Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Ammonitida]

I would say questionable rather than disgraceful especially when the faulty evidence implicating Lumumba is taken into account. That could be read as blaming the black man.

Fortunately for him he had a clear alibi.

From my understanding, the prosecution found a witness that contradicted his alibi.

 

[Katody Matrass]

You are entitled to your opinion.

If the evidence or some of the evidence was faulty it should have been contested by the Defence in both trials. It remains uncontested.

Helloooo! Maybe you haven't noticed but Amanda and Raf are home Their lawyers contested the evidence and the court agreed it's rubbish

 

[RoseMontague]

You are entitled to your opinion.

If the evidence or some of the evidence was faulty it should have been contested by the Defence in both trials. It remains uncontested.

What is it? What is the evidence against Amanda and Raffaele that was not contested?

 

[Katody Matrass]

That could be read as blaming the black man.

What about Guede? That could be read as black man raped and killed, right?

 

[Matthew Best]

So now we're supposed to think Knox and Sollecito are guilty because they "look" innocent?

I think I've heard it all now.

 

[RoseMontague]

From my understanding, the prosecution found a witness that contradicted his alibi.

Yes, they did. Incredibly, Patrick did not sue this witness for helping to keep him in jail.

 

[madrigal]

Perhaps you should actually educate yourself about the case first then?

If you do that without the blinkers on, it might help you to find out the truth and realise why they were found NOT GUILTY of the murder.

Found not guilty through lack of evidence.

To quote the Judge..

"They're free for not having committed the crime," Judge Claudio Pratillo Hellmann told the daily La Stampa.

"But this is the truth in court, not the real truth. And that could be different."

He told the daily Corriere della Sera: "They could have been responsible but there is no proof. Perhaps they knew what happened that night. We do not know."

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

Sorry, you're right. Angel Face to me doesn't have a negative connotation though. Perhaps I'm reading American papers through too British an eye.

Clearly you are, since Egan isn't using that phrase himself, he's merely adding to his op-ed the meme that had been spread by non-American tabloids. I mean, seriously, how can one read this sentance
"For five months now in the Umbrian hill town of Perugia, an American exchange student called “Angel Face” by the tabloid press has been on trial for the murder of her roommate."
and not see that Egan was referring to tabloid - the key is right there where it says "tablioid press" - characterizations of her?

But we can agree that there is a disparity between the way the two nations reported the case though? I just wonder why that is.

This is where I must disagree on the reporting. The American mainstream press reported on the case, the accusation, the facts and the appeal. The British tabloid press stoked up anti-American sentiment to sell papers. I'm willing to bet that the mainstream British press focused on the facts as well, but in this case I'm on familiar with the salacious tabloid nonsense.

Which was, in essence, is there an 'us against them' feeling in the US. And conversely, is there a 'them against us' feeling in Britain and Italy? Or is that just incidental to the issue at hand?

This feeling exists only in the fantasies of consumes of British tabloids and those of us Americans who are aware of the character assasination that appeared in them over the last four years. The simple fact that a number of the most vociferous defenders of Knox's innocence or non-guilt as you prefer are from the U.K. is a testiment to their critical thinking skills.

There was no "us vs. them" reporting in the mainstream American media regarding Italy or the U.K. That meme never existed here. It is kind of ironic that when you cited Egan's op-ed, that chechking the comments showed a response from someone who clearly had drank deep of the "guilter" Flavor-ade and got their talking points from PMF.

"No, he sounds rather like a mouthpiece for the PR firm hired by Knox’s family to skew public opinion against the Italian criminal justice system."

Oh brother...

 

[Scorpion NITE]

I would say questionable rather than disgraceful especially when the faulty evidence implicating Lumumba is taken into account. That could be read as blaming the black man.

Fortunately for him he had a clear alibi.

So do you agree that GUEDE (the person we were discussing, not Lumumba) is GUILTY as sin?

Regardless, I was commenting on the article. I also suggested that the article was taking a racist stance. Do you agree? Here, I'll repeat the relevant part I was referring to:

''To many people, Guede looks like a killer, while Knox does not. That’s not to say that the Italian courts are necessarily racist, of course. But the facts are the facts: The white woman and man are free. The Black man remains in prison.''

 

[madrigal]

What is it? What is the evidence against Amanda and Raffaele that was not contested?

They only contested the bra clasp (left by the bungling police) and the knife but not the numerous dna mixes pointing to them being at the scene.

 

[CDHost]

But this kind of thing happens all the time. I just wonder what makes it so special. I'd be interested to see if there is a geographical divide on opinions of guilt.

Being British, I would definitely say that their is a stronger feeling of guilt there. And the whole affair has been compared to Americans in general. I don't subscribe to this view, but I do wonder if the opposite opinion is, in general, held by the states.

What I mean is this:

UK: American girl kills poor British girl. Money thrown at case. Tramples all over local justice.

US: Innocent angel held captive by evil foreigners. But we'll get her back.

See what I'm saying? Am I right?

I think you are exaggerating a bit, so put me down for 3/4s yes, exaggerated but fair. I have to say given how much hostility the trials of foreign nationals in local courts create whether it wouldn't be better to have an extension of some of the Vienna convention and allow countries of residence to have a much greater role in these trials.

But that's policy and I'm not sure policy discussion is allowed on JREF.

 

[Ammonitida]

So now we're supposed to think Knox and Sollecito are guilty because they "look" innocent?

I think I've heard it all now.

Women rarely kill other women. The victims of female killers are almost always men and children. Moreover, cases where a woman willingly participates in the murder and rape of another woman are practically unheard of outside of deviant male sexual fantasy. I consider Knox's gender to be "circumstantial evidence" of innocence.

 

[Ammonitida]

They only contested the bra clasp (left by the bungling police) and the knife but not the numerous dna mixes pointing to them being at the scene.

You haven't read the appeals filed by their lawyers. All of it was contested.

 

[madrigal]

So do you agree that GUEDE (the person we were discussing, not Lumumba) is GUILTY as sin?

Not necessarily, he may not have inflicted the wounds to Meredith or be responsible for her death. In that at least he may have been innocent.

 

[Grinder]

Grinder,

What errors did Ms. Dempsey make, in your opinion? Candace Dempsey has a degree in journalism. Does Barbie? Most of the names you cited have been shown to have written one or more things that is(are) not true. Search on their names in these threads if you like. Some of the titles of their articles were inflammatory, such as the one from Owen that I cited earlier today, although, perhaps the editor was responsible for the headline.

When Dempsey's reporting was challenged on this thread some time ago, she provided the sources for her story on the prisoners' trip from the Questura to the prison on 6 November. Did Barbie ever tell us who those dozen forensic scientists were, the ones that said one could tell that certain DNA samples came from blood solely on the basis of the electropherogram? The idea is nonsense, and knowing the names of these supposed experts would be helpful in assessing their past and future work. MOO.

I am no fan of Barbie which should be clear by my previous comments. And no, she didn't get a degree in journalism - she went to S. Dakota State or some such school and left before getting her degree.

I really don't think it would serve anybody to delineate exactly what i objected to her reporting but since I've followed the case since day one I developed this opinion over time. You think she's a good reporter and that's fine. I would bet that she isn't hired as a reporter in the future by any significant media outlet.

Headlines aren't written by the reporter unlike blogs, they are written by headline writers, at least that used to be how papers worked.

My main point was that the reporters on this case weren't top drawer, even though this was a huge story.

Candace also seemed to be promoting her book at every opportunity and wasn't at impressive when speaking.

Once again, I wasn't impressed by any of the regular reporters certainly not Barbie or Vogt.

 

[Scorpion NITE]

Personally, I think that anyone who would use the Bulger killers as an example to illustrate an obviously incorrect point would either have to be seriously deluded or disingenuous to say the least.

Pathetic.

Leave them out if you wish but the point remains intact.

Namely that jails are jam full of wide-eyed young, naive, inexperienced...innocents. They arent all shifty faced monsters!

YOU used them as your example - it's not for me to 'leave them out'

How does your 'point' remain intact anyway?

Source or proof?

Or are you just utilising the much vaunted 'Giobbi-like' special powers to deduce?

P.S. Please don't tell us you don't even know who Giobbi is?

 

[madrigal]

You haven't read the appeals filed by their lawyers. All of it was contested.

It wasnt contested in Court. As the blogger from the Wilmington Post pointed out.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Richard Owen of the Times

This is where I must disagree on the reporting. The American mainstream press reported on the case, the accusation, the facts and the appeal. The British tabloid press stoked up anti-American sentiment to sell papers. I'm willing to bet that the mainstream British press focused on the facts as well, but in this case I'm on familiar with the salacious tabloid nonsense.

UnrepentantSinner,

Richard Owen wrote (26 October 2008), "Witnesses on the other hand have claimed the two girls fell out over a variety of issues, from Ms Knox’s sanitary habits to thefts of cash, Ms Knox’s alleged habit of bringing “strange men” back and a dispute over a part-time job at a bar owned by Patrick Diya Lumumba, a Congolese musician whom Ms Knox initially accused of the murder." To the best of my knowledge, the only person to suggest that Ms. Knox had anything to do with the theft of Ms. Kercher's money was Mr. Guede. However, Mr. Owen was apparently quoting from Italian articles for the title of this article, which I have previously criticized. Mr. Owen had previously reported on the nonexistent bleach receipts in 2007.
ETA
Meredith found one man (Juve) strange, but he was a friend of Ms. Knox, not an intimate partner.

 

[Ammonitida]

Found not guilty through lack of evidence.

To quote the Judge..

"They're free for not having committed the crime," Judge Claudio Pratillo Hellmann told the daily La Stampa.

"But this is the truth in court, not the real truth. And that could be different."

He told the daily Corriere della Sera: "They could have been responsible but there is no proof. Perhaps they knew what happened that night. We do not know."

Hellmann stated, "Nel nostro caso non abbiamo richiamato il secondo comma dell'articolo 530 del Codice".

The translation of this indicates that he invoked 530.1. That's full exoneration.

 

[madrigal]

YOU used them as your example - it's not for me to 'leave them out'

How does your 'point' remain intact anyway?

Source or proof?

Or are you just utilising the much vaunted 'Giobbi-like' special powers to deduce?

P.S. Please don't tell us you don't even know who Giobbi is?

jails are jam full of wide-eyed young, naive, inexperienced...innocents. They arent all shifty faced monsters!


That is my opinion.

I am I hope entitled to one here.