UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

[Stray Cat]

I'm sure you guys've covered this stuff in the past before I came in, but perhaps you could explain the general thoughts you guys have about government cover-ups in UFO-incidents.

Again keeping this very short, suffice to say that the US government couldn't even "cover up" a blow job in the oval office that only involved two people.
Now think about the complexities involved in governments across the world (many who have been at war with each other) maintaining some sort of complete alliance on this single subject in order to keep the truth about "OMG-Aliens!" from the non governmental populations (bearing in mind the vast majority of 'information' about UFOs arrises from those same non governmental populations) and you start to see the improbability of such an effective "cover up".

 

[23_Tauri]

The USAF should knock up some kind of giant blimp and unleash it on April Fools Day.

Just as an aside, in case you weren't aware, there's a belief going around in CT circles that this is exactly what the NWO are planning for the 2012 Olympics in London. Aka faking the alien invasion.

 

[SezMe]

Again keeping this very short, suffice to say that the US government couldn't even "cover up" a blow job in the oval office that only involved two people.

Two minutes after the BJ, only two people knew about it. Two years after the BJ, only two people didn't know about it.

 

[remirol]

You obviously haven't been following the thread or edge's contribution. The correct decipherment is: Clockcheck extralarge sweatysun.

What does this have to do with Bigfoot?

 

[EHocking]

This.
Sunsquatch!

 

[RoboTimbo]

U in UFO means unidentified, however unidentified is not exactly same as "we don´t know".

Yes, that's exactly what it does mean. If someone knew what they saw, it would be an IFO.

There are cases, that we do know what it wasn´t. We can for example say that that particular ufo in case X was not bird, Venus, balloon, airplane, satellite etc. and still the UFO remains ufo. These kind of cases are most interesting, because they remain unidentified even though a plethora of mundane objects or phenomena can be ruled out.

Rramjet was famous here for making that same error. Ruling out any number of mundane objects still leaves you with an almost infinite variety of other mundane explanations (not just objects) that you haven't thought of. Despite his most ardent attempts, Rramjet was never able to figure out the mundane explanation I was thinking of. Can you?

This means that unidentified is not always 100% not knowing what something is. At least sometimes there is a possiblity to say what it is NOT.

Can you give an example of a UFO case where it was known what the explanation was? Your second sentence above is correct, we can often give a list of things that something likely isn't. For example, nobody has ever presented evidence of a UFO being aliens so we may effectively rule that one out until there is such evidence.

Even if there was a giant craft howering over the city. We couldn´t say that it is alien craft even if we would see aliens waving their hands in the windows. It would be still unidentified. We could only speculate it to be alien craft, but for certain we could not be.

Unfortunately, that's never what happens. What always happens is anecdotes and claims.

 

[Sideroxylon]

Rramjet was famous here for making that same error. Ruling out any number of mundane objects still leaves you with an almost infinite variety of other mundane explanations (not just objects) that you haven't thought of. Despite his most ardent attempts, Rramjet was never able to figure out the mundane explanation I was thinking of. Can you?

I'll have a go. The human factor as a mundane explanation cannot be ruled out no matter the qualifications and standing of the reporter of the sighting. Because we don't have direct access to the event, there are many mundane explanations that may not be as easily ruled out as the few objects with behaviour as regular as the planet Venus can be. They cannot be ruled out because human perception is theory laden and memory fallible, as well as the fact people, even those of good social standing, can lie and exaggerate.

 

[RoboTimbo]

I'll have a go. The human factor as a mundane explanation cannot be ruled out no matter the qualifications and standing of the reporter of the sighting. Because we don't have direct access to the event, there are many mundane explanations that may not be as easily ruled out as the few objects with behaviour as regular as the planet Venus can be. They cannot be ruled out because human perception is theory laden and memory fallible, as well as the fact people, even those of good social standing, can lie and exaggerate.

That was it, although I was thinking specifically of hoax, but that's included in what you've said. No wonder Rramjet never wanted to guess, he was afraid he might guess right!

 

[Archer17]

U in UFO means unidentified, however unidentified is not exactly same as "we don´t know". There are cases, that we do know what it wasn´t. We can for example say that that particular ufo in case X was not bird, Venus, balloon, airplane, satellite etc. and still the UFO remains ufo. These kind of cases are most interesting, because they remain unidentified even though a plethora of mundane objects or phenomena can be ruled out.

RoboTimbo and Sideroxylon already made my points so I'll just reiterate the problem I have with separating the wheat from the chaff with regard to UFO sightings: post-mortem "investigation" is usually nothing more than speculation (speculation that doesn't even include fabrication or hallucinations which do occur from time to time). Oh, we can rule out Venus at dusk if it's a 'morning star' etc but it's folly to think we can narrow any UFO sighting down to where only non-mundane explanations remain. Most UFO sightings, if taken at face value, don't resemble birds, planes, satellites, etc to begin with.

This means that unidentified is not always 100% not knowing what something is. At least sometimes there is a possiblity to say what it is NOT.

Back in July 2009 I saw a daytime UFO. I know it wasn't Venus (or likely Snoopy's flying dog house for that matter) but it still scores a 100% on not knowing what that "something" was. You gotta respect the 'U.' If you want to rule out things you better be prepared to provide irrefutable evidence for your conclusion(s), otherwise it's just speculation.

Even if there was a giant craft howering over the city. We couldn´t say that it is alien craft even if we would see aliens waving their hands in the windows. It would be still unidentified. We could only speculate it to be alien craft, but for certain we could not be.

True. I could think of several alternate explanations that don't require "aliens." What I've often told saucer-peddlers is it's their hypothetical ETI that holds the cards. Without an EBE or ETI technology that everyone can examine they have nothing but faith to hang their hats on and "cover-ups" to lean on.

 

[edge]

Originally Posted by edge
The whole point is that there is no down to earth explanation.
Come on black helicopters that do the cattle mutilations, is that what they would use?
That would indicate some kind of government involvement for whatever reasons.

None of this makes sense unless you look at it as spiritual deception, either by men or angels or both....

You're overlooking the fact that it's just a bunch of baloney. Blind acceptance of dubious anecdote isn't something you can ever hope to qualify and generating more dubious anecdote yourself just makes the woo-stew thicker.

Quote:
For instance a red glowing orb flew through my window and destroyed my TV...

I rest my case.

Quote:
But if you are a skeptic it never ends, because billions of people through out history are wrong and you are right simply because you have never seen anything yet, that could be or is your deception.

How can anyone be deceived by something they haven't experienced or saw concrete evidence for? I haven't seen an elf yet. Should I just accept their existence because more than a few people over time have claimed to see them? Maybe I should look for a dragon eating the sun next time my region has a solar eclipse, eh? See what I'm getting at? I claimed my rabbit poops gold but that doesn't mean she really does.

Quote:
Then there's this:
Last night at about 2 in the morning I had to wake some one up from sleep paralysis and night terrors.
They described the event as follows;
Her words: “ I was totally awake and aware of my surroundings but a black figure kept coming toward me telling me he was going to get me. Sooner or later he was going to get me. I kept screaming for my roommate but could not move. As he got closer to me, just about to tear at my clothing, my roommate appeared and I was instantly back in the realm of reality. My eyes were open the whole time but I could not move. It was not a dream. I know what a dream is and this was no dream. I was in a different realm but still aware. It was an evil entity that entered into my reality or I had and OBE. It was very real. This was not the first time it has happened. It has happened before several times. It is always the same faceless black figure. It seems the closer I get to Christ the worse it gets.”


I asked her why do you think that?

She said,
“It is because I fell from grace and need to repent and stay on the right path. There are two ways to live in this world. You can live the right way or you can live the wrong way. I feel that I did wrong and opened the door to evil.”

Her eyes were wide open and she didn't move till I touched her.
I have never seen fear like that, except from people I have seen recalling their abduction story.
It seems to be similar in nature.

As your second sentence even mentions, this appears to be a classic case of sleep paralysis with elements of hypnagogic hallucinations so in that respect I could see a corollary with alien abductions here, just not for the same reasons you do. (BTW, in case you haven't noticed, I'm not biting on your constant attempts to interject religion into this thread).

My advice edge is to run, not walk and get yourself a baloney-detector ASAP and allow the possibility that some others already have them. That'll save you some frustration next time you want to tell me something that looked like a Klingon photon torpedo blew up your TV and I don't automatically buy it.


I don't buy a kilingon torpedo went through my TV either because it wasn't one, that is pure Sci Fi, but two people witnessed the same thing so I will buy that it was an Orb because there are photos of them and reporting of that phenomenon, not only that but I have photos of them too.
Granted some photos that claim them, as orbs, are dust and water, but not the ones we can see with our own eyes with results of their actions.

You just can't take it at face value for what is reported, you keep changing the story to fit your beliefs as Cora said with her made up story that it was a succubus that was a butt nibbler too. No offence.

Blind acceptance of dubious anecdotes is not an option when it's a clear message and action by said objects and the timing is exactly where the evidence points.
From a biblical view-point since you already and firstly reject Christianity there is no need to send you any proof of anything from either side of the principalities that exist because you think they don't, simply put you are not in need of convincing the devil has you.
The devil has no need to deceive you, you are already deceived and because of your view-point you are now deceiving just like hoaxers in the sense you are claiming those who see are deluded or having hallucinations when they themselves know the difference. .
There is no need for Christians to guess from this viewpoint.


You’re coming from an anti-Christian viewpoint.


You verify that fact when you say in yellow above baloney in response to, spiritual deceptions.
In this respect it is Christians or others who believe in God that are being tested.
This is something to make them who are not lost believe in something else like aliens that will save the planet and us.

Seems to me that everyone who has sleep paralysis or night terrors tell the same story… or so similar that it is what it is, not what you wish it to be or to be changed to fit your mundane view of the world.

In my bolding above.
I have never seen an elf, these beings may have manifested that way 100s of years ago because of the times, but they keep changing with our advancements.
As far as your rabbit, that fertilizer is like gold if you are into gardening.

Paul2 I think said:

Would you believe me if I told you that a bright light once blew up my couch?

Yes or no?

And why?

No but if you said red orb and had a witness to the event I would have to consider the fact that you did see what you said you seen.
Because I have also seen red orbs, in that case I would say yes it’s the same as I seen.

The red orb another person and I saw was witnessed by both of us, it went through our TV, it did not hurt the windows or walls and they were unaffected, if you said it hurt the electrical system of something in your house like a radio or alarm system it would be even more believable.
A couch though isn’t as good evidence as something that would be affected by something that is plasma in nature or ball lightning or spiritual in nature, which also would have to have some sort of energy field.
You would have to have something better.
The proof I have is that I had to get a new TV and a witness was there for verification of all of this.
We could go father and say we could be regressed to see if our stories are truthful and match, plus we are willing to take a polygraph test, can you and will you?
That is the difference between your story and mine, and besides that, at this point I would say you made it up because of what I said.
So are you willing to do those two things and fail, because I know we wouldn’t and would take those tests.
That’s the difference.

But still you would say that isn’t enough right?

There would be something wrong with those tests. Yes?

Get yourself a baloney-detector ASAP

You trying to baloney me with baloney?
WTH
The truth could be in your face and as an anti-Christain you would never know the truth was in your face.

 

[RoboTimbo]

The truth could be in your face and as an anti-Christain you would never know the truth was in your face.

edge, please take your religious rants to the correct sub-forum. While you are there, practice using the quote function.

 

[dafydd]

You're overlooking the fact that it's just a bunch of baloney. Blind acceptance of dubious anecdote isn't something you can ever hope to qualify and generating more dubious anecdote yourself just makes the woo-stew thicker.


I rest my case.


How can anyone be deceived by something they haven't experienced or saw concrete evidence for? I haven't seen an elf yet. Should I just accept their existence because more than a few people over time have claimed to see them? Maybe I should look for a dragon eating the sun next time my region has a solar eclipse, eh? See what I'm getting at? I claimed my rabbit poops gold but that doesn't mean she really does.



As your second sentence even mentions, this appears to be a classic case of sleep paralysis with elements of hypnagogic hallucinations so in that respect I could see a corollary with alien abductions here, just not for the same reasons you do. (BTW, in case you haven't noticed, I'm not biting on your constant attempts to interject religion into this thread).

My advice edge is to run, not walk and get yourself a baloney-detector ASAP and allow the possibility that some others already have them. That'll save you some frustration next time you want to tell me something that looked like a Klingon photon torpedo blew up your TV and I don't automatically buy it.


I don't buy a kilingon torpedo went through my TV either because it wasn't one, that is pure Sci Fi, but two people witnessed the same thing so I will buy that it was an Orb because there are photos of them and reporting of that phenomenon, not only that but I have photos of them too.
Granted some photos that claim them, as orbs, are dust and water, but not the ones we can see with our own eyes with results of their actions.

You just can't take it at face value for what is reported, you keep changing the story to fit your beliefs as Cora said with her made up story that it was a succubus that was a butt nibbler too. No offence.

Blind acceptance of dubious anecdotes is not an option when it's a clear message and action by said objects and the timing is exactly where the evidence points.
From a biblical view-point since you already and firstly reject Christianity there is no need to send you any proof of anything from either side of the principalities that exist because you think they don't, simply put you are not in need of convincing the devil has you.
The devil has no need to deceive you, you are already deceived and because of your view-point you are now deceiving just like hoaxers in the sense you are claiming those who see are deluded or having hallucinations when they themselves know the difference. .
There is no need for Christians to guess from this viewpoint.


You’re coming from an anti-Christian viewpoint.


You verify that fact when you say in yellow above baloney in response to, spiritual deceptions.
In this respect it is Christians or others who believe in God that are being tested.
This is something to make them who are not lost believe in something else like aliens that will save the planet and us.

Seems to me that everyone who has sleep paralysis or night terrors tell the same story… or so similar that it is what it is, not what you wish it to be or to be changed to fit your mundane view of the world.

In my bolding above.
I have never seen an elf, these beings may have manifested that way 100s of years ago because of the times, but they keep changing with our advancements.
As far as your rabbit, that fertilizer is like gold if you are into gardening.

Paul2 I think said:

No but if you said red orb and had a witness to the event I would have to consider the fact that you did see what you said you seen.
Because I have also seen red orbs, in that case I would say yes it’s the same as I seen.

The red orb another person and I saw was witnessed by both of us, it went through our TV, it did not hurt the windows or walls and they were unaffected, if you said it hurt the electrical system of something in your house like a radio or alarm system it would be even more believable.
A couch though isn’t as good evidence as something that would be affected by something that is plasma in nature or ball lightning or spiritual in nature, which also would have to have some sort of energy field.
You would have to have something better.
The proof I have is that I had to get a new TV and a witness was there for verification of all of this.
We could go father and say we could be regressed to see if our stories are truthful and match, plus we are willing to take a polygraph test, can you and will you?
That is the difference between your story and mine, and besides that, at this point I would say you made it up because of what I said.
So are you willing to do those two things and fail, because I know we wouldn’t and would take those tests.
That’s the difference.

But still you would say that isn’t enough right?

There would be something wrong with those tests. Yes?




You trying to baloney me with baloney?
WTH
The truth could be in your face and as an anti-Christain you would never know the truth was in your face.

Who are you? I don't believe that you are Edge unless a miracle has occurred with his English. Either that or a cut and paste job.

 

[Sideroxylon]

Edge, have you ever read a sceptic work like Carl Sagan's "Demon Haunted World," which includes a baloney detection guide? I just reckon it might help in communicating with the folks on this forum if you had an understanding of the predominant world view here. Don't be mistaken in thinking that a lot of us here haven't read and believed the pro saucer books and even the Bible.

 

[Marduk]

Edge, have you ever read a sceptic work like Carl Sagan's "Demon Haunted World," which includes a baloney detection guide?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7472899&postcount=109

 

[Archer17]

I told you I'm not biting on your religious proselytizing edge. Save it for someone that does.

...I don't buy a kilingon torpedo went through my TV either because it wasn't one, that is pure Sci Fi, but two people witnessed the same thing so I will buy that it was an Orb because there are photos of them and reporting of that phenomenon, not only that but I have photos of them too.

That's just not good enough for anyone but you and others that accept anecdote blindly.

Granted some photos that claim them, as orbs, are dust and water, but not the ones we can see with our own eyes with results of their actions.

Do you see orbs all the time? If so I'd suggest a visit to the eye doctor. Seriously.

You just can't take it at face value for what is reported, you keep changing the story to fit your beliefs as Cora said with her made up story that it was a succubus that was a butt nibbler too. No offence.

I'm not offended, just puzzled. I didn't change anything edge. This is the second time you have accused me of posting something I didn't. That only reinforces questions I have about what you claim in other areas.

Blind acceptance of dubious anecdotes is not an option when it's a clear message and action by said objects and the timing is exactly where the evidence points.

I'm not sure if English is your first language so I'll cut you some slack for such a poorly-written sentence. If I understand it correctly you're basically telling me that blind acceptance of dubious anecdotes doesn't apply to you because you think those dubious anecdotes have merit for one reason or another.

OK.

Seems to me that everyone who has sleep paralysis or night terrors tell the same story… or so similar that it is what it is, not what you wish it to be or to be changed to fit your mundane view of the world.

You need to think outside your woo box and get a grasp of what sleep paralysis and audio/visual "waking dreams" really are. The "Old Hag" syndrome has been around since people slept and it's only relevance in this thread is how that sleep disorder could tie into the 'alien abduction' mythos. The points I previously raised regarding the problems with assigning reality to such experiences still stand no matter whether it's an old hag, big-eyed grey, or demon that's imagined.

I have never seen an elf, these beings may have manifested that way 100s of years ago because of the times, but they keep changing with our advancements.

So has fiction. Unfortunately I see no evidence you can determine where fiction ends and reality begins.

 

[Garrison]

Edge, have you ever read a sceptic work like Carl Sagan's "Demon Haunted World," which includes a baloney detection guide? I just reckon it might help in communicating with the folks on this forum if you had an understanding of the predominant world view here. Don't be mistaken in thinking that a lot of us here haven't read and believed the pro saucer books and even the Bible.

<raises hand sheepishly>

Yes I was raised Catholic AND I once upon a time read Berlitz and Von Daniken and believed every word, but then I got better...

 

[Stray Cat]

I don't buy a kilingon torpedo went through my TV either because it wasn't one, that is pure Sci Fi, but two people witnessed the same thing so I will buy that it was an Orb because there are photos of them and reporting of that phenomenon, not only that but I have photos of them too.

As this is the Evidence thread, perhaps it would be a good idea to post these photos you have of them.

 

[tomi71]

So, all UFOs are mundane? What´s the fuzz then? Why do governments have thousands of UFO-reports? Why are there cases that defy mundane explanation? If this is so easy, I wonder why sceticps just don´t explain those cases away. They can´t. Only thing they can is to speak a lot and loudly. That´s not however very good. It solves nothing. Where is the will to actually trying to find solutions to cases instead of ridicule. Scientific approach would be welcome to this forum.

 

[Resume]

So, all UFOs are mundane? What´s the fuzz then? Why do governments have thousands of UFO-reports? Why are there cases that defy mundane explanation? If this is so easy, I wonder why sceticps just don´t explain those cases away. They can´t. Only thing they can is to speak a lot and loudly. That´s not however very good. It solves nothing. Where is the will to actually trying to find solutions to cases instead of ridicule. Scientific approach would be welcome to this forum.

Do you have a verifiable non-mundane explanation hanging around on or about your person? Could you provide same so we can speak loudly about it?

 

[Stray Cat]

So, all UFOs are mundane?

That has to be the null hypothesis until some evidence is provided to falsify it... got any?

What´s the fuzz then? Why do governments have thousands of UFO-reports?

For the same reason that the police have thousands of unresolved crimes in their files. Did aliens commit those crimes?

Why are there cases that defy mundane explanation?

Which cases?

If this is so easy, I wonder why sceticps just don´t explain those cases away. They can´t.

There is no explanation necessary. That's why we have the null hypothesis.
If it was down to science to refute every silly claim, they would never get anything constructive done.

Only thing they can is to speak a lot and loudly. That´s not however very good. It solves nothing. Where is the will to actually trying to find solutions to cases instead of ridicule. Scientific approach would be welcome to this forum.

Just because the science doesn't support your PoV, doesn't mean people aren't using science. There can never be a scientific solution to an anecdote... That's why we have the null hypothesis.