Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

[Emperor_Gestahl]

So the Treasury, FBI, ATF, DEA, European banks and Warren Buffet are also in on the conspiracy? All we need is vague claims of a plot to take over the world and we will be in Alex Jones la la land.

We'd also need you to point out where I said any of that. I don't see what the FBI, ATF, DEA, European Banks, or Warren Buffet have to do with anything. SEC and DOJ seem to be negligent, and perhaps the Treasury has some notion what the banks are/have been doing (being mostly from those same banks).

Here's today's criminal allegation:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703652104576122300990479090.html

J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. ignored or dismissed warning signs about the Madoff fraud even as it earned hundreds of millions of dollars from its relationship with his firm, according to a lawsuit unsealed Thursday.

 

[Drachasor]

You're thinking of private sector unions.

I don't think there's any particular reason why a government can't be abusive towards its employees. In fact, historically there's a lot of evidence that governments can treat people unfairly.

What do you think the proper recourse is if a government employee is experience unsafe working conditions and his immediate boss and their bosses can't or won't do anything about it?

Why didn't they all just go straight to the DNC then? Why waste all this time when the DNC already holds rallies and fundraisers they could attend? Glomming onto the first massive political organization that came along is more or less what the Tea Party did.

Frankly, the Tea Party allied itself largely with the people/party that supported most of their (anti-government) views.

No to the first, yes to the second. The unions have every motive to be there, it's good strategy for both them and the democratic party. They've got republicans to defeat. The protesters however had better be perfectly comfortable becoming part of the DNC and therefore allied with Wall Street before they get too cozy with these partisans.

The GOP is even more allied with Wall Street. I agree both OCW and the Tea Party are missing the point regarding what's going on (e.g. unseemly corporate influence on the government). Unfortunately, the current level of outrage being shown isn't far too small to really shake things up.

On the other hand, they might get some people they like elected, like the Tea Party. Some good might come out of it, depending on how things go. They do seem unlikely to elect anyone that's going to try to stop the government from doing anything, which is a plus.

If you read the FDR piece you'd understand that "the government" is in fact us. Also it's them. We're not talking about faceless unelected officials here, if the people feel that teachers or firemen or whoever is downtrodden it's quite simple to fix legislatively.

Tyranny of the majority? Ever heard of it?

The current situation in government is actually a good example of how it is NOT easy to fix these things. A corrupt government is hard to influence unless you are one of the corrupting forces. People generally do feel education is in trouble, yet more often than not we get total crap for legislation IF ANYTHING. Unions have a place.

Uh.. to advocate on behalf of the union's constituents? PAC money? Pretty much what they do now minus the collective bargaining. It's generally already illegal to strike, though that didn't stop some WI teachers (who ought be fired).

Talking without almost anything to back it up? Fund raising? That's it? Pretty weak.

If something "bad" is going on, that's the state legislature's fault. In other words, our fault.

Placing blame doesn't stop a problem though.

 

[stokes234]

Uh.. to advocate on behalf of the union's constituents? PAC money? Pretty much what they do now minus the collective bargaining. It's generally already illegal to strike, though that didn't stop some WI teachers (who ought be fired).

I have to ask - if trade unions don't have the power to strike, why exactly should employers give a damn about their advocating for anything?

 

[Drachasor]

I have to ask - if trade unions don't have the power to strike, why exactly should employers give a damn about their advocating for anything?

To be clear, he's talking about public sector unions. I think the same principle still applies, of course. Just because it is in the public sector doesn't mean employee rights can't get abused.

 

[Virus]

Damn corporations...sitting in their corporation buildings...being all corporationy.

 

[Drachasor]

Damn corporations...sitting in their corporation buildings...being all corporationy.

Making sure medicare can't negotiate on for cheaper drug prices and other kinds of ridiculous favoritism that costs tax payers.

 

[JihadJane]

How were they advertised, packaged etc? What are these credit standards on? Lending or investing?

There are a lot of types of mortgages and investments based off of them, as well as differences between lending a person money and investing in an existing loan. It isn't made clear by that article what it means when it says that the mortgages violated the company's internal standards (which would not necessarily be fraud anyway). Are they loans that the company wouldn't have lent out themselves but was willing to invest in, and so on? A lot more information and clarification is needed to accurately comment on that passage in the article.

'FBI warns of mortgage fraud 'epidemic'' (CNN, September 17, 2004).


'The Two Documents Everyone Should Read to Better Understand the Crisis ', - William K Black, 2009:

Control (adjective) fraud:

"...the S&P document demonstrates that the investment and commercial banks that purchased nonprime loans, pooled them to create financial derivatives, and sold them to others engaged in the same willful blindness. They did not review samples of loan files because doing so would have exposed the toxic nature of the assets they were buying and selling.

The entire business was premised on a massive lie -- that fraudulent, toxic nonprime mortgage loans were virtually risk-free. The lie was so blatant that the banks even pooled loans that were known in the trade as "liar's loans" and obtained AAA ratings despite FBI warnings that mortgage fraud was "epidemic."

The supposedly most financially sophisticated entities in the world -- in the core of their expertise, evaluating credit risk -- did not undertake the most basic and essential step to evaluate the most dangerous credit risk. They did not review the loan files. In the short and intermediate-term this optimized their accounting fraud but it was also certain to destroy the corporation if it purchased or retained significant nonprime paper."

 

[Snide]

Well then maybe you could point me in the direction of some #occupywherever dialogue that says corporations are good and we can clear this up.

Sweet. A false dichotomy thrown in, too!

 

[Snide]

No, just a whole lot of inconsistency on the part of the protesters.

I don't think inconsistency is the word you were looking for, at least not if you were referring to just the picture.

 

[Ziggurat]

Damn corporations...sitting in their corporation buildings...being all corporationy.

For those who didn't get the reference:

 

[WildCat]

No, you didn't. You linked me to some articles (one of which says "read the other editorial" on a page with about 50 links) saying that illinois was tens of billions in debt and had tens of billions of pensions obligations (doesn't specify over how many years those will be paid out), and then added the figures in yourself. You then peppered this with a few examples, and left completely alone the issue of how much an average pension was or anything along those lines.

Illinois state pensions are $85 billion underfunded right now, and that number is going up. We're already borrowing money to pay current retirees, even after huge tax increases.

I'm not purely partisan, if you can show me that average pensions in illinois are higher than elsewhere, or higher than can be argued fair or neccessary, i'll concede the point (that collective bargaining for pensions is badly handled in some situations, not that public sector unions are inherently a bad idea). But you haven't done that yet.

The amounts really don't matter. What matters is that workers aren't paying enough to cover the cost, nor is the state. This leaves everyone else to make up the difference.

It was the political influence of unions that got the state to make deals they couldn;t keep. They knew it, the unions knew it. But they figure (probably correcty) that it will be Illinois taxpayers paying for their pensions. And frankly, the unions don't give a damn about how many elderly are thrown out of nursing homes to keep their pensions and health care coming, so why should anyone give adamn about them?

Then look around the world at the public pension funds that are being handled well. This Grauniad page discusses future funding for UK public sector pensions - as a percentage of GDP, they are projected to fall, and that's before the tory contribution hikes are implemented (though I think after their retirement age hikes - bit cloudy). The Norwegian Pension Fund is doing pretty well too.

This is the USA politics section. And damn near every single public pension in the USA is underfunded. They certainly are in Illinois.

I'm not calling you a liar, but you can see why I might have trouble taking these statistics at face value. Can you back them up?

“A 33 percent daily absentee rate has put the city in the position that it’s making choices between services it need not make. . . . That’s unacceptable to the city,” Emanuel said then.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/...wn-on-absentee-abuse-in-sanitation-crews.html

Here's a link to the Chicago Inspector General's report on garbage collection: http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/clout_st/files/ig_report_re_bureau_of_sanitation_10.7.08.pdf
Sample quote: "...during the entire ten weeks of observations, the investigators did not see a single laborer doing a full day's work".

If they're taking the free healthcare, they're saving money by not using the state healthcare at the same time. I know private healthcare is expensive, but surely its not that much more expensive that switching to it for 1% of the population would bankrupt the state.

What are you talking about? They're not saving money, they're sucking us dry. I know of no health care plan except for state employees who are 100% covered from the day they retire until the day they die.

If public sector workers make up 1% of the population, exactly how much are you paying them in order to bankrupt the state? 50 times average wage?

We pay them to work 20 years, then they retire early and collect pensions and health care benefits for the next 30-40 years. Oh, and if they suck up to their boss or political patron maybe they get a fat raise the last week on the job, then guess what happens... their pension is based on the pay from that last raise! Never mind that they made no pension contributions based on that last raise. I think we have 3 retired state workers for every one working.

Again, some sources would be nice, along with any kind of analysis of how much average public sector workers get as pensions, how long they worked, typical private sector pensions, anything like that. On its own, these statistics don't mean much.

Private sector pensions! Those went out with the dinosaurs, and for good reason. Pensions require predicting the future, and as it turns out people can't actually do that. The private sector switched to defined contribution plans many years ago, pensions are almost entirely creatures of government employees now.

That's some screwed up democracy, but you can't blame all that on public sector unions. More like america needs to have a quiet word with itself about political corruption.

And the unions are only too happy to contribute to that corruption.

 

[technoextreme]

Nice, reactionary, fart poetry.



I asked a question, above:



Have you got an answer, Brainster?

Well it sure as hell isn't these protests. Quite honestly they seem to think that implementing a form of government even more horrible than the one we have no seems to be a good idea. In another forum I basically said that a lot of these policies are really dumb and seem to be an indication of what is generally wrong with direct democracies.

 

[Stout]

Sweet. A false dichotomy thrown in, too!

It's a simple concept, really.

The corporations grew rich and powerful because "the 99%" gobbled up and continue to gobble up, their goods. If you want to bring the corporations to their knees, simply refuse to buy their goods.

 

[JihadJane]

Well it sure as hell isn't these protests. Quite honestly they seem to think that implementing a form of government even more horrible than the one we have no seems to be a good idea. In another forum I basically said that a lot of these policies are really dumb and seem to be an indication of what is generally wrong with direct democracies.

What form of government are "they" suggesting?

It's a simple concept, really.

The corporations grew rich and powerful because "the 99%" gobbled up and continue to gobble up, their goods. If you want to bring the corporations to their knees, simply refuse to buy their goods.

Th financial/banking sector doesn't produce "goods".

 

[Drachasor]

It's a simple concept, really.

The corporations grew rich and powerful because "the 99%" gobbled up and continue to gobble up, their goods. If you want to bring the corporations to their knees, simply refuse to buy their goods.

Ridiculous, unworkable, and it does nothing to change the great influence corporations have over our government.

 

[Stout]

Ridiculous, unworkable, and it does nothing to change the great influence corporations have over our government.

Yes, I understand it can be challenging and inconvenient to act at the grassroots level and reject corporate produced goods on principal. It's way easier to consume and complain.

As a member of the "99%" whose had his voice usurped by these activists I feel it's my duty to point out their inconsistencies and aid them in their quest from the bondage of corporate consumerism.

need I mention that this whole thing started with Ad-busters, those very same people who sponsor buy nothing day.

Until OWS can actually figure out a demand ( might I suggest advocating for national health care plan in the U.S ? ) absolutely everything is on the table so far. Of course, this is all part of their marketing plan, this mysterious one demand. Come one come all and bring your favourite issues. It's all about the numbers.

Have they even made up 1% of the population yet? I guess we'll see on the 15th.

 

[JihadJane]

Yes, I understand it can be challenging and inconvenient to act at the grassroots level and reject corporate produced goods on principal. It's way easier to consume and complain.

As a member of the "99%" whose had his voice usurped by these activists I feel it's my duty to point out their inconsistencies and aid them in their quest from the bondage of corporate consumerism.

How, exactly, have they "usurped" your voice? Were you planning to go and sleep in a park or on the sidewalk?

need I mention that this whole thing started with Ad-busters, those very same people who sponsor buy nothing day.

Until OWS can actually figure out a demand ( might I suggest advocating for national health care plan in the U.S ? ) absolutely everything is on the table so far. Of course, this is all part of their marketing plan, this mysterious one demand. Come one come all and bring your favourite issues. It's all about the numbers.

There are numerous links posted in this thread outlining demands that protestors are making.

Ending the corruption of the political system by corporate money is one of the primary ones.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Actually, I'm closer in most regards to Islam and the Baha'i Faith.



Not sure what you mean by that. A rational society would include some elements of socialism, but only as regards the ecconomny and providing social services.

The Mondragon collectives of Spain look like a good model by which to transition a country away from pure capitalism.

When you can show me any country that uses pure capitalism, call me

PS: Mondragon, and Distributism, are somewhat related.

 

[Darth Rotor]

It works for what they do, much like the Amish making furniture. But it's tough to scale up in that model.

Correct.

 

[Drachasor]

Yes, I understand it can be challenging and inconvenient to act at the grassroots level and reject corporate produced goods on principal. It's way easier to consume and complain.

As a member of the "99%" whose had his voice usurped by these activists I feel it's my duty to point out their inconsistencies and aid them in their quest from the bondage of corporate consumerism.

need I mention that this whole thing started with Ad-busters, those very same people who sponsor buy nothing day.

Until OWS can actually figure out a demand ( might I suggest advocating for national health care plan in the U.S ? ) absolutely everything is on the table so far. Of course, this is all part of their marketing plan, this mysterious one demand. Come one come all and bring your favourite issues. It's all about the numbers.

Have they even made up 1% of the population yet? I guess we'll see on the 15th.

Wow...bunch of strawman arguments there. Maybe you should start your own group so your complaints will work. While I am sure some protesters dislike all corporations, most of the complaints seem to be regarding how corporations get bailed out and a lot of favoritism from the government while the average person is passed over.