What is the current Republican position on this?

Wait a minute. Did you not take a position that the bean counters at some insurance company should have a say on what medical procedures get done? If so, you really stepped on your junk here.
It's easier to conduct a sensible discussion if participamts avoid vulgarity and personal attacks, doncha think?
The immediate issue was Cat's and Lefty's imputation of "ignorance", but a change is okay.
Dunno 'bout "should". Dunno that I've used the word in this discussion except in quotes from others. Inevitably, in any system and for every person who seeks treatment, somebody or some body decides what treatment to apply. Advocates for socialized medical care and free marketeers disagree over whom to trust with these decisions. Arguments for aggregation of resources and authority typically depend on "economies of scale" and "free rider" considerations. Above the level of individual hospitals, I do not see economies of scale great enough to justify State-operated health care. The "public goods" argument for State provision of charity (e.g., medical care) contains (inter alia) this flaw: oversight of corporate functions is a public good and the State is a corporation. Therefore, oversight of State functions is a public good which the State itself cannot provide. State assumption of responsibility for the provision of public goods transforms the "free rider" problem at the root of public goods analysis but does not solve it.
 
The "public goods" argument for State provision of charity (e.g., medical care) contains (inter alia) this flaw: oversight of corporate functions is a public good and the State is a corporation. Therefore, oversight of State functions is a public good which the State itself cannot provide. State assumption of responsibility for the provision of public goods transforms the "free rider" problem at the root of public goods analysis but does not solve it.

The state is a corporation? What?
 
The "public goods" argument for State provision of charity (e.g., medical care) contains (inter alia) this flaw: oversight of corporate functions is a public good and the State is a corporation. Therefore, oversight of State functions is a public good which the State itself cannot provide. State assumption of responsibility for the provision of public goods transforms the "free rider" problem at the root of public goods analysis but does not solve it.
that sorta says it all....sad, very sad....
that sorta says it all....sad, very sad....
Very sad. Governments are human organizations. The government of a locality is the largest deaaler in interpersonal violence in that locality (definition, after Weber). In the US, governments can own property, make contracts, and be sued in court. The officer who represents the City and County of Honolulu in court is called the "Corporation Counsel". Legally, governments are corporations. Further, my point does not depend on the name one applies to a class of organizations but to the "agency problem", the problem of making organizations accountable, and the risk to reward ratio that individuals face when they try to keep an organization straight (the "free rider" problem I mentioned, above).
 
As an employee, yes, several times.What do you mean by this? I have heard the term "principle/agent problem". That "service upon one is service upon both" puzzles me.

That's because it's nonsense.

Never mind. I was just checking something. Evidently you are not a Freeman on the Land.
 
Very sad. Governments are human organizations. The government of a locality is the largest deaaler in interpersonal violence in that locality (definition, after Weber). In the US, governments can own property, make contracts, and be sued in court. The officer who represents the City and County of Honolulu in court is called the "Corporation Counsel". Legally, governments are corporations. Further, my point does not depend on the name one applies to a class of organizations but to the "agency problem", the problem of making organizations accountable, and the risk to reward ratio that individuals face when they try to keep an organization straight (the "free rider" problem I mentioned, above).

That's just a big pile of word salad. Firstly, the definition of government is not "the biggest dealer in interpersonal violence", even if government sometimes is. Governments and corporations are also completely different things. For a start, one gets its mandate from votes, and the other from shareholders. The "free rider" problem is not the same as the risk to reward ratio of keeping an organisation straight, either. You could try making your points more clearly.
 
It is hilarious when people invent stuff about Canadian health care that isn't even close to the truth, and then try to fob it off on the rest of us as though it were the unvarnished, well-researched truth.

Hilarious, and disgusting at the same time.
 
That's just a big pile of word salad. Firstly, the definition of government is not "the biggest dealer in interpersonal violence", even if government sometimes is.
What's your definition of "government", then? Don't get dreamy. Remember, it has to apply to North Korea and Iran as well as to Switzerland and Sweden.

Max Weber's definition people often paraphrase as "the monopoy on legitimate use of force". Since monopolies are seldom absolute, making that part of the definition technicaly incorrect, and since the State itself gets to determine what is legitimate, making that part of the definition tautological, and since lots of "force" has no human origin (earthquakes, hurricanes, etc.), I prefer my definttion. The government of a locality is the largest dealer in interpersonal violence in that locality.
Governments and corporations are also completely different things. For a start, one gets its mandate from votes, and the other from shareholders.
Legally, governments are corporations. Churches are corporations. Labor unions are corporations. Look it up.
The "free rider" problem is not the same as the risk to reward ratio of keeping an organisation straight, either. You could try making your points more clearly.
Corporate oversight is a public good. Public goods analysis proceds from the assumption of positive externalities generated by some activity (such as giving to charity or collecting roadside trash). The "free rider" consideration enters because everybody benefits from the contributions of one. Corporate oversight creates positive externalities. All shareholders benefi if one shareholder exposes executive malfeasance.

Do I really need to pave and illuminate every baby step in this argument?
 
It is hilarious when people invent stuff about Canadian health care that isn't even close to the truth, and then try to fob it off on the rest of us as though it were the unvarnished, well-researched truth.

Hilarious, and disgusting at the same time.
I agree.

...in canada and the u,k,, people are not denied service because of age or infirmity.
That turned out to be false, in many ways.

...here in Alberta, each doctor's office is a privately owned company. The doc treats the patient whoever (however) he deems necessary. The bill is sent to the government, who then pays. I don't have to deal with the very real situation of having care denied because it will eat into corporate profits.
...What if the doctor decides to treat hypochondria with hookers and single malt scotch?
...Yes, I was simplifying, in the hopes that you might understand.
 
Huh? I showed where defenders misrepresented the Canadian and British systems. I guess some people have a problem with that.

You didn't show any such thing. You've also repeatedly ignored evidence posted that disagrees with your position. I've posted numerous links and you IGNORE THEM. Your arguments don't have a leg to stand on.
 
You didn't show any such thing. You've also repeatedly ignored evidence posted that disagrees with your position. I've posted numerous links and you IGNORE THEM. Your arguments don't have a leg to stand on.
I saw that Kaiser study of aggregate costs. Means nothing. Here's a bit from the material below: "Canadian governments simply reduce their expenses by limiting the service."

Rusty backed off his "...here in Alberta, each doctor's office is a privately owned company. The doc treats the patient whoever (however) he deems necessary. The bill is sent to the government, who then pays."

Druid is bobbing and weaving:...

...in canada and the u,k,, people are not denied service because of age or infirmity...
Was false. Remember this?
NICE's rationing decisions start with a basic premise: The government should spend its limited resources on treatments that do the most good for the money. NICE calculates cost-effectiveness with a widely used measure called a quality-adjusted life year (QALY).

In essence, NICE asks these questions: How much does a drug or procedure cost? How much does the treatment extend the average patient's life? And what is the quality of that life gained?

The calculations are complicated, but imagine that a cancer treatment costs $100,000 and that it extends the life of the average patient by four years. That means the cost of the treatment per year gained is $25,000.

Now imagine that for part of those four years the patient will be in pain and bedridden. NICE might figure the quality of that life at 50 percent of perfect health. Under NICE's formula, that would make the drug half as cost-effective. In other words, the result would be $50,000 per quality-adjusted year gained.

NICE has set a maximum that it will spend on a treatment: about $47,000 per quality-adjusted year gained.
So, yes. The British government will refuse to pay for care if remote authorities calculate that the quality of life of a patient they have never seen is below their statistical expectations.
Rationing : “Everything is Free but Nothing is Readily Available” (Frogue et al, 2001) Like other nations experiencing limitless demand, an ageing population and the costly advance of medical technology, Canada has faced pressure to control health expenditure. It has done so through explicit rationing.

Set up in 1989, the Canadian Co-ordinating Office for Health Technology Assessment is the Canadian predecessor to our NICE, charged with exactly the same brief and, it seems, carrying out its function in the same way. For example, in the case of new cancer treatment, the latest pharmaceuticals (such as visudyne for macular degeneration), and high-tech diagnostic tests, Canadian governments simply reduce their expenses by limiting the service. Such a method of rationing is only possible in a single-payer monopoly. Medicare also shares other defining characteristics of monopolies: limited information, little transparency and poor accountability.

Canada has faced increased pressure to reform hospital structures to accommodate the changing pattern of care from an institutional to a community-based model. Reforms have attempted to limit growth and manage the system more effectively. Provinces have proven their ability to manage cost control by the use of their monopsonistic power associated with the single payer structure (WHO, 1996). Hospitals are paid through the imposition of annual global budgets by provincial governments. The downside of this cost controlling efficiency is evident by the problem of waiting lists and dilapidated technology and equipment.
...and
So why does Canada perform relatively well? Studies have shown that a number of non-health system related factors affect health outcomes. Perhaps the high level of expenditure is important. Canada also benefits from lower levels of income inequality than the US and UK. Tobacco consumption is low in comparison to OECD member countries.
Differences in aggregate longevity do not conclusively indicate better medical care, as the above makes clear. If a bus full of physicians and surgeons goes over a cliff, the sudden change in mortality does not mean a decline in care. Imagine that the residents of Hiroshima commuted to another city for treatment before 6-Aug.-1945 (so facilities and medical personnel survived). The sudden change in longevity would have nothing to do with care. Did the quality of care decline steeply in New York City on 2001-09-11?
 
What's your definition of "government", then? Don't get dreamy. Remember, it has to apply to North Korea and Iran as well as to Switzerland and Sweden. Max Weber's definition people often paraphrase as "the monopoy on legitimate use of force". Since monopolies are seldom absolute, making that part of the definition technicaly incorrect, and since the State itself gets to determine what is legitimate, making that part of the definition tautological, and since lots of "force" has no human origin (earthquakes, hurricanes, etc.), I prefer my definttion. The government of a locality is the largest dealer in interpersonal violence in that locality.

I agree with the dictionary definition: "the political direction and control exercised over the actions of the members, citizens, or inhabitants of communities, societies, and states; direction of the affairs of a state, community, etc.; political administration: Government is necessary to the existence of civilized society".

The above definition applies both to iran and north korea and to sweden and switzerland, and adds a hell of alot more detail than "the biggest dealer in interpersonal violence". What you gave was a description of one aspect of government, while leaving out the vital functions they perform, and I don't think i'm stretching very far to say that you did so in order to spin government as purely an instrument of violence because doing so advances your political agenda.

Legally, governments are corporations. Churches are corporations. Labor unions are corporations. Look it up.

So if we stretch "corporation" to cover everything, governments are legally corporations. I imagine we can find a definition that says turtles are legally corporations, but that doesn't make them the same thing.

Corporate oversight is a public good. Public goods analysis proceds from the assumption of positive externalities generated by some activity (such as giving to charity or collecting roadside trash). The "free rider" consideration enters because everybody benefits from the contributions of one. Corporate oversight creates positive externalities. All shareholders benefi if one shareholder exposes executive malfeasance.

Do I really need to pave and illuminate every baby step in this argument?

No, you don't need to "illuminate every baby step in this argument". You just need to start explaining what your actual point is, rather than stringing together a bunch of words and expecting other people to untangle the mess you've typed up to try to garner some meaning from it.
 
The British government will refuse to pay for care if remote authorities calculate that the quality of life of a patient they have never seen is below their statistical expectations.

The british government refuses free treatment to patients who are declared terminally ill when the possible treatment is both very expensive and will only extend their lifespan for a short time. If you are going to claim that the british government refuses treatment based on resulting quality of life rather than lifespan, as you have in the above post, back it up with evidence or withdraw the claim.
 
I agree with the dictionary definition: "the political direction and control exercised over the actions of the members, citizens, or inhabitants of communities, societies, and states; direction of the affairs of a state, community, etc.; political administration: Government is necessary to the existence of civilized society".
Weak. So's oxygen necessary to the existence of a civilized society. Furthermore, cities are not a necessary part of the definition; nomadic societies can also have governments. Here's Wikipedia on Max Weber: "In another major work, Politics as a Vocation, Weber defined the state as an entity which successfully claims a 'monopoly on the legitimate use of violence'."
The above definition applies both to iran and north korea and to sweden and switzerland, and adds a hell of alot more detail than "the biggest dealer in interpersonal violence". What you gave was a description of one aspect of government, while leaving out the vital functions they perform..
Or don't. They'd still be governments if they did not.
...and I don't think i'm stretching very far to say that you did so in order to spin government as purely an instrument of violence because doing so advances your political agenda.
Yes. Thinking clearly advances my agenda.
After the fall of the Soviet State the British poet and historian of that State wrote that the West has incompletely learned two important lessons: the limits to the amount of good which organized violence (the State) can accomplish and the stultifying effects of bureaucracy, public or private.
So if we stretch "corporation" to cover everything, governments are legally corporations. I imagine we can find a definition that says turtles are legally corporations, but that doesn't make them the same thing.
Doubt that you could find any accepted dictionary that defined turtles as corporations. As I said, the legal advisor to the City and County of Honolulu is called the "Corporation Counsel". Here's Merriam Webster Online on "corporation":
Definition of CORPORATION
1a : a group of merchants or traders united in a trade guild b : the municipal authorities of a town or city
2: a body formed and authorized by law to act as a single person although constituted by one or more persons and legally endowed with various rights and duties including the capacity of succession
3: an association of employers and employees in a basic industry or of members of a profession organized as an organ of political representation in a corporative state.
Here's Wikipedia on "incorporated town":
An incorporated town in the United States is an incorporated municipality, that is, one with a charter received from the state, similar to a city. An incorporated town will have elected officials, as differentiated from an unincorporated community, which exists only by tradition and does not have elected officials at the town level. In some states, especially in midwestern and western states, civil townships may sometimes be called towns, but are generally not incorporated municipalities, but are administrative subdivisions and derive their authority from statute rather than from a charter. In New York and Wisconsin, the term "town" refers to municipalities more similar to townships in other states than to incorporated towns in most states (see Administrative divisions of New York, Political subdivisions of Wisconsin). In some other states, the term "town" is not used for municipalities.
Governments are corporations.
No, you don't need to "illuminate every baby step in this argument". You just need to start explaining what your actual point is, rather than stringing together a bunch of words and expecting other people to untangle the mess you've typed up to try to garner some meaning from it.
1. The "economies of scale" argument does not justify a role for government in the medical care industry, the education industry, the pension industry, or the charity industry generally, beyond the role that governments play in the home appliance industry or the clothing industry.
2. Governments attention does not solve free rider problems, it only changes their form.

Eduardo Zambrano
Formal Models of Authority: Introduction and Political Economy Applications
Rationality and Society, May 1999; 11: 115 - 138.
Aside from the important issue of how it is that a ruler may economize on communication, contracting and coercion costs, this leads to an interpretation of the state that cannot be contractarian in nature: citizens would not empower a ruler to solve collective action problems in any of the models discussed, for the ruler would always be redundant and costly. The results support a view of the state that is eminently predatory, (the ? MK.) case in which whether the collective actions problems are solved by the state or not depends on upon whether this is consistent with the objectives and opportunities of those with the (natural) monopoly of violence in society. This conclusion is also reached in a model of a predatory state by Moselle and Polak (1997).
 
The british government refuses free treatment to patients who are declared terminally ill when the possible treatment is both very expensive and will only extend their lifespan for a short time. If you are going to claim that the british government refuses treatment based on resulting quality of life rather than lifespan, as you have in the above post, back it up with evidence or withdraw the claim.
I already did. Go back three posts. Follow the link. Here.
Now imagine that for part of those four years the patient will be in pain and bedridden. NICE might figure the quality of that life at 50 percent of perfect health. Under NICE's formula, that would make the drug half as cost-effective. In other words, the result would be $50,000 per quality-adjusted year gained.
 

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