Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[smkovalinksy]

You know - there are quite a few parallels between this case and between the 1992conviction of Michelle and Lisa Taylor for the 1991 murder of Alison Shaughnessy (quashed on appeal 1993).

Thanks for pointing this out. I can see the parallels:

Murder trial sisters convicted by the media:

Court of Appeal is told that police concealed evidence which might have pointed to Michelle and Lisa Taylor's innocence, in a case that was always thin

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...e-in-a-case-that-was-always-thin-1491035.html

 

[Chris_Halkides]

not past 10

One presumes that as with Lumumbo, Filomena & Laura have concrete alibi's for the time of the murder thus counting them out as suspects.

Are there any witnesses to provide an alibi for Amanda and Raff?

Filomena only has the alibi of being at a party until about 10 O'clock, then she and her boyfriend were alone. I alluded to this earlier today.

 

[Poppy1016]

Ok I give up. Since my questions are not worthy of answers, I'll stick to reading here.

 

[smkovalinksy]

Ok I give up. Since my questions are not worthy of answers, I'll stick to reading here.

I have experienced the same, but just keep "toughing it out", and sometimes I get a treasure-trove of replies. do not give up. By the way, what did you ask???

 

[charlatan]

Ok I give up. Since my questions are not worthy of answers, I'll stick to reading here.

LOL, I thought your questions were rhetorical in nature, or else addressed to Machiavelli. The answers are pretty clear in my mind.

 

[Teddy2007]

I see that our friend Giuliano Mignini put in prison porno start Brigitta Bulgari for having performed her act in front of minors. Of course she wasn't responsible for who entered the club, that was the job of the owners of the club. That didn't stop Miss Bulgari from spending 11 days in prison for what was obviously a nonsensical charge. Consider also that Bulgari was not a danger to the public, so is it not odd that she did 11 days of prison time while waiting to find out whether she'd be charged, rather than being sent home?

http://www.libero-news.it/news/839537/Pm-di-Amanda-che-carriera-voleva-in-carcere-Brigitta.html

Maybe Machiavelli, friend of Mignini, can shed more light on this story? Is this also Preston's fault?

Translation: Porn star imprisoned. Why, what for? She was nude in front of minors... Authoritative and zealous, PM Giuliano Mignini (yes, the one who cooked up the Knox-Sollecito thing), had also put in chains even Brigitta Bulgari. Her crime? To have stripped nude - during a red-light show - in front of minors. The young lady yesterday was released: The age of the customers should be verified by the manager of the club, not the one who goes on stage. Incredible, but true.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

habeas schmabeas

I will try again with this question. Is it normal practice to bring officials from Rome late at night and use half of the police force to " interview" someone who is not a suspect? Also, is it normal and legal to refuse legal representation? AK&RS were denied not just that night but long afterwards. Is it normal and legal to tap the phones of people who are not suspects, and also their families?

Poppy1016,

I do not know the answers to your questions. However, Sollecito and Knox were not allowed to speak with lawyers until shortly before they had to appear in front of Judge Matteini. My understanding is that Judge Matteini allowed them to be held under a precautionary detention law. Therefore, the prosecution had until October 2008 (nearly a year) to gather evidence against them and bring charges in front of Judge Micheli. Italy does not have a habeas corpus statute, but this still strikes me as fundamentally wrong.

 

[Fine]

Contact Barbie, she has interviewed a dozen DNA forensic experts and they tell her its the volume of DNA or some such reason. Or was it dozens of experts?

The mixed blood argument never provides the source of Amanda's blood nor does it ever explain if she was bleeding why they didn't find this blood anywhere in the murder room, or anywhere except three tiny drops on the faucet.

__________________

Grinder,

Barbie said she had consulted dozens of them experts.........

Barbie: "There are mixed genetic traces in spots of blood in which Amanda's traces are higher than Meredith's. That implies mixed blood according to the dozens of forensics experts I've interviewed about this."

It implies no such thing. If they were experts Barbie didn't understand. (Surprise.) Anyone with modest familiarity with DNA would have told Barbie that the results could also imply sloppy collection procedures. Or there was poor analysis of the samples in the lab. Or an indication of poor hygiene by Amanda. (Or that ketchup was mistaken for blood?) And so forth.

///

 

[charlatan]

As LJ noted immediately and Komponisto & Katy-Did soon corroborated (I think I recall that sequence right) the C & V report did not just condemn the DNA, but the entire forensic debacle.

The DNA 'evidence' was crucial as it was in the most important spot and had the 'magic DNA effect' going for it and was the only thing that even implied Raffaele and Amanda were in the murder room. However as simply evidence it was the worst as it was developed under such suspicious circumstances and was so weak in nature it was actually evidence against the prosecution.

In my view the best actual physical evidence was the blood spot on the tap. Unlike all the rest of it, that actually existed and definitely placed Amanda at a spot the murderer cleaned up and Meredith's blood was present. It never mixed and was coagulated suggesting compared to the victim's blood it was older, and of course Amanda had no wounds, but at least it was real. The luminol prints were just stains that tested negative for blood, the 'mixed DNA' was meaningless, the 'staged' break-in was a joke and the bathmat print looked more like Rudy's to most people, so it's not like it had much competition, but at least it didn't run over half a dozen falsifiers to even be considered evidence at all.

This is why I give no weight to certain ominous predictions about a possible prosecution appeal. The hard physical evidence just isn't there and what remains is hopelessly contradictory. Even in the unlikely event the supreme court views C&V as controversial, they'll punt the whole mess down for the "re-review" the prosecution requested rather than reaffirming the original conviction outright. Because evidence doesn't age like fine wine, there is every reason to believe a re-review would reach substantially the same conclusions as C&V.

This won't happen of course, because it's in no one's interest to waste any more time on the prosecution's moribund theories.

 

[charlatan]

I see that our friend Giuliano Mignini put in prison porno start Brigitta Bulgari for having performed her act in front of minors. Of course she wasn't responsible for who entered the club, that was the job of the owners of the club. That didn't stop Miss Bulgari from spending 11 days in prison for what was obviously a nonsensical charge. Consider also that Bulgari was not a danger to the public, so is it not odd that she did 11 days of prison time while waiting to find out whether she'd be charged, rather than being sent home?

The video is here for anyone who, *ahem*, wants to "study" the important details of this case.

 

[Machiavelli]

I see that our friend Giuliano Mignini put in prison porno start Brigitta Bulgari for having performed her act in front of minors. Of course she wasn't responsible for who entered the club, that was the job of the owners of the club. That didn't stop Miss Bulgari from spending 11 days in prison for what was obviously a nonsensical charge. Consider also that Bulgari was not a danger to the public, so is it not odd that she did 11 days of prison time while waiting to find out whether she'd be charged, rather than being sent home?

http://www.libero-news.it/news/839537/Pm-di-Amanda-che-carriera-voleva-in-carcere-Brigitta.html

Maybe Machiavelli, friend of Mignini, can shed more light on this story? Is this also Preston's fault?

Translation: Porn star imprisoned. Why, what for? She was nude in front of minors... Authoritative and zealous, PM Giuliano Mignini (yes, the one who cooked up the Knox-Sollecito thing), had also put in chains even Brigitta Bulgari. Her crime? To have stripped nude - during a red-light show - in front of minors. The young lady yesterday was released: The age of the customers should be verified by the manager of the club, not the one who goes on stage. Incredible, but true.

Yes I can easilly answer. The problem is Mignini had no choice. The code article (609 quater) has been recently modified and compells the magistrate to issue cautionary arrest in all cases when there is any sort of payment for the sexual act with minor. There was a proposed paragraph to emend the compelling, but was abolished. Whenever anybody is investigated for this crime and had been detected by the police in real time while committing it, must be put under arrest while awaiting any judge decision, the prosecutor has no legal option.

 

[Machiavelli]

I and the other people who have requested (about 7 or 8 now, not sure...should be a dozen soon) Machiavelli to translate that sentence uttered by Hellman in Italian to English might beg to differ.

As far as I can see, he hasn't had the opportunity to translate it word for word yet.

I'm sure he is a busy man though.

I'm off out to grab a bite to eat - hope to catch up later.

What sentence?

 

[Machiavelli]

The innocence of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.
.

In that case there is no topic.

 

[Freddy]

In that case there is no topic.

I think you misread that. He did not say the topic was the conscience of Giuliano Mignini.

 

[Katody Matrass]

I wanted to thank Greggy. It takes self awareness to see through the biases and errors of judgement that we all make. It takes courage to admit it.

I wanted to thank even more to Bruce.
The work you did and are still doing is amazing. Despite the attacks, insults, hunting down, stalking, you did your part of the job. Your website, forum, innumerable articles and blogposts, your book, all of it amazing work. Amanda is free. Raf is free. You did your part of the job.
I belong to the majority of the concerned, but still just observers. The much smaller group of people who were concerned enough to get involved and get things done deserve utmost respect. You have the honour to be among them. Thank you and thanks to all of those. Good job.

 

[Scorpion NITE]

What sentence?

Well, the same one alluded to by several posters who addressed you directly.

I have copied and pasted this sentence from LashL's earlier question to you (I'm hopeful she won't mind me repeating the exact sentence). Please could you give us an English translation word by word for the following sentence uttered by Judge Hellman? (You do not need to write anything else whatsoever - just a simple word for word translation).


''Nel nostro caso non abbiamo richiamato il secondo comma dell'articolo 530 del Codice''

 

[Scorpion NITE]

Once again, I'm reminded of Daniel Patrick Moynihan's famous statement that "everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but everyone is not entitled to their own facts."

I wish I could have remembered that quotation and who said it, but sincere thanks for reminding me!

 

[Scorpion NITE]

The innocence of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.
Translating judge Hellmann's words.
You're refusal to look at the evidence and draw a reasonable conclusion. Instead, you're stuck. There was a verdict that was based on something that is the most important thing is this case, evidence.

In that case there is no topic.

So what are you discussing the above for if there is no topic?

 

[Scorpion NITE]

This is why I give no weight to certain ominous predictions about a possible prosecution appeal. The hard physical evidence just isn't there and what remains is hopelessly contradictory. Even in the unlikely event the supreme court views C&V as controversial, they'll punt the whole mess down for the "re-review" the prosecution requested rather than reaffirming the original conviction outright. Because evidence doesn't age like fine wine, there is every reason to believe a re-review would reach substantially the same conclusions as C&V.

This won't happen of course, because it's in no one's interest to waste any more time on the prosecution's moribund theories.

They wouldn't / couldn't reaffirm it anyway. There would have to be a whole new trial.

 

[Scorpion NITE]

I wanted to thank Greggy. It takes self awareness to see through the biases and errors of judgement that we all make. It takes courage to admit it.

I wanted to thank even more to Bruce.
The work you did and are still doing is amazing. Despite the attacks, insults, hunting down, stalking, you did your part of the job. Your website, forum, innumerable articles and blogposts, your book, all of it amazing work. Amanda is free. Raf is free. You did your part of the job.
I belong to the majority of the concerned, but still just observers. The much smaller group of people who were concerned enough to get involved and get things done deserve utmost respect. You have the honour to be among them. Thank you and thanks to all of those. Good job.

Yes, please add my thanks - I concur with everything above - thanks to each and everyone of you for all your efforts. A deserved result.