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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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So you don't know about any lie told by the police.
I not that you gave up, and the police didn't tell any lie.

Knox was not told lies as far as we know, as far as you know, as far as what Knox has ever claimed during her trial.

There is no room to claim any lie. You can perfectly see yourself there is no base for any claim. There is not even a claim (what lie?). Your lie is like Bertrand Russel's teapot. Even worse: you don't even know if is a teapot or what is it.

The next question is to myself. The qustion that I put to myself, is why there are individuals unable to see that you need elements to build a claim of something. The existence of something is claimed rationally only if based on some element.
You don't have an element. Any information about this lie. You only have your prejudice about who is right between Knox and the rest of the world. It is the rest of the things you believe that makes you think there is a "lie". But you have no information and no elements to claim a lie.

Do you agree that if the police told Knox they had clear and convincing evidence that she lied and that she was present when Kercher died that they lied to her in order to get a confession from her?
 
It is impossible to answer this question since it is merely virtual. She was legally free to leave, but she was "at disposal" of the police, the police could ask her to comply with their requests. So she was not exactly free to leave, but she was not entirely prevented from doing that. She was compelled to do only what was necessary to help the police, not stripped from all liberties. She was not in custody, since if she had been in custody she would have been prevented from communicating with the outside, while instead she was free to make phone calls (the last call at 22:40). She could have called her lawyer if she had wanted to, before signing the interrogation. A person in custody cannot do that.

As far as the nuances of the law go it may be complicated, but the clear fact of the matter is that there was no way she was leaving until the police got the statement they wanted. The police have basically admitted as much when they admitted someone was assigned to make sure she did not leave.
 
a spontaneous statement released before a magistrate and witnesses, among them the interpreter.

What do you mean by the word spontaneous? How can you consider a confession under those circumstances spontaneous?

Even if there was no lies and no suggestions by the police, what exactly in Knox's situation points to her giving a testimony freely and spontaneous?

Was she free to leave?

ETA: I see you answered this.

So she was not exactly free to leave, but she was not entirely prevented from doing that
.

Surely that means that she was not to free to leave? Every other interpretation is a twist of words, isn't it?
 
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Do you agree that if the police told Knox they had clear and convincing evidence that she lied and that she was present when Kercher died that they lied to her in order to get a confession from her?

Really, it isn't the lying that is the issue. Police can lie to suspects about their evidence pretty much anywhere, including in the United States. The problem lies in suggesting that she must have repressed memories, and trying to get her to imagine things they had no reason to believe had happened. And then suggesting that must have happened, and she just doesn't remember. And combining that with intentional sleep deprivation. That is a proven recipe for false confessions.
 
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* * *

There is no claim they were yelling. Amanda herself didn't claim this in court.

* * *

_______________________

Machiavelli,

Amanda in her court testimony.......

"Under the amount of
pressure of everyone yelling at me, and having them tell me that they were
going to put me in prison for protecting somebody, that I wasn't protecting,
that I couldn't remember........"

///
 
Ludicrous request. Who claims, has to prove.



I have no proof on this, I concede that maybe they hit her.
This does not mmake her become innocent, and does not justify the repeated accusation of innocents for weeks.



She gave an explanation in court, and this was not her claim; she never claimed this in court.
Moreover, it wous make no sense to ask someone to imagine things that didn't happen in an interrogation.



The suspect is Amanda not the translator.



You bet she was scared.



For two weeks? Days before and days after the two-hour interrogation?



There is no claim they were yelling. Amanda herself didn't claim this in court.

And, the cops were certainly not yelling nor screaming nor asking her to imagine when she voluntarily wrote her infame hand written note.



The innocent person was jailed for Amanda's fault, and no one else's. And there was no custodial interrogation: there was instead a spontaneous statement released before a magistrate and witnesses, among them the interpreter.

You liar pants on fire! :)

Amanda did in fact claim in court that the cops YELLED at her.

"The whole interrogation lasted so long, and the whole time I said I had
nothing to do with all this and that I remembered being at Raffaele's place.
But they yelled at me for so long."

"Fine. So, they had my telephone, and at one point they said "Okay,
we have this message that you sent to Patrick", and I said I don't think I did,
and they yelled "Liar! Look! This is your telephone, and here's your
message saying you wanted to meet him!" And I didn't even remember that I
had written him a message. But okay, I must have done it. And they were saying that the message said I wanted to meet him. That was one thing. Then there was the fact that there was this interpreter next to me, and she was telling me "Okay, either you are an incredibly stupid liar, or you're not able to remember anything you've done." So I said, how could that be? And she said, "Maybe you saw something so tragic, so terrible that you can't remember it. Because I had a terrible accident once where I broke my leg..."
 
_______________________

Machiavelli,

Amanda in her court testimony.......

"Under the amount of
pressure of everyone yelling at me, and having them tell me that they were
going to put me in prison for protecting somebody, that I wasn't protecting,
that I couldn't remember........"

///

Machiavelli, please take time to read Amanda's testimony, from a source that I'm sure you trust; http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=17375

"This does not mmake her become innocent, and does not justify the repeated accusation of innocents for weeks."

The yelling, hitting and other abusive actions does make her innocent (she is innocent as confirmed by Hellman with his 530.1 ruling :)) and it explains why she not only implicated Lumumba but also why she continued to partially believe it for weeks.
 
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Machiavelli,

Oh, please.

You know as well as anyone else that either (a) the Perugian police audio and videotaped the interrogations of Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito, who they brought in as suspects, not as "witnesses", and then ditched the tapes after the fact, or (b) the Perugian police deliberately did not audio and videotape the interrogations of Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito, who were brought in as suspects, not as "witnesses", because ILE didn't want there to be any official record of it.

There's no getting around that.

Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito were "suspects" in the eyes of ILE long before their interrogations on the night of November 5, 2007, and there is no excuse whatsoever for their interrogations not being recorded by ILE, and no excuse whatsoever for any such recordings (if they were made) not being handed over to the defence.

Why do you continue to pretend otherwise?
 
And, the cops were certainly not yelling nor screaming nor asking her to imagine when she voluntarily wrote her infame hand written note.


It's too bad you aren't capable of reading that note. It clearly tells how the police conducted the interrogations. And since it was written at a time when Amanda would have believed that the interrogations were recorded, she cannot afford to lie about it. Since this is the only contemporaneous record it's the one we have to accept. Amanda's truth stands unchallenged.

The police burned their chance to present the facts twice. Once when they failed to secure a recording of the interrogations and again when they failed to conduct a proper investigation when Mignini charged Amanda with slander against the police.


The innocent person was jailed for Amanda's fault, and no one else's. And there was no custodial interrogation: there was instead a spontaneous statement released before a magistrate and witnesses, among them the interpreter.


You keep repeating this swill as if repetition will make it more true.

"I wish to relate spontaneously" --- Bullcrap! nobody but the police who know how they have to squeeze around the law would speak like that. When was Amanda notified that she had become a suspect? There's another police lie. They tell Amanda that they are going to keep her in protective custody.


ETA: Try a google search for the quoted string above to find just how common that phrase really is.
 
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She could have called her lawyer if she had wanted to, before signing the interrogation.


Here's another lie. Is this a new one that Machiavelli concocted? I don't see any claim that it is coming from anywhere else.

Amanda had in fact asked for her phone back and they wouldn't give it to her.

AK: They brought me things only after I had made some declarations. So, I was
there, they were all screaming at me, I only wanted to leave because I was
thinking that my mother was arriving, and I said look, can I have my telephone,
because I want to call my mom. They said no, and there was this big
mess with them shouting at me, threatening me, and it was only after I made
declarations that they started saying "No, no, don't worry, we'll protect you,"
and that's how it happened.
 
Machiavelli,

Oh, please.

You know as well as anyone else that either (a) the Perugian police audio and videotaped the interrogations of Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito, who they brought in as suspects, not as "witnesses", and then ditched the tapes after the fact, or (b) the Perugian police deliberately did not audio and videotape the interrogations of Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito, who were brought in as suspects, not as "witnesses", because ILE didn't want there to be any official record of it.

There's no getting around that.

Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito were "suspects" in the eyes of ILE long before their interrogations on the night of November 5, 2007, and there is no excuse whatsoever for their interrogations not being recorded by ILE, and no excuse whatsoever for any such recordings (if they were made) not being handed over to the defence.

Why do you continue to pretend otherwise?

Please remember this is a person who believes that lies by police or prosecution are not lies by any known definition because if/when they lie it's supposedly justified, but lies by witnesses/suspects are lies by all known definitions.

This is a police state, where the police and prosecution can pretty much do and say as they please without fear of exposure by the press or witnesses/suspects because they will be charged with telling lies about the police and prosecution and where no one has a right to a lawyer until the police say they can. This is a police state.
 
Amanda was questioned for 2,5 hours at best.

You're just rolling out the lies.

22:29 Amanda makes a 3 minute phone call to Filomena
Amanda says she "Just arrived" and Raffaele is being questioned. The call ends with Amanda saying: "Now somebody wants to talk to me."

We have testimony from one officer that they were going to be arresting Raffaele and they didn't want Amanda to leave if he started screaming. There are also several officers who claim that they were moving between the two interrogation rooms that night. Raffaele's declaration was signed at 22:40 so Amanda's interrogation began before that time and most likely at 22:32 when the phone call ends and they begin to talk to her. The interpreters own testimony is that she got the call at home after midnight so there are a couple of hours of interrogation before the interpreter arrives and then on to 1:45 when the first statement is signed. That's over 3 hours right there.

Frank puts the start of the second round at 3:30
In the meantime Amanda is fed and taken care (according to Monica). But then, at 3:30 it will be her turn to be interviewed. (Perugia Shock 2009-02-27)​
This lasts till 5:45 for 2+ more hours under the light.
 
By the way, I have asked to quote a lie that people think the police told.
Nobody was able to quote a single one. I have explained what I mean by police lie. A factual lie told to the suspect during interrogation.

1.) Only because the police didn't record the interrogation. As I've said before, the only way to get a cop on police misconduct is to record his actions. Unfortunately the 'faternal order of police' will not testify against themselves if opposed by a mere citizen.

2) We can't believe Amanda and Raffaele because they have had their character assassinated by the lovely 'fraternal order'.

3) The whole police-legal system is like one of those floating mountains in Avatar. The mountain doesn't respond to the same physical laws to which mere citizens are bound.

Let's qualify your statements better mr. Machiavelli. This is a case where the police have lied like troopers. We all know it. We could prosecute them more easily than Amanda because there are a lot of witnesses and character witnesses that a lot more accurate and reliable than the prosecution's 'super witnesses'. But to offer a video of police misconduct is difficult and no judge will prosecute the police without a video. However, nothing was needed to prosecute Amanda and Raffaele. It is a double standard. So qualify your statements and quit the double talk legalese when it isn't appropriate.
 
...She was legally free to leave, but she was "at disposal" of the police, the police could ask her to comply with their requests. So she was not exactly free to leave, but she was not entirely prevented from doing that....

I hesitate to step into this mess, but I have to ask: What can this possibly mean? Could she leave or not? If she had said "I'm outta here," would the cops have said "Okay, we just have a few more questions?" Or "You can't leave until you finish complying with our requests?" Would they have physically restrained her, or what? If she had tried to push her way past a cop who stood in the doorway, would that constitute a new crime of assault on a police officer (never touch a cop, by the way)? Or what? Do the cops have to provide access to a telephone? And would a 20-year-old American coed be likely to know what her rights were under Italian law?
 
I hesitate to step into this mess, but I have to ask: What can this possibly mean? Could she leave or not? If she had said "I'm outta here," would the cops have said "Okay, we just have a few more questions?" Or "You can't leave until you finish complying with our requests?" Would they have physically restrained her, or what? If she had tried to push her way past a cop who stood in the doorway, would that constitute a new crime of assault on a police officer (never touch a cop, by the way)? Or what? Do the cops have to provide access to a telephone? And would a 20-year-old American coed be likely to know what her rights were under Italian law?

It's obvious the situation was custodial, de facto even if not de jure. The police did not and were not going to let her leave. Not after they brought in a bunch of detectives from Rome (probably paying them overtime) for the express purpose of tag teaming her in an overnight interrogation, the entire purpose of which was to "break" her.

Remember, Rudy Guede's name had not even come up at this point - despite the police being "sure" they knew what had happened and who had done it, so sure they actually said they didn't need physical evidence to know what happened. So they were under tremendous pressure to arrest someone.

Everything about the interrogation suggested that any statement they might get would be unreliable - any experienced interrogator with any skill would have known that, and even the Italian courts had to agree. The court ruled the statement inadmissible with respect to the murder. (They let it in as evidence for the calumnia charge, which may well have only been charged so the prosecution could try to get that statement in front of the jury. At that point, the damage is done, because the jurors would consider it for the murder charge even if they didn't realize they were doing so. It would be impossible not to; you can't un-ring that bell. That's why such a thing would never be allowed in the US, where despite our failings we at least try to take due process seriously.)

Anyway, back to my point. The police then relied on this statement, signed under duress and full of "coulds" and "mights" and "I'm not sures," to arrest Lumumba and subject him to the same garbage. Then they had the temerity to blame Knox for what they did to Lumumba based solely on a statement that any competent investigator would deem wholly unreliable. And they charged her for it. It would be comical if real lives weren't ruined.

Seriously, read her statement and tell me she is asserting that she knows Lumumba was there. It's obvious to anyone who knows anything about interrogations that Knox finally broke and told them what they had been demanding for hours to hear. And even then she couched it in language that makes it absolutely clear she was not at all sure if she was remembering or just confused. And she was still sure she did not take part in the crime.

The calumnia conviction will be likely be vacated by the Italian Supreme Court, after the frenzy has died down. It's just too laughable to stand. Even without video of the interrogation, any psychological expert could point to obvious signs of duress just by examining the statement itself. Not voluntary = not guilty. In Britain or the US, that charge never would have been brought. (I can't speak to Britain's law, but in the US the murder charge also would not have survived a motion to dismiss.)

Edit: Sorry, got a little carried away there. :)
 
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Italian law on interrogations

Decide for yourself how legal Amanda's interrogation was, and how honest Machiavelli is being:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Code_of_Criminal_Procedure :

Interrogations and self-incriminating statements

When a person who is neither an indagato (suspect) nor an imputato (defendant), interrogated by the police or the prosecutor, reveals pieces of information that might lead to his incrimination, the interrogation must be immediately stopped, the person must be invited to nominate a lawyer and be warned that the information disclosed may render necessary an investigation. These self-incriminating statements are inadmissible in court.[12]

The police or the prosecutor summon the indagato, during the preliminary investigations, and inform him precisely of the actions he is alleged to have committed (not yet technically a charge); they also inform him of the evidence so far gathered against him, if this is not detrimental to the investigations; the indagato is also invited to defend himself, if he so wishes; the police or the prosecutor can also ask him questions, that he may refuse to answer.[13]

The indagato, when interrogated, must be free of all undue influence, both psychological and physical. He must be willing to provide information (animus confitendi). The police or the prosecutor cannot use on the indagato any methods or techniques that may influence his right to self-determination or alter his memory or his capability to evaluate facts. This prohibition applies even if it was the indagato who asked that these methods or techniques were used. Before the interrogation begins, the indagato must be informed that his statements can be used against him in court; that he can choose not to answer the question, but that the investigations will proceed nonetheless; that, if he provides inormation concerning someone else's criminal responsibility, he will assume, as far as this responsibility is concerned, the office of witness.[14]

If evidence should be gathered in violation of these principles, it would be inadmissible in court.
 
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Decide for yourself how legal Amanda's interrogation was, and how honest Machiavelli is being:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Code_of_Criminal_Procedure :

Interesting. Notice it refers to stopping the interrogation when the subject says something that "might lead to his incrimination" (emphasis added). That sounds an awful lot like saying something that "arouses suspicion that the subject has committed a crime." It certainly isn't the same as waiting until the subject says something that is actually incriminating. Certainly the same words might do both; there may be no warning. But as soon as police thought they had contradictory statements that caused them to suspect Knox was involved, the protection was triggered and a lawyer should have been provided. This was well before either written statement was obtained.
 
It's certainly strange.

And strange timing, particularly in light of all the positive noises (towards the Kerchers) emanating from both the Knox and the Sollecito families. The Kerchers aren't doing themselves any favours here IMHO.

:(

I can only imagine what it must be like for them, it's one of the ugliest things about this case, it makes me so angry and sad I've trouble keeping my temper on the subject and have said things I regret because of it. It was much easier in general to keep an even keel on the murder case as I was pretty sure I knew how that would turn out.

I also had an awful feeling I knew how something else would turn out: the Kerchers would be further victimized , and no force on earth could stop it, mainly because no one would even try. The one bit of spin that just set my teeth on edge was the 'reserved and dignified' line, not simply because it wasn't true, but because of what it meant. Notably that despite all the disturbing signs everyone would pretend that the actions taken by the Kerchers were perfectly normal and understandable and to even gainsay that was crass and hurtful.

No one should have to go through what they have endured, and I don't mean just being victims of a murder, or even a high profile murder case, but to also have it endure for four years and be put in the position of taking an active part in the proceedings through a representative in court who's trying to do to someone else what has been done to them: take one of their loved ones unjustly. Then add in the macabre horror of knowing Rudy Guede may be out of prison in ten years or less, in part due to the fact Mignini and Maresca didn't pursue aggravations or contest mitigations against him in order to prosecute Raffaele and Amanda instead.

They were used by dishonest and delusional men, but they were enabled by everyone who told them it was justified. Let us hope someday the degenerating destructive spiral will end. :(
 
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