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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Well lets assume you are right there is a dirty campaign against Mignini.

  • He filed criminal defamation charges agains a newspaper, the West Seattle Herald for reporting that Mignini is seen by many locals as inadequate and mentally unstable
  • He convicted (in absentia) Joe Cottonwood a California carpenter for calling Mignini a bully, its hard to do more then point out the irony of a DA filing criminal charges against someone for calling them a bully
  • Slander charges against Amanda Knox's parents for quoting her sworn testimony (this BTW was the charge that got me off the fence regarding Amanda Knox)

How can those actions be explained in a positive light? Those are the provable things.

I subscribe entirely with these actions. I think he was right. I would probably have sued more people. But probably me and you don't abide exactly the same set of rules and values.

And that's without getting into all the areas like broken computers where I think he's engaging in evidence tampering or the witnesses statements where I think he engaged in witness tampering.

You think, on what basis? What elements, what knowledge of details and context, what legal competence, what corroboration and what rationale?
 
Definitely I think not. And look at the headline chosen by Il Corriere "Il giudice di Perugia: «Assolti, ma forse sono colpevoli»".
Also note, he would have done the same things Comodi and Mignini did: «dispiace che abbiano avvertito questa sentenza come una sconfitta. Al loro posto, con gli elementi che avevano, avrei fatto lo stesso».


Hellmann: "Nel nostro caso non abbiamo richiamato il secondo comma dell'articolo 530 del Codice"
 
My only uncertainty in this case was why did Amanda accuse her boss, a black man, when Guede was a black man. Did she stumble on the crime while or shortly after it happened? I always wondered this.

Then I read where negroid hairs were found at the crime scene.

So enen this last subtle doubt/question has been explained. The police were looking for a black man. The police suggested it was a black man. The police wrote the first 'confession', did they not?

There was cell phone traffic between Amanda and Patrick. Patrick had changed sims the day of the 2nd (poor unlucky timing). There was also a Meredith / Patrick connection. The police are the ones who suggested Patrick. Detective Napoleni agrees she was the one who brought Patrick up. The issue is that a literal translation of "see you later" in Italian implies a fixed appointment not a general friendly way to end a conversation.

Color is such a big issue in the USA we tend to focus on it "black man". But in this case it was really specific to Patrick as a suspect.
 
Definitely I think not.

Then how would you translate this:
"una sentenza di condanna non supportata da prove non avrebbe fatto giustizia"
?

And look at the headline chosen by Il Corriere "Il giudice di Perugia: «Assolti, ma forse sono colpevoli»".
Corriere disappoints with this sensationalistic and misrepresenting title, right. Thankfully we don't have to bother with this nonsense having direct quotes from the judge who clarified that it's not a case of "secondo comma" but a "formula piena" - the fullest possible acquittal.
 
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By the way, Machiavelli, how are you doing on that cite for the section of the criminal code (or any other legislation) which indicates that the verdict from a completed trial can be used as probative evidence in a different trial of a different defendant(s)?

Since you made explicit reference to the existence of such a written codification or law, it shouldn't be very hard for you to proved proof. And you don't ever write things that aren't true or accurate, do you? So can we see the written proof, old chap?
 
The spontaneous statement was released before a magistrate, not cops. There was also an interpreter. And everything was legal.
The hand written note contains two further false accusations, demonstrates malice and manipulative deception, and even admits to having released the statement herself. Moreover her dec 18. interrogation again admits to having told false accusation herself; she was unable to answer and decided not to speak on the topic.
Knox is a convict for calunnia, for a reason.

I'm wondering if perhaps there are language/translation issues in your perspective. Nowhere in the handwritten note of Nov 6 does Knox falsely accuse anyone or demonstrate "malice and manipulative deception".

If you believe she accuses Lumumba in that letter, then I'm afraid you simply don't understand english well enough.

Don't take that as an insult, I'm a native english speaker and live in Sweden. Most Swedes speak english many orders of magnitude better than most Italians, and I encounter regular misunderstandings. Indeed the fact Swede's speak English so well makes misunderstandings more likely, as both sides tend to assume they understand everything.
 
Oh, I see. So the 1:45 and 5:45 statements were obtained illegally, thus can't be used against her, and therefore you think that the calunnia conviction must be based on one or more of the following:

1. The spontaneous statement released before a magistrate,

2. The hand written note, or

3. The December 18 interrogation.

I had always thought that the prosecution focused on the 1:45 and 5:45 statements, since those are the ones that "caused" them to arrest Lumumba. I will have to consider these other statements you mention.

I'm sorry, Machiavelli, but you are wrong about this, at least according to Massei. Massei cites only the November 6 "denunciations" as the basis for his calunnia conviction. These would be the 1:45 and 5:45 statements that I think we agree were obtained illegally in violation of Knox's right to counsel, and which we agree therefore cannot be used as the basis for a calunnia charge against her. Perhaps Hellmann will depart from Massei and make use of the other statements you mentioned?
 
I'm going to be very interested to see how the Motivations turns out on the issue of calunnia. Knox's right to counsel clearly attached (at least) as soon as she made oral statements that the police deemed incriminating. Did they stop and allow her counsel? No. They typed a statement and persuaded her to sign it. Then they interrogated her some more. Then they typed another statement and persuaded her to sign it again. The statements are clearly obtained in violation of her right to counsel.

I know, but they got around that by lying about it. That's what makes this case so difficult, in Perugia at least the cops can lie about anything to the press or in court without censure.

How is it possible to bring criminal charges (calunnia) against a person on the basis of an illegally-obtained statement. This cannot be possible.

Lie about it. :p

Actually it may be that she didn't become a formal suspect until she signed that statement. I'm trying to remember how this worked out. I think the Supreme Court threw both statements out for the murder charge but allowed the first statement to be used against Patrick (who was then still theoretically a suspect) and also allowed the 'gift' note as it was entirely voluntary.

I think that the calunnia charges therefore will have to be based on the gift note, which I think the Supreme Court has already ruled to be a spontaneous statement. But, it's difficult to see the calunnia in the gift note. Moreover, the gift note is the fruit of an illegal interrogation to the extent it is read to make any allegation against Patrick. Finally, had not Patrick already been arrested by the time she wrote the gift note? If so, it was not the cause of his arrest.

They cherry picked the 'stand by my statements' completely ignoring the qualifier 'could' in that very sentence and the other half-dozen odes to confusion and uncertainty in the body of the note. As for the latter, it doesn't matter. Theoretically I could have a vast multitude of calunnia charges filed on me if an Italian prosecutor were to read these threads. That's how they filed those charges on Steve Shay, Amanda's parents, Frank Sfarzo and Joe Cottonwood. If you say anything critical about a prosecutor or police in Italy they can file charges on you no matter where you said it or what the consequences were.


I just think that there are so many defenses to this calunnia charge, and now that everyone is focussed on it, it is going to be very difficult and embarrassing for the Italian Supreme Court to ratify the conduct of the police by affirming the calunnia charge.

I hope so! :)
 
I subscribe entirely with these actions. I think he was right. I would probably have sued more people. But probably me and you don't abide exactly the same set of rules and values.

I'm hard pressed to think of any set of values under which that is permissible. The inquisition at its worst never considered quoting sworn statements as sworn statements to be criminal. People like Stalin, were of that opinion it should be but those are the only ones I can think of.

You think, on what basis? What elements, what knowledge of details and context, what legal competence, what corroboration and what rationale?

The broken computers. I've been in the business a few decades, that sort of thing doesn't happen. I have yet to hear even a guilter with IT experience defend the police statement about the computers. As far as I know, there is no knowledgeable person that buys their story. 0 people so far.

As for witness tampering, I'll go back to those lawsuits. The purpose behind those lawsuits. You didn't see Mignini blindly suing anyone who accused Amanda of crimes she didn't commit, they were all directed at the defense.
 
Actually it may be that she didn't become a formal suspect until she signed that statement. I'm trying to remember how this worked out. I think the Supreme Court threw both statements out for the murder charge but allowed the first statement to be used against Patrick (who was then still theoretically a suspect) and also allowed the 'gift' note as it was entirely voluntary.

I'm a little fuzzy on it, too. But, I thought that 1:45 and 5:45 were both thrown out against Knox because there were no recordings of the interrogation. I'm not sure what could be used against Patrick, but it doesn't follow that an illegally-ellicited statement that can be used against Patrick can also be used against Knox in a calunnia proceeding.

I agree that the cops lied to try to say that she wasn't a suspect. BUT, she HAD TO have become a suspect at the point where she said the things that the cops deemed so incriminating that they decided to write them down. So, she was a suspect before she she signed the 1:45 note. As a suspect, she should have had counsel, and since she didn't, the 1:45 and 5:45 documents were obtained illegally.

Machiavelli seems to agree that illegally-obtained documents can't be used to incriminate Knox.
 
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The Inexorable Massei Ruling

I knew TJMK would be unable to accept Hellman's ruling, but did not think they would be so blatant and open about the inexorable nature of the Massei Report::mad: That there is a quasi-political undertone to the piece is to me stunning, I thought there would be a period of silence, but I suppose that was as stupid as it was wishful:

It seems Judge Hellman has begun sweating.

Maybe Judge Hellman already sees as much of the Italian public and commentators do that he’ll have a REALLY tough time answering all the open questions in his December sentencing report as he is required to.

Constitutional requirement of Ministry of Justice never met?
[...]

A slam dunk in effect. Evidence overkill.[...]

But few of the busy people in the US and UK media have read the Massei Report and no one in the media to our knowledge has extensively analyzed or quoted from it. None of the books out so far go into the Massei Report in depth.

WHY did the Italian Ministry of Justice fail to fully distribute the Massei Report, and in particular not post it on their website? And is the Supreme Court of Cassation aware of this huge shortfall in its distribution?

This is such a serious mistake that our Italian lawyers believe that the Supreme Court or even the President of the Republic of Italy if he is petitioned could throw out the entire Hellman proceedings, verdict and sentence.

The hundreds and hundreds of open questions

Arising from the Massei Report are literally hundreds of questions for the released defendants and their teams. They have been around since early 2010. The defense teams and PR campaign have never ever tried to answer these questions, or for that matter to produce a convincing alternative scenario that hangs together implicating Guede but not Knox or Sollecito.

Here are four lists of the many, many outstanding questions. [. . .]

And now the Daily Beast has reposted its own list of ten questions, none of which it reckons have yet been answered.
Here from the Daily Beast are those ten questions with the Beast’s annotations showing how they are STILL unanswered:


Judge Hellman may be able to answer all of these unanswered questions AS HE MUST under Italian law in his sentencing report. He cannot simply address points defense raised about small parts of it. He must be able to explain the totality of the evidence or his report risks being thrown out by Cassation and a retrial at the first appeal level ordered.

Possibly Judge Hellman might be able to achieve this. But why do we seriously doubt it?
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php
 
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One intuition surrounding false confessions that is misleading, for example, is when there is 'added detail', that this is a hallmark of truth.
In fact, 'confabulation' is a well-established psychological phenomenon, and is very often not the result of a conscious deception.

That's because it's the police running the show and they're the ones insisting on the 'detail.' It sure is funny watching that guy who was in Brazil go through step-by-step something that could never have occurred!

However when there's (almost) no detail that means there's something very strange about it from the aspect of the police unless there are extenuating circumstances.
 
I saw that , disturbing.
But hardly surprising, given the nature of her treatment at the hands of prosecution and press. What is more disconcerting to me is something I just read and posted here via TJMK: That Massei's report is deemed inexorable to them. To me, just stunning in its stubbornness and quasi-political tone.:eek:
 
Did Pilot aka Stint showed up? I wonder what he is up to. Maybe he's, along with his pals over at .org/ .net/ TJMK, trying to invent a story how Hellmann was corrupted or threatened. Beacuse that's whey they are now saying.

He wasn't corrupted or threatened, he wasn't scared, he wasn't under media pressure. He looked at the evidence and rendered a verdict. Not guilty.

Is it really that hard to get?

No motive, no murder weapon, no witnesses, no DNA/footprints/shoeprints/fingerprints/hair/saliva in the murder room of both Knox and Sollecito, no confirmed connections between Sollecito and Guede. This is all enough to create a reasonable doubt, at the very least.
 
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What proof is there that Amanda lied?

Starting from the conviction for calunnia going down. There is enough to fill several pages to show and describe the incredible number of proven lies.

When was it established that Raffaele did not have blood on his hands that night from the fish?

Are you normal Kaosium? Even if Raffaele had fish blood on his hands, would a normal person write about this in a paper that she gives to the police to provide them evidence on a murder investigation? The false accusation consists in the act of writing it down into a communication note meant to be an element in a murder investigation. Tht was written in an doubtful "open" form, so designed to be read as possible human blood, casting suspicion on Raffaele. The lie consists in the doubt and in the suspicion-creating function of it.

I've seen others, notably Pilot and Djfred, imply this is some sort of damning admission too and never understood what they meant. How are you interpreting that to the detriment of Amanda?

I will never trust a person who says thinks about "the best truth". This is one more self-discrediting statement among the many.

What makes you think she's lying about being very clean? Has it ever been established that Amanda is not generally a clean person?

Again, it seems you are going around old and tiresome tricks, I find this reasoning dishonest.
Amanda was accused by Meredith of not being clean in their common envionment. Meredith's opinion and her complaints were reported by her friends and the roommates, who are all credible witnesses.
What Meredith complained about is the first thing that matters, rather than how clean Knox actually was.
It was reported that Meredith complained with her of having left blood stained tampons in their common bathroom, and for having left the toliet dirty (as well as for not respecting the house cleaning shifts, and for leaving objects in their common bathroom which Meredith disliked, and other reasons).
Moreover Knox herself admitted of having left the toiled dirty with feces; and also blood drop of Amanda was actually found in the bathroom and the defence had long claimed that it was mentrual blood.
Aka: the lie consists in throwing back on Meredith the same blaming which, in fact, was the accusation Meredith made against her.

Was that an insinuation or was it just Amanda wondering about where that blood came from if she knew it wasn't her? Would leaving a little blood in the bathroom when there's suggestions that someone might have left quickly suggest that person was normally not very clean,

Time wasting questions: we know for certain Amanda was actually perceived by Meredith as being not very clean.
Amanda new Meredith had this opinion about her.
Amanda also already knew whether she herself had bleeded or not; because everybody knows if they happened to have a blood loss the day before.

and if Amanda said it that way wouldn't it imply to you that she wasn't saying there was anything unclean about leaving blood in the bathroom but that with blood in the bathroom and the door open that meant someone might have gotten hurt and left the cottage quickly?

This adds further blame on Amanda.
She manages however to imply that the blood is probably menstrual blood left by Meredith. She says "we are very clean", then sets an exception "but probably Meredith had menstrual issues"; aka: we are both clean, but I am the cleanest, probably the other one made the mess. This is a way to say the other is the dirty one, which is exactly what Meredith had tiold her.
She takes a revenge, retributes Merediths by calling her dirty, just the way Meredith had called her dirty before.
 
Just as an aside: publishing private emails on an internet forum without the permission of the email's author is a civil offence. The writer of an email retains the copyright to it, and the writer has to therefore give permission for any public reproduction of it. Anyone publishing private emails in this way is liable to be sued for a breach of copyright. In the US (including Seattle), the statutory limit for such damages is $150,000, plus all costs. I trust that such things would never happen on JREF. I wonder if they happen on any other forums? Just sayin.....
 
Thank you. And I found this:

Transcript of Amanda Knox's handwritten statement to police on the evening of November 6, the day she was arrested.

The part about "flashbacks" and not knowing for sure if she was at the house that night is best. Probably most other western nations would consider Knox to be crazy or a liar. Apparently America does not.

The Perugian police could have used your help that night. It does not speak well of them that they arrested an innocent man on the word of someone so obviously crazy or a liar.
 
I'm hard pressed to think of any set of values under which that is permissible. The inquisition at its worst never considered quoting sworn statements as sworn statements to be criminal. People like Stalin, were of that opinion it should be but those are the only ones I can think of.

I will not anyone free of writing "many people in my town thinks he is mentally unstable". I think who one writes this, has to prove it.
If you se this as an equivalent of Stalin or Inquisition, in my opinion you are making a very inappropriate link.

The broken computers. I've been in the business a few decades, that sort of thing doesn't happen. I have yet to hear even a guilter with IT experience defend the police statement about the computers. As far as I know, there is no knowledgeable person that buys their story. 0 people so far.

This is very stupid. The people who think about malice or conspiracy on these grounds, should also think at the rationale behind it. Four hard drives control boards were damaged; but then the data was recovered from three. The fourth drive is unrelated to defensive claims, except for the claim of happy photos together which is something totally irrelevant. if this was willfull and planned, what was the purpose of this damage (followed by repair)? Where is the logic?


As for witness tampering, I'll go back to those lawsuits. The purpose behind those lawsuits. You didn't see Mignini blindly suing anyone who accused Amanda of crimes she didn't commit, they were all directed at the defense.

No, I see Mignini sueing criminals. Just like I believe Bruce Fisher is a criminal and I would sue him if I were Migninior Stefanoni or Guede.
What does it mean to sue people for "accusing Amanda for crimes she didn't commit?". Who accused her? She was indicted (actually she is indicted, and convicted). That's not Mignini's task to sue possible Amanda's accusers. His duty is to sue the accusers of himself.
 
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