is the implication that those others were Amanda and Raffaele, who got away with it). And yet no convincing evidence that there were multiple attackers is ever cited, often no evidence is mentioned at all: instead the usual argument is that the Supreme Court said it must be so, and so it is. Never mind that Rudy had an abbreviated trial, and so the information the SC had access to was much more limited than the information Hellmann's court had access to. The Supreme Court said it must be so, and the Supreme Court creates reality, apparently.

Where some kind of evidence is cited, it's usually the number of injuries, and the idea that Meredith couldn't have been restrained by the wrists and stabbed by the same person. For some reason the obvious possibility that these different injuries happened at different times doesn't seem to be considered! For comparison, the trial of Vincent Tabak for the murder of Jo Yeates is ongoing at the moment: she suffered 43 injuries, there were marks on her wrists suggesting she had been pinned down, and she had been strangled.

His post-mortem examination also uncovered haemorrhages, including under her eyelids, while a blood clot in her nose was likely to have been a result of the compression to her neck. [...] Marks on her wrists suggested she had been pinned down, while the pathologist also found a small fracture at the base of her nose. [...] In addition to the fractured nose, there were 12 injuries to Miss Yeates’s head and neck, three to her torso, 12 to her right arm, 11 to her left arm, one on her right leg and three on her left leg.

Using the logic applied to the Kercher case, we'd have to conclude that more than one person was involved here too, or else one person with six hands. How could he pin her down and strangle her at the same time, as well as causing all the other injuries? And yet only one person is charged with her murder.

No one has ever put forward any convincing case that there were multiple attackers; the argument that Meredith couldn't have been restrained by the wrists and stabbed by one person is as nonsensical as arguing that Jo Yeates couldn't have been restrained by the wrists and strangled by one person. Of course, it can't be ruled out that there were more people present, given the poor handling of the crime scene, but no positive evidence exists to suggest there were.

I think the problem is the police had the wrong theory to begin with, and charges ("complicity to commit murder") were laid based on the faulty theory. I'm not sure how that can be resolved, but it seems more like a legal problem than anything else; the least sensible way to resolve it would be to assume there must have been multiple people involved based on the theory these police - these police - came up with at the very start of the case. Yet somehow, Mignini and Maresca have managed to make this the dominant view. Again, utterly crazy.
 
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Wow, I didn't remember how clear Massei was on the multiple attacker issue (or non-issue). Looking back on the closing arguments and the appeal in general, one of the interesting things about them is the way that the prosecution tried to shape not only the trial, but also the acquittal, once they realized it was inevitable. So Mignini introduced the idea of a multi-million dollar PR campaign (lifted straight from PMF & TJMK!) into his closing argument, not for the benefit of the jury - they knew they'd lost the case anyway - but for the media, to try and condition how the acquittal would be received. And it worked! Even a pretty reputable news organization like the BBC included the line about Amanda's parents launching a "massive PR campaign" in their coverage of the appeal verdict. And so a case which began with hugely prejudicial media coverage against the defendants, making it impossible for them to get a fair trial in the first court, was somehow turned into an acquittal supposedly influenced by American media coverage! Utterly crazy, and yet very skilled manipulation of the facts by Mignini.

I think the multiple attacker theory is another example of the prosecution trying to shape how people see the acquittal. Rather than asking whether the police got it wrong in charging multiple people with the crime, it's assumed the police got it partly right by charging multiple people, but wrong in who those people were! (or actually, right, since underlying the question "Who were the others...?" is the implication that those others were Amanda and Raffaele, who got away with it). And yet no convincing evidence that there were multiple attackers is ever cited, often no evidence is mentioned at all: instead the usual argument is that the Supreme Court said it must be so, and so it is. Never mind that Rudy had an abbreviated trial, and so the information the SC had access to was much more limited than the information Hellmann's court had access to. The Supreme Court said it must be so, and the Supreme Court creates reality, apparently.

Where some kind of evidence is cited, it's usually the number of injuries, and the idea that Meredith couldn't have been restrained by the wrists and stabbed by the same person. For some reason the obvious possibility that these different injuries happened at different times doesn't seem to be considered! For comparison, the trial of Vincent Tabak for the murder of Jo Yeates is ongoing at the moment: she suffered 43 injuries, there were marks on her wrists suggesting she had been pinned down, and she had been strangled.



Using the logic applied to the Kercher case, we'd have to conclude that more than one person was involved here too, or else one person with six hands. How could he pin her down and strangle her at the same time, as well as causing all the other injuries? And yet only one person is charged with her murder.

No one has ever put forward any convincing case that there were multiple attackers; the argument that Meredith couldn't have been restrained by the wrists and stabbed by one person is as nonsensical as arguing that Jo Yeates couldn't have been restrained by the wrists and strangled by one person. Of course, it can't be ruled out that there were more people present, given the poor handling of the crime scene, but no positive evidence exists to suggest there were.

I think the problem is the police had the wrong theory to begin with, and charges ("complicity to commit murder") were laid based on the faulty theory. I'm not sure how that can be resolved, but it seems more like a legal problem than anything else; the least sensible way to resolve it would be to assume there must have been multiple people involved based on the theory these police - these police - came up with at the very start of the case. Yet somehow, Mignini and Maresca have managed to make this the dominant view. Again, utterly crazy.

Thanks for the very not ugly post katy_did!!!!

I find it hard to *comprehend* this myth (like Atlantis) that multiple attackers has been proven after quotes like that one from Massei and the one where the SC in Guede's ruling refers to it as a "possibility" and a "thesis".
 
RoseMontague,

It may be worth bringing up the beating death of eighteen year old Federico Aldrovandi again. As I have noted before, Amnesty International wrote of Italy in 2007, "There was no independent police complaints and accountability body."

Yes, Amnesty International actually mentions him by name in it's 2011 report. Interesting comments on torture as well. This I found disturbing:

Violent homophobic attacks continued. Due to a gap in the law, victims of crimes motivated by discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation and gender identity were not given the same protection as victims of crimes motivated by other sorts of discrimination.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/italy/report-2011
 
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Torre

I think the problem is the police had the wrong theory to begin with, and charges ("complicity to commit murder") were laid based on the faulty theory. I'm not sure how that can be resolved, but it seems more like a legal problem than anything else; the least sensible way to resolve it would be to assume there must have been multiple people involved based on the theory these police - these police - came up with at the very start of the case. Yet somehow, Mignini and Maresca have managed to make this the dominant view. Again, utterly crazy.
Katy_did,

Good points. Some of the 2009 entries at the old Perugia-Shock, which were based on the testimony of Carlo Torre, were helpful to my understanding of the case. He believed that the attack was rapid and involved only a single assailant.
 
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2010 report from Amnesty International

Yes, Amnesty International actually mentions him [Aldrovandi] by name in it's 2011 report.
RoseMontague,

AI's 2010 report noted, "There were widespread allegations of torture and other ill-treatment by law enforcement officials as well as reports of deaths in custody in disputed circumstances. Italy failed to introduce an independent police complaints body and to introduce the crime of torture in its ordinary criminal legislation."
 
.......

Using the logic applied to the Kercher case, we'd have to conclude that more than one person was involved here too, or else one person with six hands. How could he pin her down and strangle her at the same time, as well as causing all the other injuries? And yet only one person is charged with her murder.
...

However, some things are different.
One person who assaulted Meredith was holding a knife. And Meredith was not only suffocated and stabbed, but also suffered a sexual violence. And, she was also stripped of her clothes by force, and they were stripped off in a peculiar way.
She was also found in the same room where she was killed.
 
RoseMontague,

AI's 2010 report noted, "There were widespread allegations of torture and other ill-treatment by law enforcement officials as well as reports of deaths in custody in disputed circumstances. Italy failed to introduce an independent police complaints body and to introduce the crime of torture in its ordinary criminal legislation."

All this is correct, but has nothing to do with the Meredith case, specifically nothing to do with the Knox statements.
 
No one has ever put forward any convincing case that there were multiple attackers; the argument that Meredith couldn't have been restrained by the wrists and stabbed by one person is as nonsensical as arguing that Jo Yeates couldn't have been restrained by the wrists and strangled by one person. Of course, it can't be ruled out that there were more people present, given the poor handling of the crime scene, but no positive evidence exists to suggest there were.

This argument seems to have been brought into the foreground since the not guilty verdict, notably in the chat with Barbie Nadeau.

Her argument is that she has seen the autopsy photos and talked with experts. It's hard to argue against that, since she gives no example of why simply looking at the photos would prove multiple assailants. I have read the Massei report and noticed the different opinions of the experts there and the conclusion Massei draws.

I suppose there are standardized ways of telling how an attack on a victim probably played out and if there was more than one attacker. The most known factor to decide by I guess is the existence or lack of defense wounds.

But I really wonder what Nadeau sees in those photos and what she has been told that make her draw the conclusion she draws?
 
All this is correct, but has nothing to do with the Meredith case, specifically nothing to do with the Knox statements.

Well if there were an independent body she could have filed a complaint with somebody might have actually seriously investigated her treatment at the hands of the cops, including the hitting.
 
However, some things are different.
One person who assaulted Meredith was holding a knife. And Meredith was not only suffocated and stabbed, but also suffered a sexual violence. And, she was also stripped of her clothes by force, and they were stripped off in a peculiar way.
She was also found in the same room where she was killed.

These are your convincements for multiple attackers?
 
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