• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

Status
Not open for further replies.
Verklagekasper said:
Thank you. And I found this:

Transcript of Amanda Knox's handwritten statement to police on the evening of November 6, the day she was arrested.

The part about "flashbacks" and not knowing for sure if she was at the house that night is best. Probably most other western nations would consider Knox to be crazy. Apparently America does not.
Click to expand...

Well, actually, most other western nations would consider this document to be the fruit of an illegal interrogation.

Or, perhaps you are right and she was crazed when she wrote the note. What does that tell us about what the police did to her?
 
Last edited:
Diocletus said:
ETA: They also exclude confessions derived from interrogations in which the accused's right to counsel was violated.

Probably most other western nations provide similar protections. Apparently Italy does not.
Click to expand...

Actually Italy does, in fact Italy probably has more stringent rules on police interrogations than most places. The problem is they just ignore them or go around them with the trick of pretending they're interviewing 'witnesses' and either don't tape them or destroy the tapes if they're...unpalatable. There's just not enough oversight of police, and the judiciary is so overwhelmed by its duties towards criminals it can't really provide the necessary oversight of the police.

That's what it looks like to me at least. They've the rules on the books but the police just go around them and the prosecutors and judges just can't afford to look too closely at their only crutch.
 
I think that one of the sadder statistics that will emerge from this whole affair is that when I googled thRealBob I came up with zero Google hits, so I guess that I'm the real forgotten person in all of this.

Just wait until I learn how to really type.

Apart from that something you may find really interesting is that I have posted previously that there are people who post here (and there are several) who probably know more about the case than the jurors, BUT.....

I'm sure that Hellman reads this thread.

This 'protecting the Prosecutor who had enough to chase a conviction speech' he just gave, came just when a couple of us were saying it's time to sue, sue, sue annd sue

I'll bet you anything Hellman was reading us all along..............
 
CDHost said:
Normal people lie all the time under high degree of pressure. To pick an American analogy we got lots of Iraqi detainees to lie about their ties to Al-Qaeda when there were no such ties. And those were men, often twice Amanda Knox's age, many of whom had been on the other end of an interrogation many times.
Click to expand...

I hope Maresca pursues the Calunnia trial, because this will bring greater light into what happened in the questura/interrogation.

When there are 10 or more people involved, its almost impossible for them all to maintain a perfect lie. So if all those present at the interrogation are truly questioned a new version will emerge.

We dont know the full details, Massei had Migninni do an investigation...what a joke that was. An unbiased investigation would be interesting.

I see a news article mentions the interrogation, from Curt Knox.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/knox-hit-during-interrogation-claims-father-20111007-1ldli.html
 
Verklagekasper said:
Thank you. And I found this:

Transcript of Amanda Knox's handwritten statement to police on the evening of November 6, the day she was arrested.

The part about "flashbacks" and not knowing for sure if she was at the house that night is best. Probably most other western nations would consider Knox to be crazy or a liar. Apparently America does not.
Click to expand...

Don't you find it interesting that Amanda had no history of mental illness before she was arrested and that even after her imprisonment the Italian authorities couldn't get anyone to diagnose her with any disorders?
 
Neither

Verklagekasper said:
Thank you. And I found this:

Transcript of Amanda Knox's handwritten statement to police on the evening of November 6, the day she was arrested.

The part about "flashbacks" and not knowing for sure if she was at the house that night is best. Probably most other western nations would consider Knox to be crazy or a liar. Apparently America does not.
Click to expand...
"In regards to this 'confession' that I made last night, I want to make clear that I'm very doubtful of the verity of my statements because they were made under the pressures of stress, shock and extreme exhaustion." I don't think she is either crazy or a liar; I think she was subjected to a coercive interrogation on top of being exhausted that day, according to the accounts of others.
 
theRealBob said:
I think that one of the sadder statistics that will emerge from this whole affair is that when I googled thRealBob I came up with zero Google hits, so I guess that I'm the real forgotten person in all of this.
Click to expand...


Maybe because you misspelled it?

:)

Just wait until I learn how to really type.
Click to expand...


:p


If it's any consolation, I got close to 6,000 hits when I tried it, but most of you seem to be in Canada or California, instead of Sydney.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.
 
Kaosium said:
Don't you find it interesting that Amanda had no history of mental illness before she was arrested and that even after her imprisonment the Italian authorities couldn't get anyone to diagnose her with any disorders?
Click to expand...
I find that even very interesting. Because, if mental illness can be ruled out as a cause for that crazy note of hers, it means her "flashbacks" and oh so big confusion about not knowing where she's been and what she's done was nothing but an act.
 
Verklagekasper said:
True. Normal people also don't falsely accuse their former employers of killing somebody. Oops, seems Knox isn't all that normal...
Click to expand...

Normal people can and often are tricked into telling falsehoods in custodial settings. Its the reason why the right to an attorney is considered a "human right" under Article 6 of the ECHR.

Real life is not what you see on TV crime shows. They are fictions designed to entertain you.

Please educate yourself then come back to us with this knowledge. Here is a great place to start: Google "Economist False Confession".

As usual with The Economist there are links to the relevant studies. Oh by the way its a British magazine so you can't fall back your obfuscation that only American's think this.
 
Last edited:
Verklagekasper said:
Wow, really? You mean that the police actually interrogated her instead of doing small talk while she felt relaxed and happy? I'm in shock.
Click to expand...


And shocked you should be. Experienced interrogators will tell you that they get their best results when the subject is kept relaxed and happy. Of course, you won't see such techniques on tv because it doesn't make for good drama.
 
Last edited:
Verklagekasper said:
I find that even very interesting. Because, if mental illness can be ruled out as a cause for that crazy note of hers, it means her "flashbacks" and oh so big confusion about not knowing where she's been and what she's done was nothing but an act.
Click to expand...

So there's only two possibilities in your mind? What if that's a false dichotomy?

You must think it a damn good thing she didn't take that job at the Bundestag she was offered and decided to work in Italy instead.
 
Verklagekasper said:
I'm sorry that Ms. Knox wasn't offered a comfy chair during her interrogation and that she was interrogated while she was "confused and frightened".
Btw I suggest that you instantly set all your convicted criminals free. After all, they all were interrogated while not being all that happy and confident either. Oh, I forgot that your new interrogation standards only apply to Americans in foreign countries, my bad.
Click to expand...

Verklagekasper,
What aspects of Dr Saul Kassin's methodology in his work on false confessions do you think are problematic?
If there are no methodological errors that you can see, what aspects of Amanda's statements / behaviour do you think are incompatible with the phenomenon as explicated by Dr Kassin?
 
Swimfish said:
Normal people can and often are tricked into telling falsehoods in custodial settings. Its the reason why the right to an attorney is considered a "human right" under Article 6 of the ECHR.

Real life is not what you see on TV crime shows. They are fictions designed to entertain you.

Please educate yourself then come back to us with this knowledge. Here is a great place to start: Google "Economist False Confession".

As usual with The Economist there are links to the relevant studies.
Click to expand...
In real life Amanda Knox is a convicted criminal who was sentenced to three years in jail for defamation.
 
I ask, because we can't just dismiss scientific results without a good reason, and intuition is not a good reason. I've done some work on how intuitions about probablity are often quite far from the truth, (e.g. the birthday paradox) and generally human intuition and pre-philosophical (or pre-scientific) reasoning can be wildly inaccurate.
 
Kaosium said:
Actually Italy does, in fact Italy probably has more stringent rules on police interrogations than most places. The problem is they just ignore them or go around them with the trick of pretending they're interviewing 'witnesses' and either don't tape them or destroy the tapes if they're...unpalatable. There's just not enough oversight of police, and the judiciary is so overwhelmed by its duties towards criminals it can't really provide the necessary oversight of the police.

That's what it looks like to me at least. They've the rules on the books but the police just go around them and the prosecutors and judges just can't afford to look too closely at their only crutch.
Click to expand...

I'm going to be very interested to see how the Motivations turns out on the issue of calunnia. Knox's right to counsel clearly attached (at least) as soon as she made oral statements that the police deemed incriminating. Did they stop and allow her counsel? No. They typed a statement and persuaded her to sign it. Then they interrogated her some more. Then they typed another statement and persuaded her to sign it again. The statements are clearly obtained in violation of her right to counsel.

How is it possible to bring criminal charges (calunnia) against a person on the basis of an illegally-obtained statement. This cannot be possible.

I think that the calunnia charges therefore will have to be based on the gift note, which I think the Supreme Court has already ruled to be a spontaneous statement. But, it's difficult to see the calunnia in the gift note. Moreover, the gift note is the fruit of an illegal interrogation to the extent it is read to make any allegation against Patrick. Finally, had not Patrick already been arrested by the time she wrote the gift note? If so, it was not the cause of his arrest.

I just think that there are so many defenses to this calunnia charge, and now that everyone is focussed on it, it is going to be very difficult and embarrassing for the Italian Supreme Court to ratify the conduct of the police by affirming the calunnia charge.
 
Verklagekasper said:
In real life Amanda Knox is a convicted criminal who was sentenced to three years in jail for defamation.
Click to expand...



Well, that's certainly the last straw that the Guilters seem to be continuing to cling to.

If it is overturned (and there is a good possibility of that) is that then 'game over' for the Guilters? :yikes:
 
One intuition surrounding false confessions that is misleading, for example, is when there is 'added detail', that this is a hallmark of truth.
In fact, 'confabulation' is a well-established psychological phenomenon, and is very often not the result of a conscious deception.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom