Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Malfie Henpox]

I've been a viewer of this forum for years, despite this being my first post. I have to say, this thread makes for extremely uncomfortable reading and is unbecoming of this site. In my opinion, of course.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The Statement Analysis blogger wrote, "To this [Nancy Grace's theory that Amanda did not wield the knife but egged on her boyfriend], the statements made by Amanda Knox (and email) agree. Amanda Knox was guilty, in concert, of the murder. Her legion of male love lorn supporters now rejoice, while Meredith's family's pain goes on. Supporters used everything from taunts and insults, to the linguistic gymnastics of hyperbole to plead against the verdict, and condemn anyone disagreeing with them."

The Statement Analysis host did not trouble his readers with anything that might count as evidence to support his viewpoint. As far as I am concerned, he made himself into everything he condemned in others. It is conceivable that the concept of statement analysis is something other than complete woo. What is beyond doubt is the fecklessness of the practitioner in question.

It's amazing the fantasies people create in their minds about people they know so little about.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I've been a viewer of this forum for years, despite this being my first post. I have to say, this thread makes for extremely uncomfortable reading and is unbecoming of this site. In my opinion, of course.

There is an unusual amount of personal animosity in this thread.

 

[Mary_H]

It's amazing the fantasies people create in their minds about people they know so little about.

Ginger, that is almost exactly the same thought I had when I read that! How do some people some up with this stuff?

 

[Mary_H]

I've been a viewer of this forum for years, despite this being my first post. I have to say, this thread makes for extremely uncomfortable reading and is unbecoming of this site. In my opinion, of course.

What do you find uncomfortable, Malfie?

 

[Malfie Henpox]

The constant 'You're not rational', 'No, you're not rational' arguments. Some of things said about the Kerchers. The bashing of those with differing opinions. The general air of pretentious superiority. The strange emotional attachment of people. And the sheer size of the thing. It's all just rather strange.

 

[davefoc]

I've been trying to pin down exactly what legal issues were at stake in the AK/RS trial and outside the trial.

In the recent case
1. AK/RS tried for murder and related stuff(criminal)
2. AK tried for false accusation (criminal)
3. Kerchers suing AK & RS for wrongful death (civil)
4. Lumuba suing AK for defamation or is that a separate trial?

outside the recent case
1. Police suing AK for defamation
2. AK's parents sued for defamation
3. other stuff?

Assuming that I am right that the trial include a civil suit by the Kerchers was it explicitly found that AK/RS were not liable for damages to the Kerchers? Did the Kerchers sue Guede at his original trial? Lumumba was granted some damages from AK. Does he have another civil suit going against AK or did this trial end that?

 

[Prometheus]

That is a GREAT point, and something I have never understood -- e.g. why do some people consider the documents Amanda signed so significant when she signed them, and did not have the ability to read what they said? So people are saying "ah ha! she confessed", when the statements are not only obviously written by the police (just read them, you can tell), but are written in a language she only speaks a little of.

The mere fact that she signed statements written in a language she did not understand also gives insight into her state of mind at the time. She was willing to agree to whatever they wanted, just to have the torture stop. Who in their right mind would sign a statement in a language they did not understand? She was obviously exhausted, scared, and signing something that she did not understand the significance of.

Have you ever installed a piece of software and clicked right past the End User License Agreement without bothering to read what rights you are signing away?

In all seriousness, though, it doesn't even require a below average degree of rationality to do something just that stupid. Robert Cialdini's book, Influence has a chapter all about how frighteningly easy it is for professional interrogators to manipulate almost anyone into exactly this sort of compliance. Even highly intelligent, rational people who swear beforehand that they would never do such a thing can be so manipulated. No torture or physical abuse is required.

Amanda did behave ethically. The police convinced her that the ethical choice would be to accuse Patrick. She did it out of a sense of respect for and cooperation with the police. It is unrealistic and ignorant of human nature to claim that one young individual has the "moral responsibility" to cling to a belief in the face of many authority figures who are denying it and trying to persuade her otherwise. To have done so would have gone against most of the ethical and social principles Amanda had learned throughout her life.

You are doing what you accused LondonJohn of doing, that is, you are stating "rules and principles that don't exist; then you build an argument on them. Based on the principles that you create, your argument stand as rational. But your axiomes are false."

Something very like the sentence I highlighted is part parcel of one of the strongest compliance generating techniques: cultivating a target's self-image as a helpful person and then presenting her with an opportunity to be helpful.

The constant 'You're not rational', 'No, you're not rational' arguments. Some of things said about the Kerchers. The bashing of those with differing opinions. The general air of pretentious superiority. The strange emotional attachment of people. And the sheer size of the thing. It's all just rather strange.

I agree with you as to the distastefulness of some of the polemics this case has inspired. OTOH there really has been quite a display here of a wide variety of just the sorts of irrational behaviours JREF is dedicated to helping people to overcome. Unfortunately, we are all susceptible to things like confirmation bias and memory fragility--even as we are each wired to believe ourselves immune.

 

[Keeper]

Independent's coverage of Sollecito's comments on the Perugia Police...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...cuses-italian-police-of-violence-2366163.html

 

[Teddy2007]

Let's be realistic. It's not very foolish to speak to a judge or to anyone in English if you have anything to say.
Patrick's Italian is rather poor, which is surprising given his long stay in Italy.

I disagree regarding Patrick's Italian. I've heard him speak several times, and while he's clearly not Italian, he speaks and understands Italian very well, and his Italian was in no way comparable to Amanda's Italian of that period.

 

[Brooktrout]

Kokomani

Hello folks,

I don't post very often but I read voraciously. Mostly I hang out at one of the other boards posting under assumed names. But I think I've worn that paradigm out now.

Anyway, what do you think of this Sun reference to Kokomani? Is this new information or is this a story that has floated before? - OBT

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...ut-the-fight-goes-on-for-Meredith-family.html




"Riddle of evidence from the Albanian

EXCLUSIVE from BOB GRAHAM in Perugia

THE spotlight is now set to turn on one of the most controversial witnesses in the trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.

Albanian Hekuran Kokomani, 37, claimed in court he had driven past the home where Brit Meredith Kercher was killed and saw Knox and Sollecito outside.

He claimed Knox started screaming and pulled out a large knife from a bag. He also alleged that Sollecito tried to punch him.

Kokomani's story was ridiculed by the defence teams but prosecutor Giuliano Mignini maintained it was "credible and reliable evidence" that placed Knox and Sollecito at the scene of the crime.

But now we can reveal that the day before Meredith's body was found convicted small-time drug dealer Kokomani PARKED his car in the driveway of the two-storey home she shared in Perugia, Italy.

Several sources in the town claim to have information that suggests he met Rudy Guede, the man still in jail for the murder.

Giuseppe Castellini, editor of the local Giornale dell Umbria paper, told The Sun that Kokomani was at the scene to do a drug deal with Guede. Ivory Coast immigrant Guede, 26, was convicted in a separate fast-track trial and jailed for 30 years — cut to 16 years on appeal.

He then claimed Knox and Sollecito had been in the house and had directed the savage killing.

Guede previously claimed the pair were NOT in the building.

In the weeks that followed the murder, Kokomani fled to Albania claiming that while he was in Italy his life was in danger.

Last week he confirmed in a phone interview he had parked his black Golf in front of the house Meredith and Amanda shared — which had been empty.

The change in his story undermines the prosecution's belief that Knox and Sollecito were at the house at a time when they said they were at Sollecito's flat.

Raffaele's dad Dr Francesco Sollecito told The Sun: "We must find out the truth of Kokomani because the stories we heard in the court were lies."

FBI veteran Steve Moore said of Kokomani: "Investigators need to get to the truth of what he was doing there that evening and what was happening with the meeting with Guede."

 

[lowriderrsa]

A poorly researched article

Such a pity, I love this online publication since it's usually very objective or when they have a strong opinion it's based on fact. Sorry I can't post links yet the website is called DAILYMAVERICK and you add a .co.za at the end

 

[curi0us]

I've been a viewer of this forum for years, despite this being my first post. I have to say, this thread makes for extremely uncomfortable reading and is unbecoming of this site. In my opinion, of course.

So what is it about the case that makes it so this is the first time you've posted at the JREF despite reading here for years? You've never been interested in any other topic enough to post but now choose this thread to complain just a few days after a trial verdict that vindicates what posters here have been saying for years? Seems like pretty funny timing to me.

Have you spent any time reading what is posted at perugiamurderfile.org? If you haven't been reading pmf you can't understand what is going on here. A big part of the reason this thread has heightened animosity is that JREF has been in a forum war with pmf where they ban dissenters and regularly slander Knox, her family, and anyone who supports them including the JREF and posters here. Trying to communicate with them is pointless since they just erase posts and make up stories about people that would be silly if the pmfers didn't actually seem to believe them.

The constant 'You're not rational', 'No, you're not rational' arguments.

Well, when someone isn't rational what do you say to them?

Some of things said about the Kerchers.

Like what?

The bashing of those with differing opinions.

I think the JREf moderators do a great job of keeping the discussion as civil as possible, do you know of a forum where this issue has been discussed with less "bashing"?

The general air of pretentious superiority.

So here you are with only two posts accusing others of being pretentious. Do you see the irony in that?

The strange emotional attachment of people.

If it wasn't for the insane hate directed towards Knox I never would have been so interested in the case so I agree with you, except I think you are posting your complaint in the wrong forum.

And the sheer size of the thing. It's all just rather strange.

I agree.

Welcome to JREF.

 

[Malfie Henpox]

Yes. That's it. Posts like that.

 

[Mary_H]

The constant 'You're not rational', 'No, you're not rational' arguments. Some of things said about the Kerchers. The bashing of those with differing opinions. The general air of pretentious superiority. The strange emotional attachment of people. And the sheer size of the thing. It's all just rather strange.

So what is it about the case that makes it so this is the first time you've posted at the JREF despite reading here for years? You've never been interested in any other topic enough to post but now choose this thread to complain just a few days after a trial verdict that vindicates what posters here have been saying for years? Seems like pretty funny timing to me.

Have you spent any time reading what is posted at perugiamurderfile.org? If you haven't been reading pmf you can't understand what is going on here. A big part of the reason this thread has heightened animosity is that JREF has been in a forum war with pmf where they ban dissenters and regularly slander Knox, her family, and anyone who supports them including the JREF and posters here. Trying to communicate with them is pointless since they just erase posts and make up stories about people that would be silly if the pmfers didn't actually seem to believe them.

Well, when someone isn't rational what do you say to them?
Like what?
I think the JREf moderators do a great job of keeping the discussion as civil as possible, do you know of a forum where this issue has been discussed with less "bashing"?

So here you are with only two posts accusing others of being pretentious. Do you see the irony in that?

If it wasn't for the insane hate directed towards Knox I never would have been so interested in the case so I agree with you, except I think you are posting your complaint in the wrong forum.

I agree.

Welcome to JREF.

curi0us, I love you, but Malfie was not necessarily criticizing the side you're on.

 

[Mary_H]

Might I suggest that Seattle law enforcement officers consider identifying and watching someone with the username "Macport", who posted the following veiled threat on .org earlier today (my bolding):

Okay new angle.
One way or the other, over time, AK will come out from under the Mellox PR campaign regime. She will have her our life again.
No matter what happens in Italy (next appeal, return of a guilty verdict or not, RG being granted his appeal or not, RG beginning to spill the beans or not, RS being returned to prison or not, etc.) AK is not likely to go back or be extradited.
She will internally struggle with what she has done.
She will socially struggle with being hated as a murderer.
Once out from under the Mellox umbrella she will make herself accessible to the world through social media (Facebook, Twitter, etc.).
If she is not to be returned to Italy to service out a sentence and therefore fulfill a need for criminal justice, then perhaps she can be cultivated to service out a sentence of moral justice.Moral justice would considered in terms of what is needed by the Kerchers to come to peace with the murder of their daughter
There are many of us PMFers in the Pacific Northwest where AK is likely to reside.
We reach out.
We cultivate her.
We school her as to what is the right thing to do to absolve herself.
- Tell the truth to the Kerchers as to what happened that night
- Ask for their forgiveness
- Reach out to Patrick and apologize
- Ask for his forgiveness
- ????
- ???
- ??

Not only has this threat been allowed to stand, it appears to have barely been commented upon by the other pro-guilt members of that site. Deeply worrying individual.

I see most of the guilters as people for whom it is very difficult, even painful, to be wrong. (Why they willfully choose to put themselves in the position of being wrong is a question for another day.) People for whom it is difficult to be wrong develop a lot of strong defenses that become automatic over the years. The part I have highlighted in Macport's post strikes me as one of these defenses -- it is another convenient way for the guilters to avoid admitting Amanda is innocent.

Now they can believe that every good act Amanda commits in the future is her way of showing remorse and compensating for murdering Meredith. Every time Amanda freely chooses to be a good person in some way, they will nod knowingly and tell themselves that they know that Amanda is only serving out "a sentence of moral justice." It's a way of resolving the cognitive dissonance that comes with trying to justify their position.

 

[Dan O.]

Thanks for the information. What is the source for this? Based on what you've written it sounds like formal reports about the problems with the hard drives were never released. That sounds pretty bad to me.

Much of the background comes from the report of a computer consultant called in to explain what happened. But his conclusions that the drive was damaged because the voltage was different as if american and european disk drives use different voltages is ridiculous. His alternate theory that the IDE connector was offset because of the existence of 4 extra pins is disproved by the photo showing that the pins were not distorted as they would be if such an error were made.

The clue to what had to have happened came later when it was disclosed that all the drives were being copied at the same time and no changes were made to the setup. Multiple copies of Raffaele's drive were made at this time using the same setup that fried Amanda's and Meredith's drive.

 

[lionking]

curi0us, I love you, but Malfie was not necessarily criticizing the side you're on.

Absolutely. And someone with around 100 posts in seven years "curious" about someone who has been lurking without posting is just too funny for words.

 

[Kaosium]

Hello folks,

I don't post very often but I read voraciously. Mostly I hang out at one of the other boards posting under assumed names. But I think I've worn that paradigm out now.

Anyway, what do you think of this Sun reference to Kokomani? Is this new information or is this a story that has floated before? - OBT

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...ut-the-fight-goes-on-for-Meredith-family.html




"Riddle of evidence from the Albanian

EXCLUSIVE from BOB GRAHAM in Perugia

THE spotlight is now set to turn on one of the most controversial witnesses in the trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.

Albanian Hekuran Kokomani, 37, claimed in court he had driven past the home where Brit Meredith Kercher was killed and saw Knox and Sollecito outside.

He claimed Knox started screaming and pulled out a large knife from a bag. He also alleged that Sollecito tried to punch him.

Kokomani's story was ridiculed by the defence teams but prosecutor Giuliano Mignini maintained it was "credible and reliable evidence" that placed Knox and Sollecito at the scene of the crime.

But now we can reveal that the day before Meredith's body was found convicted small-time drug dealer Kokomani PARKED his car in the driveway of the two-storey home she shared in Perugia, Italy.

Several sources in the town claim to have information that suggests he met Rudy Guede, the man still in jail for the murder.

Giuseppe Castellini, editor of the local Giornale dell Umbria paper, told The Sun that Kokomani was at the scene to do a drug deal with Guede. Ivory Coast immigrant Guede, 26, was convicted in a separate fast-track trial and jailed for 30 years — cut to 16 years on appeal.

He then claimed Knox and Sollecito had been in the house and had directed the savage killing.

Guede previously claimed the pair were NOT in the building.

In the weeks that followed the murder, Kokomani fled to Albania claiming that while he was in Italy his life was in danger.

Last week he confirmed in a phone interview he had parked his black Golf in front of the house Meredith and Amanda shared — which had been empty.

The change in his story undermines the prosecution's belief that Knox and Sollecito were at the house at a time when they said they were at Sollecito's flat.

Raffaele's dad Dr Francesco Sollecito told The Sun: "We must find out the truth of Kokomani because the stories we heard in the court were lies."

FBI veteran Steve Moore said of Kokomani: "Investigators need to get to the truth of what he was doing there that evening and what was happening with the meeting with Guede."

Wow! So that's where the black car came from then? I did always wonder about that. However, why would a person who lied in court to try to convict innocents of murder tell anyone he was at the scene because he was meeting the one who murdered the girl? Why is he coming forward now when the two innocents have been finally freed and people might just be 'eager' to find new...alternatives?

When I became interested in the case Kokomani had been history for a while and I didn't spend much time on his story, only to hear about the olives and the uncle and the buck-teeth or whatever it was and to wonder how anyone could actually be considered less reliable as a witness than Curatolo.

How come they couldn't figure out that the car was from someone they knew claimed to be at the scene anyway? Unregistered?

Giornale dell Umbria? Which one is that, the one Bene works for? Was that also the one with the bogus phone story? Which one was 'responsible' for all the witness? That editor's name has been bandied about recently, not in connection with anything promising for Raffaele and Amanda.

I wonder if this information might have something to do with the Kercher's possible interest in actually learning about the evidence and pursuing someone else besides Raffaele and Amanda? It would be a good sign in my view if Bob Graham was in touch with the Kerchers, he knows what's going on and maybe could explain it if they're open to being released from the mushroom farm.

 

[Paninaro]

Absolutely. And someone with around 100 posts in seven years "curious" about someone who has been lurking without posting is just too funny for words.

As is someone with 22.000 posts commenting on this?

Sollecito and Knox are now free and declared innocent of murder on the grounds of reasonable doubt, as I and others predicted as the only possible outcome.

This means that in the minds of the Italian court and law men Hellmann and Zanetti it does not require believing in a conspiracy on behalf of the police and prosecutors of Perugia to find this possible. They say it was right to investigate and prosecute, but that proof of guilt is lacking. Hellmann says that Guede knows the truth, which I think we can all agree on, and if he doesn't give the details, we will never know exactly what happened.

So are you prepared to change your mind on this subject of a required conspiracy, as the court who considered all the facts of the case do not agree with you?

Aren't you a bit bitter about the verdict yourself?