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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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I tend to agree with you. The main risk to Knox, should this or any of the other slander verdicts pass the Italian courts' muster, is that she would not only never be able to return to Italy (obviously), but I think she'd have to avoid the countries of the European Union altogether, since I believe they have laws for the reciprocal honoring of legal damages. Now, that may not be important to the large bloc of "Proud Americans," who see no reason to ever visit Europe because everything here in the U.S. of A. is better than everything over there :boggled:, but I get the feeling Amanda Knox would feel differently (especially if, as I recall was mentioned at one point or another, she was hoping to become a translator).

I'm not following. A judgement gets transfered against a residence not against a place she is traveling through. I used to go to New York State daily, but if you want to sue me you had to do it in a New Jersey court.
 
Daily Mail

Has he ever explained why his comments to the daily mail conflict with his current account?
He claimed that the Daily Mail article is false, but (as LondonJohn) pointed out, he has not sued them, and that suggests that they have quotations from him on file.
 
I've asked you before to back up how Raffaele's supposed statements are evidenced. Have you ever responded? All you have are words written by the Italian police and these words are demonstrably false. There is no confirmation of the facts that the Italian police want to believe but there is confirmation of the previous account that both Amanda and Raffaele were presenting before the interrogations.

Raffaele was called in for questioning on November 5th after Kate Mansey published an account that confused Raffaele's movements on the 31st with the 1st. The interrogation on the 5th embellishes on that article and so appears to be more what the police wanted to hear than what Raffaele was saying. I suspect that interrogation was pretty much along the lines of the police saying "Isn't it true that you blah blah blah..." and Raffaele answering "whatever".


All this is nonsense.
Even Raffaele himself admits in his diary that in the Nov 5 questioning he did say that Amanda went out.

And now you come with the damage control "whatever" that it was the police and the press who changed it. :)
 
I'm not following. A judgement gets transfered against a residence not against a place she is traveling through. I used to go to New York State daily, but if you want to sue me you had to do it in a New Jersey court.

But isn't the judgment the result of the criminal proceeding? Isn't it more like court ordered restitution than a civil judgment? And in that case can't someone in defiance of such a judgment be jailed for contempt or something similar?

I don't think your analogy works, because the judgment has already been entered.

Also, if it is appealed, the Supreme court can vacate the conviction, correct? Meaning that the authorities would have to decide whether to refile, right? But if the Supreme Court holds that the murder acquittal was proper, they can't be tried again for that, can they?

At any rate, the entire focus of a new trial for defamation would be an interrogation that the Italian Supreme Court has already said violated basic human rights. I don't think the prosecutors would be wise to shine an even bigger spotlight on their own abuses of human rights.
 
Feeling Gravity's Pull

I woke up this morning to this Vogt article.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2016448492_knox09m.html

I don't get why the times publishes trash like this. This case has really made me question everything the media says more than ever.
NewtonTrino,

There is much to dislike in Ms. Vogt's article (there always is), but this quote stuck out: "As he said 'assoluzione per non aver commesso il fatto' — acquittal for not having committed the crime — Knox's sobs of relief broke the gravity and silence of the moment." I can see how Ms. Knox's sobs of relief broke the silence, but they were from a person who just found out that she would not have to spend another 22 years behind bars for a crime in which she manifestly played no role. That should remind everyone of the gravity of the situation. I hope that she is now getting plenty of sleep, with that all-important REM.
 
I woke up this morning to this Vogt article.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2016448492_knox09m.html

I don't get why the times publishes trash like this. This case has really made me question everything the media says more than ever.
2016447813.jpg


Italy still smarting over Amanda Knox acquittal
As he read the sentence, Judge Claudio Pratillo Hellman faced the terrified defendants, their anxious families and rows of photographers on stepladders behind them. As he said "assoluzione per non aver commesso il fatto" — acquittal for not having committed the crime — Knox's sobs of relief broke the gravity and silence of the moment.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2016448492_knox09m.html

A shame Italy, according to Vogt, cannot respect Hellman's words and their veracity.:mad:
 
in front of Judge Matteini

All this is nonsense.
Even Raffaele himself admits in his diary that in the Nov 5 questioning he did say that Amanda went out.

And now you come with the damage control "whatever" that it was the police and the press who changed it. :)
Bolint,

I seem to recall in one of the accounts of his appearance before Judge Matteini, he is alleged to have said that he could not be sure whether or not Amanda had left for a few minutes. However, he and Amanda both gave accounts of that evening which differed in when things happened, as opposed to what was done. Raffaele apparently said on the night of 5 November that Amanda went out on 1 November, but I would make two points. It would be helpful to have a recording of the interrogation, and I think it is important what he said on all other occasions.
 
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It's something I've noted too.

The guilters seem to be regressing in some quarters and going back over all the trivial little things, which have already been covered at length.

'She said this, he said that, she didn't do this, he didn't do that' etc etc.

I attribute some of it to their 'clutching at straws' but I think it is also partially down to trying to excuse their stance and trying to justify it, sometimes in a quite macabre way. :eek:

It's part of the campaign to excuse the Perugia authorities by claiming that Amanda and Raff brought their own misfortune on themselves, if not by committing the murder then by allegedly setting out to mislead the investigation. The guilter project would have no purpose other than to serve the interests of the Mignini-Maresca-Giobbi axis, which is now in damage limitation mode.

The reality, of course, is that all the reports of their alleged "lies" stem either from unsupported police accounts of their supposed statements, or from police manipulation (as in the Nov 5-6 interrogations) or from meaningless inconsistencies in what they really did say over 4 days of relentless questioning.
 
So the current explanation is that the contaminated bra clasp planted by the police does not have Raffaele's DNA? :D :D

I remember going through this dumbstruck, the only thing I could think was 'why didn't they just frame them?' It's nearly unbelievable to me that they actually offered those items as 'evidence' in any court in the world. Less developed countries might not employ DNA evidence, thus Italy probably does have the worst DNA evidence standards in the world, though honest prosecutors in Italy no doubt don't stoop to Mignini's level.

As for your question, it does appear the Conti-Vecchiotti Report (translated by Komponisto and Katy-Did!) Y-Haplotype of Raffaele was on the clasp, unfortunately the database is hardly complete and Raffaele's is not listed giving us no indication of the rarity in Puglia. His father was from that area too, wasn't he?

C&V Capillary Electrophoresis said:
The genetic profile thus derives from a mixture of unidentified biological substances (it will be recalled that no test was performed with a view toward revealing the presence of flaking cells, and so the claim is without scientific basis), whose larger component is represented by the DNA of the victim and whose smaller component is represented by DNA from several individuals (cf. autosomic STRs) of male sex (cf. Y chromosome), of which one of the Y haplotypes corresponds to the Y haplotype of Raffaele Sollecito

So the y-haplotype is probably his, but there's so much mess it doesn't come out in the autosomic and of course Meredith's dwarfs his:

C&V Capillary Electrophoresis Autosomic STRs said:
Thus, the interpretation of the electropherogram is rather more complex and involved [articolata] than what is reported in the RTIGF. Indeed, even if one were to arbitrarily limit the application of Recommendation 6 to peaks in stutter position above the threshold of 50 RFU, this still reveals a profile deriving from the mixture of several individuals consisting of a major contributor and several minor contributors, as summarized in the table below:

So it's probably Raffaele's, but as the Judge said it might not be. It's not like the 1 in millions type odds you get with a real DNA profile, and of course, no one knows what it is. Think about that for a second, that's the true danger with this LCN DNA, DNA doesn't work as a GPS or a timestamp, all it does is identify biological material found. So....what did they find? You find blood, or semen, or saliva and as long as it's inherent to the room, it's pretty much identified for you, much better than the days of saying the blood type was compatible with O+ or something. Plus the items aren't even inherent to the room! 'Hypothesizing' about flaked skin cells is all fun and games until you realize that means either could easily have happened by secondary or tertiary transfer as well, playing with DNA this small means all the old rules are broken, and as for the knife--that never left the drawer.

My guess is the same as both defense lawyers: it's a 'prop.' They never intended to actually use it in court, it was mainly to get Amanda to confess, they hit her hard with mindgames all at this same time: the *cough* 'clear-cut' CCTV, the bogus knife, the HIV false positive which gave them the goods for the Foxy Knoxy smear to go along with all the lies that Curious has been posting, including the ones about the washing machine and the laundromat. Maybe they figured they could get away with it when Stefanoni confirmed it, who knows. It's garbage and even if it was legit it wouldn't be very good evidence of murder anyway due to the absolute lack of corroborating evidence in the room.

At any rate, with no biological material the most obvious answer is not skin cells, it's the fact that during the PCR amplification stage they multiply 67 million DNA, which won't come with a biological substance in a lab not equipped for it which makes pretensions it never had any contamination ever. That's like a major league pitcher saying he never gave up a run--it's impossible. So if they say that it means two things: They're lying and they're highly susceptible to contamination.

It's one of those ones where you wonder if they're trying to pretend they're so incompetent they can't be corrupt, or if they're corrupt because no one can be that incompetent. There's a lot of that going around this case...
 
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Moore on Perugia

A shame Italy, according to Vogt, cannot respect Hellman's words and their veracity.:mad:
smkovalinsky,

As Steve Moore said, "After the ‘impromptu’ demonstration, the men began individual fist-fights with Italian Amanda supporters, (I counted at least five such fights) and generally shamed the town of Perugia at a moment when the city deserved to be basking in the glory of the world spotlight. I want to point out here that the people of Perugia are good, honorable people, by and large."
 
If the network is operating then delivery is immediate, unless the phone is inaccessible. There were no problems with the network that night so it is only the accessibility of the phone that counts.

I'm sitting here at my desk, right in the middle of one of the most technologically advance cities in the world, with a 1Gb fibre connection right to my apartment, and in a location, according to the telcos, with fully operational 4G mobile broadband.

My cell phone is turned on. If you send me an SMS right now, I almost certainlywon't get it. The phone even has signal bars, but I won't get the SMS. If I go step on to my balcony, the SMS may come through then. It might even come through if I go to my bathroom (interestingly, more in the center of the building).

I have no problem at all believing Sollecito's phone may have been on all night and he didn't get the SMS until next morning.

ETA: Oh - and I have no idea if I turned the phone off at all yesterday. Whether something is remembered clearly or not is primarily determined by what you were doing at the time of the event in question and how important it was. My brain doesn't bother remembering things like when or if I turned my phone off. Utterly unimportant to me.
 
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it is not as simple as we wish it were

So the current explanation is that the contaminated bra clasp planted by the police does not have Raffaele's DNA? :D :D
Bolint,

When there is a single, strong profile on an item of evidence, DNA profiling is relatively straightforward. I seem to recall one DNA forensic scientist saying words to the effect that "either you are excluded or you are not." Life gets a little more complicated with mixtures, and with low template-associated effects such as peak height imbalance and increased size of stutter peaks. It seems paradoxical, but I tend toward the conclusion that Raffaele may well have contributed to the clasp, but that other interpretations are possible. IMO the analysis of mixtures is not entirely settled yet.
 
The phone turned off conversation is another diversion. There is little, if any, evidence that it in fact occurred and no argument that makes it evidence that they committed murder.

My SO's kids call me all the time to get the SO to answer the phone or return a text. She turns off the phone to avoid them. Some phones work differently when charging and don't seem to ring - maybe a feature for charging at night.

They would have left their phones on and at home if they were planning a murder.

Since Raffaele never claimed to have turned his phone off perhaps some proof needs to be given that it was. I sometimes get delayed text messages.

The idea that either the phones were off or not was never an issue in my own thinking on this case. That RS's fathers txt didn't reach him until some hours later was also never an issue for me. Why? Because delayed txts is nothing new. I can be in the next room to my daughter, send her a text and she won't get it for hours. Yet I can send one across town and that daughter will get it right away...or even stranger....I can send the in house daughter 2 texts within say 5 minutes of each other, one she'll get right away, the other one she'll get a few hours later and way out of context of what we were discussing. It's irritating but it happens...way more often than one would think.
 
smkovalinsky,

As Steve Moore said, "After the ‘impromptu’ demonstration, the men began individual fist-fights with Italian Amanda supporters, (I counted at least five such fights) and generally shamed the town of Perugia at a moment when the city deserved to be basking in the glory of the world spotlight. I want to point out here that the people of Perugia are good, honorable people, by and large."
Thanks for those words from Steve Moore!:jaw-dropp Will add them also to my remarks on Websleuths. Thanks again!:D
 
He claimed that the Daily Mail article is false, but (as LondonJohn) pointed out, he has not sued them, and that suggests that they have quotations from him on file.

Well I actually believe Patrick over the Daily Mail. This is the same paper and same "journalist"( Pisa) that posted Amanda Knox was guilty with FAKE QUOTES. I don't know how anyone can trust anything they report after that atrociously false article. Patrick should sue them.
 
Well I actually believe Patrick over the Daily Mail. This is the same paper and same "journalist"( Pisa) that posted Amanda Knox was guilty with FAKE QUOTES. I don't know how anyone can trust anything they report after that atrociously false article. Patrick should sue them.

He probably had two articles prepared, one in the case of a guilty verdict and the other in case of an acquittal. He obviously wanted to be first journalist to post about the outcome, but he jumped the gun after hearing the first guilty verdict to the slander charge and prematurely pressed the post button for the guilty article. A stupid mistake but not atrocious imo.

I think people are being too hard on him.
 
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He probably had two articles prepared, one in the case of a guilty verdict and the other in case of an acquittal. He obviously wanted to be first journalist to post about the outcome, but he jumped the gun after hearing the first guilty verdict to the slander charge and prematurely pressed the post button for the guilty article. A stupid mistake but not atrocious imo.

I think people are being too hard on him.

Simply publishing the wrong article would be understandable. I believe Sky made the same mistake.

That's not the problem. The problem is publishing an article with fake quotes and fake descriptions of the scene.
 
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