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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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I feel we are going round in circles re. the DNA evidence, its all very reminiscent of the OJ case which at least proves that the Italian police are not alone in bungling cases such as these. There was only one drop of Merediths blood in Filomenas room but somehow Amanda managed to stick her foot in it. She came home to a trainwreck of an apartment and decided to take a shower in a blood-spattered bathroom...this woman must be a nightmare to all DNA collectors!:)

Then there is the fact - undeniable! - that she lied from the very first minute long before the police even entered the scene.

Oh and then there was the fact that both she and Sollecito switched off their mobiles on the night of the murder.

Yes I suppose the handstands, cartwheels, lack of concern for the victim, poking tongues out, laughing, kissing bf can all be put down to an interesting way or coping with stress.:)
 
You'll be interested to hear that Popper on PMF has revised his odds of a conviction for Sollecito and Knox down from 99% certain to.....


....85% certain!

You couldn't make this stuff up! :D:D:D
 
I feel we are going round in circles re. the DNA evidence, its all very reminiscent of the OJ case which at least proves that the Italian police are not alone in bungling cases such as these. There was only one drop of Merediths blood in Filomenas room but somehow Amanda managed to stick her foot in it. She came home to a trainwreck of an apartment and decided to take a shower in a blood-spattered bathroom...this woman must be a nightmare to all DNA collectors!:)

Then there is the fact - undeniable! - that she lied from the very first minute long before the police even entered the scene.

Oh and then there was the fact that both she and Sollecito switched off their mobiles on the night of the murder.

Yes I suppose the handstands, cartwheels, lack of concern for the victim, poking tongues out, laughing, kissing bf can all be put down to an interesting way or coping with stress.:)


You're just teasing us, aren't you?
 
''48 HOURS'' - the popular CBS News Video presents:​

Amanda Knox: The untold story


For those of you (like me) who missed this last night - here is the link - I'm off to watch it!!


http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7383976n&tag=contentMain;contentBody

You'll be interested to know that guermantes on PMF has announced that the whole 42 minutes is full of "lies, misinformation and distortions of facts". He was able to tell this by watching the first 10 minutes and then switching off.

You couldn't make this stuff up! :D:D:D:D
 
You'll be interested to know that guermantes on PMF has announced that the whole 42 minutes is full of "lies, misinformation and distortions of facts". He was able to tell this by watching the first 10 minutes and then switching off.

You couldn't make this stuff up! :D:D:D:D

It was really good; I recommend it. More moving than most of the recent reporting. And when Nina Burleigh was explaining what Mignini tried to do to Amanda at the appeals trial, she said, "There's a reason vendetta is an Italian word."
 
captain Amanda

I feel we are going round in circles re. the DNA evidence, its all very reminiscent of the OJ case which at least proves that the Italian police are not alone in bungling cases such as these. There was only one drop of Merediths blood in Filomenas room but somehow Amanda managed to stick her foot in it. She came home to a trainwreck of an apartment and decided to take a shower in a blood-spattered bathroom...this woman must be a nightmare to all DNA collectors!:)

Then there is the fact - undeniable! - that she lied from the very first minute long before the police even entered the scene.

Oh and then there was the fact that both she and Sollecito switched off their mobiles on the night of the murder.

Yes I suppose the handstands, cartwheels, lack of concern for the victim, poking tongues out, laughing, kissing bf can all be put down to an interesting way or coping with stress.:)
Madrigal,

I have to wonder whether or not you are reading the links I have provided so far. There were two luminol-positive blobs in Filomena's room. One had a mixture of Amanda's and Meredith's DNA, and the other had their DNA plus the DNA from at least one other person. There is no evidence that Meredith's blood was present in either blob. Can you make up a scenario in which the blobs (or the footprints in the hallway, for that matter) mean anything? Can you exclude alternative hypotheses?

BTW, Phone companies don't keep records of when people turn on and off their phones. And (as been pointed out many times on this thread) if Amanda and Raffaele had been planning ahead to murder Meredith, they would have left their cell phones on but left them at Raf's flat.

Have you seen pictures of the bathroom? Calling it blood splattered is a bit over the top, IMO.
 
Moore's take on Knox as a person

It was really good; I recommend it. More moving than most of the recent reporting. And when Nina Burleigh was explaining what Mignini tried to do to Amanda at the appeals trial, she said, "There's a reason vendetta is an Italian word."

Steve Moore has a new article up at his blog.
 
I feel we are going round in circles re. the DNA evidence, its all very reminiscent of the OJ case which at least proves that the Italian police are not alone in bungling cases such as these. There was only one drop of Merediths blood in Filomenas room but somehow Amanda managed to stick her foot in it. She came home to a trainwreck of an apartment and decided to take a shower in a blood-spattered bathroom...this woman must be a nightmare to all DNA collectors!:)

Then there is the fact - undeniable! - that she lied from the very first minute long before the police even entered the scene.

Oh and then there was the fact that both she and Sollecito switched off their mobiles on the night of the murder.

Yes I suppose the handstands, cartwheels, lack of concern for the victim, poking tongues out, laughing, kissing bf can all be put down to an interesting way or coping with stress.:)

Blood spattered bathroom? Really??!
And, as for being a nightmare for forensics- the forensics collectors, combined with Filomena, did more to contaminate the scene than Amanda and Raffaelle.
The apartment wasn't really a train wreck, Postal police not concerned enough to break down the door.
There is a perfectly reasonable explanation compatible with innocence for the phones being turned off.
Lack of concern for the victim- this is just false.
Kissing is not just a sexual activity (for those of us who aren't guilters) but also a sign of love and affection and comfort.
Exercising at Questura- Amanda was trying to keep body and soul (metaphorically, of course) together over an extremely trying week helping the police during most of her waking hours. Perfectly reasonable and compatible with innocence.
If this is the case against Amanda Knox, then her acquittal was the obvious and correct outcome.
 
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You'll be interested to hear that Popper on PMF has revised his odds of a conviction for Sollecito and Knox down from 99% certain to.....


....85% certain!

You couldn't make this stuff up! :D:D:D

He is making that prediction based on a false assumption:

To be more concrete, Hellmann's appeal has to motivate the decision with an explanation of WHO WAS IN THE FLAT.

All Hellmann has to do is to point out the obvious. There is no proof that Amanda and Raffaele were involved in the murder of Meredith Kercher. These are the two that were on trial in Hellmann's court, not Rudy Guede or some mythical others.
 
I wonder how Patrick will feel when he comes to the realization that he has just blown his chance at an ECHR award. I suggest he just wait patiently next to his mailbox for Amanda's check. I am sure it will be coming.......any day now.

It might be anyway, it seems to me Amanda feels absolutely terrible about the whole thing, despite the circumstances. Plus she might just pay him off so it isn't a news item in the Daily Mail every month until she does.

Frankly I find it repellent that he thinks those vague and confused statements with that note qualifying them forevermore later in the day that netted him two while weeks in jail is anything compared to what he did to Amanda afterward. He helped the smear campaign for four years, in court and out, lying and saying outrageous things about her in hopes of netting her a lifetime in jail, and he did all that on purpose in order to hurt her.
 
I was not there during the murder or trial. I do not know whether Knox was directly involved or not. I know only that she was convicted in a situation where the court system is very flawed (not that US is perfect by any means) and the police work was, by any standards I can think of, shoddy. That, unfortunately does not make Knox either guilty or innocent, it just means the Italian court and jury acknowledged the shoddiness of the case (and the system). No one except those directly responsible for the killing knows if Knox is guilty or innocent and therefore no guessers are right or wrong - including Fiona. Note, I have no idea which side Fiona was on but I am sorry she left over something that will likely never be adequately proven without direct verifiable proof/statements by all involved.

Fuelair, you are mistaken, a conviction in the trial of the first instance means nothing. It's like a bill passing the House of Representatives. It has to be passed by the Senate and then signed by the president, otherwise it's nothing. Same with the Italian process, it must go through the first trial, then a motivations report published and the defense writes the appeal documents, and then the second trial commences. Then it goes to the Supreme Court to be finalized. All of this is automatic, unless the defendant chooses the 'fast track' option like Rudy Guede did, where the first trial is abbreviated, and the second one basically skipped before ratified by the Supreme Court. Something on the order of 40% of trials of the first instance are overturned or adjusted, what happened in this case is not unusual in Italy.

The judge indicated it's a 530.1 decision, that's the exoneration code, meaning it's not like they just acknowledged the holes the case, that would be a 530.2 verdict which he specifically said it would not be. If you're still interested and in doubt wait a few months for the Hellmann Report and you will see the 'evidence' addressed as it deserves, which will be a far cry from how Massei did. There'll be no 'bloody footprints,' the bathmat stain will be returned to Rudy etc. A motivations report is a post-hoc rationalization for a verdict, the judge has to go through the evidence and tie it to the murder and come up with a narrative that shows the defendant's guilt. Basically the stupider it sounds and the more tenuous the connections the more likely they're innocent. At the beginning of the trial the judge indicated the entirety of the Massei Report was baseless when he said in reference to it 'the only thing for certain is Merdith Kercher is dead, which basically flushed all those silly 'it's possible, indeed probable' formulations down the commode. It made for excellent satire material though! :)

I know you can find media reports saying different things, quotes from the judge that it's possible they were involved, that there's evidence they were and of course the deluded prosecutor still thinks they're guilty and will appeal. Just give it time, wait for the report. Currently there's a fair number of second-string reporters with egg on their faces attempting to justify four years of reporting prosecution lies as absolute truths, they're not filling in the context and explaining the logic of the Italian courts, much like those who simply reported Mignini and Maresca's distortions of the meaning of Rudy Guede's Motivations report as though it was going to damn Raffaele and Amanda somehow even though they weren't represented at that trial.

That's obviously ridiculous, just as some of the things they're saying now are. Think of it as a trial where the defendant is found guilty but the lawyer still proclaims his client's innocence and vows there will be an appeal. It's meaningless, except there's a prosecutor soon facing court for his corruption charges who'd love to keep the idea alive he might still garner a conviction from the case where he did the same damn thing as he was convicted for himself in the Monster of Florence case. That sort of recidivism doesn't really look good for his suspended sentence, which could be increased at the second trial to the point it's no longer suspended....

For example, here's how it works in the logic of the Italian Courts: It's possible you were involved in the murder, there exists evidence you were, and there's a witness who says you were. Me--right now! :p

The Massei Report for you would read that you don't have an alibi for the murder and a witness places you at the scene. The evidence is you're 'lying' about the case, 'obviously' in an attempt even at this late date to obscure your involvement. Since you're 'lying' about that you must be lying about not being there--you've placed yourself at the scene!

(this is no less stupid than the misunderstanding about the door being locked which was considered 'evidence' in the first trial)

The Hellmann Report would read: you don't have to prove an alibi, I cannot corroborate my seeing you there at all, in fact I don't even know what you look like, and my passport doesn't even indicate I was in Italy that night. I must be on drugs if I'm saying I saw you. Regarding your mis-statement: it has nothing to do with the murder, it's more probable you're going off mistaken media accounts, and it's damned idiotic to think that means you're lying about not being there.

I suspect you're unaware of the breadth of the evidence that Raffaele and Amanda were not involved, it will take some time to be disseminated. Until now there was a natural reluctance to accept arguments from the defense, and a tendency to assume the prosecution might still be right.
 
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I feel we are going round in circles re. the DNA evidence, its all very reminiscent of the OJ case which at least proves that the Italian police are not alone in bungling cases such as these. There was only one drop of Merediths blood in Filomenas room but somehow Amanda managed to stick her foot in it.

I think you might misunderstand how DNA evidence works. There is nothing in any way incriminating about Amanda's DNA being in her own house. Your DNA is all over your house, and it's perfectly possible it's in someone else's room in your house without you being a murderer.

If someone dripped a drip of blood on a random spot in your house, what would it prove if we found your DNA in that spot?

She came home to a trainwreck of an apartment and decided to take a shower in a blood-spattered bathroom...this woman must be a nightmare to all DNA collectors!:)

The "blood-spattered bathroom" is another guilter myth, possibly initiated by the police leaking a misleading photograph of the bathroom covered in the pink remains of forensic testing with phenolpthalein. There was a very faint footprint on the bathmat made in a mix of water and blood, and traces of blood in the bidet and sink, but nothing resembling a "blood-spattered" bathroom. There was no spattering.

Then there is the fact - undeniable! - that she lied from the very first minute long before the police even entered the scene.

We can deny it based on very good reason. The guilter meme that Amanda lied a lot completely breaks down when you get guilters to pony up the exact "lies", because it always turns out the "lies" were not only totally immaterial to the case but that they are inevitably explainable as failures of memory.

This isn't a case where the suspect says "I was at my mum's place" then changes their story to "I was at the beach". It's a case where the suspect says "I called these two phones, one immediately after the other, in the order X then Y" and guilters howl "Aha! It was actually Y then X you evil witch! We have irrefutable proof now!".

Oh and then there was the fact that both she and Sollecito switched off their mobiles on the night of the murder.

So what? It's not evidence of murder if two people known to be in the early days of a sexual relationship turn their phones off for a night of uninterrupted cohabitation, or at best it's incredibly weak evidence.

Yes I suppose the handstands, cartwheels, lack of concern for the victim, poking tongues out, laughing, kissing bf can all be put down to an interesting way or coping with stress.:)

Qualified psychologists wouldn't try to determine someone's guilt or innocence based on armchair guesswork about how that person would react to stress, grief or fear. It's simply a fact that people have all sorts of different reactions to such events. Unqualified layperson's trying to make such judgments signify nothing.
 
A 530.1 on the staging, just to make an example, if accepted by the Supreme Court would cause the Rudy verdict to crumble, and he would be almost certainly set free, for years (or for ever), while awaiting a new trial (without him taking any risk of sentencing increase in any case).

Surely, though, a 530.1 on the staging would only mean that there's no evidence of any staging: they can't rule it out completely because, after all, someone might've staged a break-in by throwing a rock through the window and then climbing in, leaving evidence identical to what we'd expect from a real break-in. Why would this charge in particular lead to Rudy's verdict being overturned? (as opposed to, say, a 530.1 on the murder charge).
 
It was my impression from reading between the lines (I could be wrong, of course) that Lumumba was somebody who was already on the local police's list of people-they-didn't-like; so the moment his name came up there might have been an element of "at last we've got the bugger".
 
What is that perfectly reasonable explanation?

Amanda and Raffaelle wanted to spend an uninterrupted evening together, and didn't want to be disturbed, either by Lumumba calling up if the bar got busy, or by Raffaelle's father.
They were a new couple, and wanted some privacy to 'enjoy each others company'!
Simple.
 
It was my impression from reading between the lines (I could be wrong, of course) that Lumumba was somebody who was already on the local police's list of people-they-didn't-like; so the moment his name came up there might have been an element of "at last we've got the bugger".

He was considered something of a leader in his community, a crowd eventually gathered protesting for his release. It would not surprise me that he might have somehow drawn the ire of the police in Perugia. Something has to explain that absurd arrest off of those statements.
 
Amanda and Raffaelle wanted to spend an uninterrupted evening together, and didn't want to be disturbed, either by Lumumba calling up if the bar got busy, or by Raffaelle's father.
They were a new couple, and wanted some privacy to 'enjoy each others company'!
Simple.

Simple and perfect.
Now it shoud be made even more prefect by building in somehow that Raffaele claims not to have turned off his phone at all.
 
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