Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

[Darth Rotor]

What a bunch of boring old farts!

"Every generation needs a new revolution." -Thomas Jefferson

The system is collapsing. What do you expect to happen on the streets?

What do you propose as an alternative?

As you didn't get an answer, I'll estimate one:
"Anything but this ..."

Lefty, keeping the 30s alive.

One of the very few times I find myself in agreement with you.

These are indeed strange times, when I post that.

It's almost as though the Detroit Lions were undefeated, or something ... who saw that one coming?

 

[Stout]

How, exactly, have they "usurped" your voice?
.

If I'm not in the elite 1% then I must be in the remaining...you do the math.

There are numerous links posted in this thread outlining demands that protestors are making.

Yes, I know I read it.

Ending the corruption of the political system by corporate money is one of the primary ones.

And just where did all that corporate money come from ? Luxury items like hair colour, designer headwear, camcorders ?

 

[Stout]

Wow...bunch of strawman arguments there. Maybe you should start your own group so your complaints will work. While I am sure some protesters dislike all corporations, most of the complaints seem to be regarding how corporations get bailed out and a lot of favoritism from the government while the average person is passed over.

Strawman ? that word has a specific meaning and it's not an argument you don't like. If those corporations hadn't been bailed out and failed, do you really think we'd be better off ? Also why hasn't anyone in the protest movement mentioned that over half of the first $300 billion on the TARP bailout has been repaid ?

It's right there in Wikipedia.

 

[Drachasor]

Strawman ? that word has a specific meaning and it's not an argument you don't like.

Quite, it is when someone makes up an argument for their opponent that isn't true. That's what you are doing.

If those corporations hadn't been bailed out and failed, do you really think we'd be better off ? Also why hasn't anyone in the protest movement mentioned that over half of the first $300 billion on the TARP bailout has been repaid ?

Oh, OVER HALF of the first 300 BILLION? Wow, that's amazing. So they aren't remotely close to paying things off.

I'm not saying that an influx of government money wasn't needed, but very, very serious reform was needed and that didn't happen. So overall things have been handled pretty badly. Sure, it could be worse, but that doesn't mean it was good.

 

[JihadJane]

If I'm not in the elite 1% then I must be in the remaining...you do the math.

How did "they" usurp your voice. Where is your voice now?

Yes, I know I read it.

"It" is singular. There is more than one link

And just where did all that corporate money come from ? Luxury items like hair colour, designer headwear, camcorders ?

Oil and dollar supremacy.

Much of it came from blowing up fraudulent bubbles, exporting jobs and inventing, selling and gambling with fancy fraudulent financial "products".

 

[JihadJane]

Also why hasn't anyone in the protest movement mentioned that over half of the first $300 billion on the TARP bailout has been repaid ?

Someone has.

 

[Stout]

Quite, it is when someone makes up an argument for their opponent that isn't true. That's what you are doing.

No, it's my argument unless you're planning on making a case that has the protesters being pro-corporate. We hate their power but we love their stuff, won't cut it, not in the real world at least.

Oh, OVER HALF of the first 300 BILLION? Wow, that's amazing. So they aren't remotely close to paying things off.

I'm not saying that an influx of government money wasn't needed, but very, very serious reform was needed and that didn't happen. So overall things have been handled pretty badly. Sure, it could be worse, but that doesn't mean it was good.

Compare that to claims of "it cost $700 billion"

 

[Stout]

How did "they" usurp your voice. Where is your voice now?

.

By claiming to speak for as one of the 99%, this shouldn't be this difficult now should it ?

"It" is singular. There is more than one link

"this thread" is singular...so ?

Oil and dollar supremacy.

Much of it came from blowing up fraudulent bubbles, exporting jobs and inventing,".

The demand for oil comes from where ? yep, consumers to fuel their vacation flights, fossil fuel powered toys like ATVs and dirt bikes, Their entertainment ( hey what's the fossil fuel consumption of say, a U2 concert, once you add it all up ? ) That' only a small part of the luxury/fun uses for oil. We could get into how warm and how big is your house if you want.


Exporting jobs,,yes there we go. Now ask yourself would you be willing to pay for a union made. made in use digital camera or would you go out in search of the best Asian slave made model ?

selling and gambling with fancy fraudulent financial "products

That really only affected the investor class.

 

[Drachasor]

No, it's my argument unless you're planning on making a case that has the protesters being pro-corporate. We hate their power but we love their stuff, won't cut it, not in the real world at least.

Which is the strawman argument you are making.

 

[JudeBrando]

"President Obama, but for a handful of years and millions of dollars, is just as ignorant and foolish as those kids playing those damn drums in the street. The fact such a person was made President of theUnited States is more than a bit…troubling."

"...President Obama has little to do with controlling such a mob. He is simply a by-product of it. His jobs bill? (Shakes head) That move is nothing more than a feeble promise by the president that more money is on its way. To those unions. The first stimulus bill…what was that but a massive payback to his labor union masters? Keep those government checks coming. Those millions of government employees – the country has reached the tipping point there. To have a government so big, so vast, so powerful, so controlled now by organized labor. Labor whose leadership openly embraces socialism, Marxism, and any number of other –isms that all add up to anti-freedom. Anti-business. Anti-America. That is what is unfolding just down the street from us. The people engaged in it are silly and stupid. Ignorant and incapable. But the motives of the organizer behind these protests are very-very dangerous to the country. To each and every one of us. We are all in terrible danger here."

http://theulstermanreport.com/2011/10/09/wall-street-insider-obama-2012-re-election-not-an-option/

 

[JihadJane]

By claiming to speak for as one of the 99%, this shouldn't be this difficult now should it ?

I'm not convinced you're not just trolling but I'll respond anyway. Your voice appears perfectly intact.

What's stopping you speaking out for some other percentage? How have these demonstrations usurped your power to speak? What power did you have before they started demonstrating that you don't have now?

"this thread" is singular...so ?

Is that your only response to having read numerous links outlining the various demands (including "there is no demand big enough")?

The demand for oil comes from where ? yep, consumers to fuel their vacation flights, fossil fuel powered toys like ATVs and dirt bikes, Their entertainment ( hey what's the fossil fuel consumption of say, a U2 concert, once you add it all up ? ) That' only a small part of the luxury/fun uses for oil. We could get into how warm and how big is your house if you want.

By linking the dollar to oil and making the dollar the de facto reserve currency of the world, Nixon enabled the US to indulge in decades of bubble blowing, creating the illusion of prosperity and facilitating the extraction of the country's wealth by "the 1%".

Exporting jobs,,yes there we go. Now ask yourself would you be willing to pay for a union made. made in use digital camera or would you go out in search of the best Asian slave made model ?

The former, if I lived in the USA, but I'm happy enough not owning a digital camera.

That really only affected the investor class.

No, it crashed the entire economy for everyone by sucking all the money out of it while producing zero wealth.

Edited by jhunter1163: 

Edited image for Rule 10.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

"President Obama, but for a handful of years and millions of dollars, is just as ignorant and foolish as those kids playing those damn drums in the street. The fact such a person was made President of theUnited States is more than a bit…troubling."

"...President Obama has little to do with controlling such a mob. He is simply a by-product of it. His jobs bill? (Shakes head) That move is nothing more than a feeble promise by the president that more money is on its way. To those unions. The first stimulus bill…what was that but a massive payback to his labor union masters? Keep those government checks coming. Those millions of government employees – the country has reached the tipping point there. To have a government so big, so vast, so powerful, so controlled now by organized labor. Labor whose leadership openly embraces socialism, Marxism, and any number of other –isms that all add up to anti-freedom. Anti-business. Anti-America. That is what is unfolding just down the street from us. The people engaged in it are silly and stupid. Ignorant and incapable. But the motives of the organizer behind these protests are very-very dangerous to the country. To each and every one of us. We are all in terrible danger here."

http://theulstermanreport.com/2011/10/09/wall-street-insider-obama-2012-re-election-not-an-option/

Ha ha! You'll be telling us Obama is a socialist next! He's owned by and serves Wall Street.

The Labor movement in the US in a weak, remnant rump.

Why doesn't the the alleged "WS Insider" like drums being played in the street and who is the mysterious "organizer" (hilited)?


However, thanks for posting the interview, it was very entertaining, e.g.:

Ulsterman: What’s the remedy? How does the country go about…dealing with this threat?
WS Insider: Vote. Educate ourselves – and vote. It is the genius of our system – the simplest of remedies, and yet…we squander the opportunity in this country time and time again in favor of continued protection of self-interest, or giving in to more and more distraction. ...

Ulsterman: I didn’t vote for the man.
WS Insider: Your attempt to disqualify blame is not that simple.

Ulsterman: You just said voting was the simplest of remedies. Your words.
WS Insider: (Pause) Yes…
Ulsterman: I didn’t vote for the man. Did you?
WS Insider: No.
Ulsterman: No? You voted for McCain?
WS Insider: No – I didn’t vote. I haven’t voted for…for a very long time.
Ulsterman: Really? Why not? How can you sit here and say how genius our system of free elections are and then admit to not even participating?
WS Insider: I won’t offer up any excuse. No reasonable one exists. As I said, we are all guilty – we are all to blame for how the country has devolved into its current condition. Myself included.

 

[Snide]

It's a simple concept, really.

The corporations grew rich and powerful because "the 99%" gobbled up and continue to gobble up, their goods. If you want to bring the corporations to their knees, simply refuse to buy their goods.

Good advice, perhaps, to someone who wants to bring corporations to their knees. Since I highly doubt that's what the typical OWS'er wants, I call strawman again.

People can be unhappy with the way corporate America is today, and yet still buy from corporations the clothes they wear at the protests, without being inconsistent, hypocritical, or whatever it is you're criticizing them for.

Similarly, people can be unhappy with the way government is today, and yet still drive on the interstate to the Tea Party protest, without being inconsistent, hypocritical, or other similar form of criticism.

 

[Emperor_Gestahl]

Th financial/banking sector doesn't produce "goods".

No but they do enable you (and others) to purchase goods with money you don't (and may never) have! In fact if a good and/or service (let's say houses and tuition) becomes sufficiently financialized any change in bank lending standards (govt prompted or not) can lead to major demand and price distortion.

Gee I wonder if soaring tuition is an issue for some of these OWS protesters.. They need look no further than Wall Street and their pals at the DNC. At least they can see Wall Street from where they are, that's a good first step.

 

[Neally]

Ha ha! You'll be telling us Obama is a socialist next! He's owned by and serves Wall Street.

True. He has received more money from Wall Street than any other politician over the past 20 years. Yet his name is conspicuously absent among the protesters. Why is that?

 

[Emperor_Gestahl]

True. He has received more money from Wall Street than any other politician over the past 20 years. Yet his name is conspicuously absent among the protesters. Why is that?

Regardless of the contributions and appointments, Obama is more a symptom than a real problem. The issue of Wall Street influence is more about the Democratic Party than it is about Obama, and it's even more about whatever party happens to be in power and in a position to repeal / forget to enforce regulations.

 

[Emperor_Gestahl]

It isn't made clear by that article what it means when it says that the mortgages violated the company's internal standards (which would not necessarily be fraud anyway).

What I'm trying to find out is whether those were merely "internal" standards or if those standards were actually represented outside the company (for example to the buyers of the CMBS). So far I dunno I'll get back to you.

Here's some more detail on how they covered up the bad mortgages and how the top people at Citi knew damn well there was a problem in 2007.

http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2010/04/07/citi-the-mortgage-underwriters-tale/

 

[Neally]

Regardless of the contributions and appointments, Obama is more a symptom than a real problem. The issue of Wall Street influence is more about the Democratic Party than it is about Obama, and it's even more about whatever party happens to be in power and in a position to repeal / forget to enforce regulations.

Which is why the protests should be focused on the place that can make a change, namely the white house and congress.

 

[Emperor_Gestahl]

Which is why the protests should be focused on the place that can make a change, namely the white house and congress.

Well certainly, I hope they understand that since the corporations themselves are even less likely to listen than the government is. The media listens but they're only listening for good spots to inject spin.

 

[JihadJane]

True. He has received more money from Wall Street than any other politician over the past 20 years. Yet his name is conspicuously absent among the protesters. Why is that?

If you are saying that Obama's politics are not discussed by the protestors, then you are wrong.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Which is why the protests should be focused on the place that can make a change, namely the white house and congress.

I'll let Chris Hedges respond to your naive plea [my bold]:

"Even now, three weeks later, elites, and their mouthpieces in the press, continue to puzzle over what people like Ketchup want. Where is the list of demands? Why don’t they present us with specific goals? Why can’t they articulate an agenda?

The goal to people like Ketchup is very, very clear. It can be articulated in one word—REBELLION. These protesters have not come to work within the system. They are not pleading with Congress for electoral reform. They know electoral politics is a farce and have found another way to be heard and exercise power. They have no faith, nor should they, in the political system or the two major political parties. They know the press will not amplify their voices, and so they created a press of their own. They know the economy serves the oligarchs, so they formed their own communal system. This movement is an effort to take our country back.

This is a goal the power elite cannot comprehend."

'Why the Elites Are in Trouble'

 

[Childlike Empress]

In other words, a ridiculously manipulative marketing slogan like "Change we can believe in" only works once.