lens flare/orbs/radionics/quantum physics...help!

[reaction105]

I'm involved in a discussion with a fairly prominent alternative health practitioner about what his photos of (in my opinion) lens flare actually are. It took more of a pseudoscience-y twist than I expected, and I thought I could get some help here. I've basically said that the photos he displays are not of orbs, disembodied souls, magnetic light radiating off of rocks or wave interference patterns (his terms), but just of different types of lens flares (making specific mention of that typical sensor issue with iPhone cameras some of you may be aware of - the grid of red circles). He's responded with, in part:

"The photo sensors are being overloaded in a unique pattern, which is different in different environments. For example, I’ve taken photos like this with light passing through trees and a variety of different plants, and the shapes and colors change depending on the environment; how the light is conditioned by interacting with the various mediums, be they rock, water, plant, etc."

"...where the light is of greatest intensity, you usually get either a blast of white light, or a black spot or pattern. In other areas, you see a mix of light and dark, similar to the pattern seen in the double slit experiments in quantum physics...Having photographed many different stones and mediums, I know the pattern of interference changes. Also, when you look at the edges of the stones where the light hits, you can see an intensified heat-glow, which changes as you move away from the light in much the same way as when metal cools when going from white-hot to red-hot. My point being that there is still a lot of useful information to be gained and that the camera overload occurs in a pattern that exemplifies both the situation and the mediums involved."

Up to here, I think he is only addressing my comments about the "grid of red circles" an iPhone will display, and claiming that they change based on what is in the photo. But they don't...every photo I've seen has the same type. Even if they did, I don't think this is fair use of the term "interference pattern", especially in the context of quantum physics. Any ideas on how to unravel this bit of wordplay?

"...I showed a variety of pictures that clearly showed different colors of light (energy) radiating out of stones of different types. There were no photocell overloads there at all. If you look at the field called “cymatics”, you will see the myriad of interference patterns created with changes in frequency."

Here, I think he is referring to what I would call different types lens flare. How can I best illustrate this to him? Also, the cymatics thing seems, to me, to be fairly irrelevant.

"It may be very interesting for you to look into the radionic photography of George de la Warr, which you can find on the web, but I’d suggest reading, “The Secret Art – A Brief History of Radionic Technology for the Creative Individual” by Duncan Laurie. Chapter 19 – Radionic Photography Today has an in depth analysis of de la Warr’s photography, which many have tried to claim was a fraud, yet the most comprehensive analysis by skilled scientists has been unable to find evidence of fraud. There are many cases of healers who can take photos of patients “with the lens cap on!” and get images that they use to determine what a person’s illness is; now paradoxically, wouldn’t this constitute “photocell UNDER-LOAD”?"

Is anyone here familiar with this radionics stuff? Where do I start with this?

I'm only engaging with this guy because a family member is getting sucked into his courses and teachings. I'd really appreciate any help you guys could give. It's not really my hope that I could change this guys mind, just that anyone else reading the discussion might have a chance to see through the stuff he says.

Thanks.

 

[John Albert]

Pics or it didn't happen.

 

[reaction105]

Oh yeah, let me get some images in here (can't link to them, but I can attach):

First, near his neck, "disembodied souls" or "orbs".

Next, where he is holding the rock: "In this image, you can see me carrying a large quartz crystal. It’s been sitting in the sun all day and as you can see, it is radiating a unique white-green light; think of the chakra system and correlated colors. This light has tremendous healing and energizing benefits for your body. You can see it radiating right through my hand without any sign of obstruction or distortion, unlike the light from a flashlight. I feel this is because the light is expressed largely due to magnetic relationships, and less due to electrical relationships. Just as a magnet’s field can pass right through you, so too does this light I refer to as magnetic light."

The third image of the typical iPhone grid thing, he says: "The yin effect of the yin-dominant stones has a drawing in, a darkening effect, while the yang-dominant stones have a projecting effect. The pattern you see in the light is referred to as an interference pattern."

 

[kerikiwi]

Why are these things visible only in photographs?
If the camera can see it, the eye can see it.

 

[reaction105]

Why are these things visible only in photographs?
If the camera can see it, the eye can see it.

That's the thing...he is also enlightened enough that he can see them with his own eyes, apparently.

EDIT: To save some confusion, this is what I originally said:

"The glows and rays you see in these photos is actually the light from the sun (or any sufficiently bright light source) reflecting and scattering inside the glass lens of the camera. It’s called lens flare, and is a well-known and well understood photographic effect. This is why these effects will only ever show up in photos taken with the camera facing into the general direction of, or directly at, the sun, and why they appear regardless of the content of the image (only the bright light source is required)."

 

[rjh01]

Any idiot can take photos like that. Just point the camera slightly away from the sun and take a picture. Replace the human with a solid object such as a house or even have nothing there. The sun can be replaced by any good light source.

 

[John Albert]

Show him this Wikipedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orb_(optics)

 

[wardenclyffe]

Do most of his photos include topless men?

Ward

 

[Stray Cat]

It never ceases to amaze me how people can turn what is really poor photography into some sort of miracle that only they have been blessed with the ability to control.

First of all, in tackling this "healer", there really is no need to address his ridiculous pseudoscience nonsense explanations. Simply provide verifiable information regarding lens flare/photographic artifact from the various web pages that go into great detail about exactly what it is and how to avoid it. Every time he sends you on a fools errand looking up his quantum physics and other nonsense in order to refute it, you are accepting his "shifting the burden of proof" responsibility.

I'm guessing it won't make the slightest difference to the woo, who already seems to have developed a complex web of BS with which he thinks he can run rings round anyone challenging him. I'd say your best bet would be to explain all this to your family member in the hope that they will actually listen and understand.

ETA: George Warr had a silly box for diagnosing and treating illness. I'm not sure his claims were based upon photography at all.
It was Leonardo Puerre Corte that was the photography bloke from what I remember. Warr was found not guilty of fraud in a court case regarding his box, even though it has never been shown to work.

ETA2: Of course, I just looked it up. Warr did also have a box that he claimed photographed thoughts.

 

[John Albert]

Notice that in none of these pictures are any of the people actually pointing, gesturing or even looking at these otherworldly phenomena allegedly happening right in front of their eyes.

That lack of behavioral cues is a pretty good indication that they didn't see anything at the time the photograph was taken.

 

[Paul2]

Do most of his photos include topless men?

Ward

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[John Albert]

As a straight man myself who's quite secure in his masculinity, I have no qualms about admitting that they're very well-proportioned, healthy-looking and sensual men.

 

[BTMO]

Please pass a message along from me.

"They are artifacts of camera construction and the conditions under which the photos were taken".

Then tell him the fee for my analysis is $1,935.47 (inc GST). It'd have been much cheaper, but he wasted my time with his faith healer bull ****. As he no doubt expects to be compensated for his time, I expect to be compensated for mine, and can get nasty when my bills aren't paid...

 

[Drs_Res]

Nuf said.

 

[GT/CS]

Check out the spirit orb I photographed in a crematory.
Don't know how you can argue with evidence like that!

 

[dasmiller]

My spiritual essence would be ashamed if I were to be seen with only one or two orbs. I attract swarms of them, as can be seen in this picture that I took just a few minutes ago from my jacuzzi:

The huge number of orbs shows how superior my essence is



or it shows that my essence needs that much more help . . .

 

[Learjet]

Mmm okay. Firstly I'm not a professional optician, so what would I know. But... as an amateur astronomer I have ground, polished and figured about 8 telescope mirrors from a tiny 5 inch to a hefty 16 inch and then use them for astrophotography. In the process of which I have seen lens and mirror flare and the odd diffraction pattern - which is how the optics are tested for accuracy.

The stuff in his photos is lens flare, but you all already knew that.

I'm glad I didn't get into this conversation with your alternative therapist friend as my years of work to get my blood pressure down would have all been for nothing.

From the aforementioned conversation it would appear that he is beyond reason and logic and that no amount of diatribe would convince him otherwise. So it's probably just best to shoot him I mean nod and try not to let it get to you, as it invariably would drive me to 200/150.

 

[Cuddles]

Is anyone here familiar with this radionics stuff? Where do I start with this?

Wikipedia is generally a good place to start. It uses devices that don't actually have functional electronics, don't use any power, don't have any way they could work, and don't actually do anything. Apparently even proponents now acknowledge this and don't even pretend it works, instead claiming it's something to do with dowsing.

There's no mention of the photographic side of things, but since the photographs are just supposed to be a diagnostic tool for some incredibly obvious quackery, there doesn't seem much point in looking at it in much more detail - people take random photos and pretend to see something, then pretend to make it better with dowsing.

 

[John Albert]

Check out the spirit orb I photographed in a crematory.
Don't know how you can argue with evidence like that!

That's a crematory? It looks like an industrial HVAC unit.

What an unceremonious way to end one's physical existence on this planet.

 

[John Albert]

From the aforementioned conversation it would appear that he is beyond reason and logic and that no amount of diatribe would convince him otherwise. So it's probably just best to shoot him I mean nod and try not to let it get to you, as it invariably would drive me to 200/150.

As the wise words and smooth voice of Michael McDonald once sang:

What a fool believes he sees
A wise man has no power to reason away
What seems to be, is always better than nothing
And nothing at all keeps sending him