Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Fine]

"From the police violent actions"

Raffaele accuses the cops of violence during his interrogation, now that he's been released from prison.........

"Dad - he told his son - I'm tired, I want to be alone, to be left alone." Words that emphasize a mood still uncertain that explains who has seen him, oscillates between joy and anger. And the anger leaks out, at times, in long conversations with his father as when the boy explains why the first night of questioning did not think to call a lawyer. "I was in front of the police and I could not imagine that was not even there to protect me as my father always taught me. I could not imagine that the police instead of protecting citizens could exercise coercive and violent actions. " Bitter words, hard, leading to urge that night when he was subjected, as the father trying to be diplomatic, to a "very forceful interrogation under conditions of physical and psychological." "The shoes were also removed." "And I will not say more," said the grim father who has never stopped fighting to bring back his son.

LaStampa

Hmmmmm.

///

 

[Chris_Halkides]

a timeline of half-truths

No, the timeline is the following:
SNIP
Two days later, on nov 8., Amanda appeared before GIP Claudia Matteini. Because the hand written statement was partly retracting and contradicting the previous statement, while still producing evidence against Patrick Lumumba and also against Raffaele Sollecito, she was asked if she wanted to answer questions by the judge. She decided not to answer. She also decided to not release further spontaneous statements to clarify the previous ones.

Amanda did not make any further statement - nor written nor oral - to clarify anything about her false accusation of Patrick Lumumba, she kept her silence for about 20 days until Guede was arrested.

Amanda was interrogated again on Dec 18., this time by the Public Minister. In this occasion, when she was asked questions about her false accusation of Lumumba, she burst in tears and was unable to answer, and pleaded her right not to answer.

Machiavelli,

This is terribly misleading, on the verge of being outright false. You are leaving out the fact that Amanda and Raffaele were both denied an opportunity to speak to their respective lawyers before appearing in front of Judge Matteini. But more critically, you are leaving out the fact that Amanda was questioned by PM Mignini for about 5-6 hours before she declined to answer further questions. From what I can gather, PM Mignini was his usual harsh, intimidating, badgering self. You have also left out the events of 30 November. IIRC, she apologized to the court for implicating Patrick on this occasion.

 

[Scorpion NITE]

[qimg]http://gifninja.com/animatedgifs/220802/beating-a-feaf-horse2.gif[/qimg]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_8CgZn7SSp9g/STjHermF-1I/AAAAAAAAAZM/G9kSGOR-hnY/s1600/broken+record.jpg

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Ron Hendry

They could do with speaking to Ron Hendry.

Lyle has said he browses the blogs (and forums?) - maybe he hasn't been reading the right ones?

I sincerely hope they find the truth and some sort of peace at some stage.

Scorpion NITE,

Ron Hendry would be a very good choice to fulfill such a role.

 

[spartacus]

To me, that he ruled the simulated break-in did not occur, points to one burglar, Guede. I imagine he will touch on this possibility in his motivation report, regardless of that other high court ruling about more than one attacker.

It seems the Kerchers are starting to be open to this possibility as well, excluding Knox and Sollecito, and asking about "the others" - the others being very illogical at this point, as a theory. They may have distanced themselves from Maresca, because, as Malkmus has said, they see he was less than honest with them regarding the evidence against the defendants.

Hellmann is saying there could have been someone in addition to Rudy, but he doesn't know. But it isn't AK or RS. Rudy in one of his stories to Alessi said there was another person with him. So that's possible. We'll probably never know.

BTW the Digos people who shouted "vergogna" (shame) outside the courthouse are a branch of the police, apparently off duty. Divisione Investigazioni Generali e Operazioni Speciali. So it basically "il blanco". Big deal.

Mainstream media continues to get it wrong, NYT said Mignini has the chance for another appeal (he doesn't), LJ has explained in here over and over again the way it really works.

Rumor has it that an Italian paper is doing a story on the role of internet forums like this one on shedding light on judicial cases.

 

[Scorpion NITE]

Raffaele and Amanda.

Raffaele and Amanda will probably meet up in Seattle !! (according to her father anyway)




Was it BOLINT who was so interested in why Amanda and Raffaele did not hug in court (despite the guards whisking Amanda away almost as soon as the verdict was announced)?

Here ya go:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...o-prepares-fly-Seattle.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

 

[Justinian2]

No, the timeline is the following:

Knox made oral statements during the questioning, at the presence of Anna Donnino, accusing Patrick Lumumba. In the first part of the interrogation she denied all police suspicions/allegations that she was lying and covering somebody. Then she was told that Sollecito had withdrawn from her alibi. When she was aksed about the sms message, and understood the police got focused because of its Italian wording, that they thought she was lying about it and thought she had met with someone that night (the unknown recipient of the msg), Knox suddenly accused Lumumba. Crying, covering her ears wth her hands, saying "he's bad" and said they went home together, they wanted to have fun, he wanted her and asaulted her in her room. The police stopped the questioning due to self-incriminating statement, as the qustioning shifted her status to that of a a formal suspect. She signed the minutes of this questioning at 01:45

Then she was given a chamomille tee.

At a time that we can roughly place about 3:00 (very approx.) Mignini came and told her about her status of formal suspect, told her about her rights, and told her that he would not interrogate her but if she wanted to provide them with information so to arrest Lumumba, she could make further statements.

Amanda released an oral statement that was not recorded but verbalized at the presence of the magistrate, the interpreter Anna Donnino and other officers. The statement was finished at 5:54 am and Amanda signed it.

Later in the morning, at about 8:00, Amanda asked for paper and a pen, she wrote herself a two pages memoriale which she gave to Rifa Ficarra saying "it's a gift". She later claimed she wrote this hand written note by her decision, voluntarily, and she gave it voluntarily to the police.

Two days later, on nov 8., Amanda appeared before GIP Claudia Matteini. Because the hand written statement was partly retracting and contradicting the previous statement, while still producing evidence against Patrick Lumumba and also against Raffaele Sollecito, she was asked if she wanted to answer questions by the judge. She decided not to answer. She also decided to not release further spontaneous statements to clarify the previous ones.

Amanda did not make any further statement - nor written nor oral - to clarify anything about her false accusation of Patrick Lumumba, she kept her silence for about 20 days until Guede was arrested.

Amanda was interrogated again on Dec 18., this time by the Public Minister. In this occasion, when she was asked questions about her false accusation of Lumumba, she burst in tears and was unable to answer, and pleaded her right not to answer.

Machiavelli,

Do you like and trust Mignini, or do you just speak to him occasionally?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

pointing the finger

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/05/amanda-knox-making-of-she-devil?newsfeed=true

A terrific article; thanks. Ms. Orr wrote, "Weirdly, I have never come across anyone suggesting that Guede is a bit of a reprobate even for fleeing the scene of a murder he didn't commit, as he claims, let alone pointing the finger at two innocent people who served eight years in prison between them, partly on the strength of his evidence."

 

[JREF2010]

face to face with a thief, rapist, and murderer

Sounds as though even Hellman is now trying to make this seem like reasonable doubt, which is a shame, as he spoke with such authority at the verdict, saying that he could not comply with prosecution's request for life sentences, as the crimes were not committed. Now, look: Ignoring it will not make it go away, though:

http://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2011/10/05/news/giudici-amanda-22733550/?ref=HREC1-1

we can all get different interpretations of the same article...

i interpret this media, as if Hellman's only explaining the facts due to the media pressures and tense situation.

i interpret it as Hellman speaking in very general terms "no they couldnt keep them in Italy" "no one knows the truth because they weren't in the cottage." and "its unsolved because Rudy never confessed the truth."

I could be totally wrong, but thats how I read the multitude of media articles on this subject.

Heres the conviction differences between Rudy and the other two, imo.

Forensic.
Rudy had serious forensic evidence against him.
the other two did not.

Witnesses
Rudy admitted being there. No witnesses needed.
The other two, confused heroin bum who made the Italian courtroom laugh.

Motive.
Rudy was a burglar, the Milan video and other testimonys. Motive- Probable Burglary. Money, cell phones, possible womens watch stolen.
Three people found the burglar Rudy, Maria del Pratto, the locksmith, 6yr son.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfA7rrmfedE

the other two, No motive per Commodi.

 

[Ammonitida]

To me, that he ruled the simulated break-in did not occur, points to one burglar, Guede. I imagine he will touch on this possibility in his motivation report, regardless of that other high court ruling about more than one attacker.

It seems the Kerchers are starting to be open to this possibility as well, excluding Knox and Sollecito, and asking about "the others" - the others being very illogical at this point, as a theory. They may have distanced themselves from Maresca, because, as Malkmus has said, they see he was less than honest with them regarding the evidence against the defendants.

It makes no sense whatsoever to rule that the break-in was real while at the same time leave open the possibility that Amanda was still somehow involved with weird statements like, "maybe the two defendants also know". She had keys to the place. She lived there! She wouldn't need to break in nor would she do something as preposterous as team up with a burglar to rape and murder her roommate. Hellman makes no sense. This will breathe some life into the vile hate-mongers at PMF.

"http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/I ... 204063.php


Speaking of Knox and Sollecito, Pratillo Hellmann told the interviewer: "I felt emotion because they are two young people who suffered, justly or unjustly, I repeat, we can never say with certainty."

Knox and Sollecito have vehemently denied wrongdoing in Kercher's murder. Knox flew home to Seattle on Tuesday, her first full day out of jail since she was arrested a few days after the murder. Sollecito was resting at his family home, his lawyers said.

Asked who knew the truth about the slaying, Pratillo Hellmann referred to a third defendant, Rudy Guede, who was convicted of Kercher's murder in a separate trial and is serving a 16-year sentence in Italy.

"Certainly Rudy Guede" knows, he said. "I won't say he's the only one to know," the judge added.

Referring to Knox and Sollecito, who were both convicted of sexual assault and murder in a the lower court trial, the judge said that "maybe the two defendants also know" what really happened, but "our verdict of acquittal is the result of the truth that was created in the trial."

 

[smkovalinksy]

Hellmann is saying there could have been someone in addition to Rudy, but he doesn't know. But it isn't AK or RS. Rudy in one of his stories to Alessi said there was another person with him. So that's possible. We'll probably never know.

BTW the Digos people who shouted "vergogna" (shame) outside the courthouse are a branch of the police, apparently off duty. Divisione Investigazioni Generali e Operazioni Speciali. So it basically "il blanco". Big deal.

Mainstream media continues to get it wrong, NYT said Mignini has the chance for another appeal (he doesn't), LJ has explained in here over and over again the way it really works.

Rumor has it that an Italian paper is doing a story on the role of internet forums like this one on shedding light on judicial cases.

That should be interesting, indeed! I think they should give some weight to Ron Hendry's Lone Wolf killer analysis. I doubt there were others involved.
Yes, off-duty Polizia, what a surprise. And errors in reporting still abound in this case.

 

[curi0us]

Raffaele accuses the cops of violence during his interrogation, now that he's been released from prison.........

"Dad - he told his son - I'm tired, I want to be alone, to be left alone." Words that emphasize a mood still uncertain that explains who has seen him, oscillates between joy and anger. And the anger leaks out, at times, in long conversations with his father as when the boy explains why the first night of questioning did not think to call a lawyer. "I was in front of the police and I could not imagine that was not even there to protect me as my father always taught me. I could not imagine that the police instead of protecting citizens could exercise coercive and violent actions. " Bitter words, hard, leading to urge that night when he was subjected, as the father trying to be diplomatic, to a "very forceful interrogation under conditions of physical and psychological." "The shoes were also removed." "And I will not say more," said the grim father who has never stopped fighting to bring back his son.

LaStampa

Hmmmmm.
///

Hmm indeed. I've seen the shoe removal thing mentioned ominously before but wasn't sure what to make of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot_whipping

Interesting detail from the wiki:

"Foot whipping was used by Fascist Blackshirts against Freemasons critical of Benito Mussolini as early as 1923. (Dalzell, 1961)"

Prior to reading that I always thought Mignini's issues with Freemasons was just part of his inclination to see weird satanic conspiracies everywhere but I just did some research and the FreeMasons in Italy were a legitimate political force opposed to fascism and Mussolini's dictatorship. Considering how fascist Mignini and Yummi come across I think there is a topic worthy of further study there.

 

[Machiavelli]

Machiavelli,

This is terribly misleading, on the verge of being outright false. You are leaving out the fact that Amanda and Raffaele were both denied an opportunity to speak to their respective lawyers before appearing in front of Judge Matteini. But more critically, you are leaving out the fact that Amanda was questioned by PM Mignini for about 5-6 hours before she declined to answer further questions. From what I can gather, PM Mignini was his usual harsh, intimidating, badgering self. You have also left out the events of 30 November. IIRC, she apologized to the court for implicating Patrick on this occasion.

I don't think it's misleading at all. Even less false. What is there of false? It's the plain truth. Every step I addressed is true. Obviously there are a lot of other true things that you can add, and that I can add to my narrative, and I have omitted them to be syntetic. The summary expresses what I think are the significant points.

That they were denied an opportunity to speak with their lawyers, this happened between morning of nov 6 and morning of nov 8. That was a period of time during which they did not release any declaration. So I don't see the point. Their isolation from consuelling before judge interrogation is a legal tool. It has right the purpose to prevent them from polluting their interrogation with external information. It is the significance of this element that we seem to interpret very differently. Patrick underwent the same treatment; but Patrick did immdiately speak with the judge and he anwered to all questions consistently. I don't think this delay of taking legal cousuel has any implication on one's ability to give consistent explanations or take consistent positions. Moreover, it doesn't prevent one from speaking for two weeks.

Amanda was questioned by Mignini for 5 hours. It's true; albeit not consecutively. But she was unable to answer only whens she came to some specific points. In fact, only when it came to one point she decided not to answer: it was when the topic of the question fell on why she accused Patrick Lumumba. She was not questioned 5 hours on that point; not even one hour, not even ten minutes on that point.
Despite the fact that Amanda was able to answer for 5 hours - mostly without problems (except one topic of contestation) - by an unfortunate coincidence she failed to answer right on the topic of her false accusation.
Too bad she didn't do something like, let's say, giving consistent answers on her false accusation, and then refuse to answer on something else. No: she refused to talk when it came to that topic.

"harsh, intimidating, badgering" ? however Patrick himself felt always serene when questioned by Mignini. A person who is trying to cheat and hide something would indeed feel intimidated by Mignini; not an innocent who has nothing to hide an a clear consistent version.

30 november .. of what year? You know, in Italian, the word "apologize" means to blame oneself and to make an offer of compensation, at least an attempt of pursueing a practical compensation, which generally has a monetary nature.
We don't have the public humiliation form of apology as way of redemption: apologizing means making an offer, attempting a settlment privately.

 

[Slayhamlet]

I read the opposite, that Hellmann said Rudy Guede was the killer.

PRESIDENT OF COURT AND NOW FOR AMANDA 'INNOCENT - "For the moment Amanda Knox is absolutely innocent", said President of the Assize Court of Appeal in Perugia, Claudio Pratillo Hellmann, who met with reporters. Concerning the return of the American student in the U.S., the judge noted that "we could not keep it here in advance of the pending Supreme Court."

PRESIDENT OF THE COURT ON MURDER TRUTH 'WICKED - the murder of Meredith Kercher "will remain an unsolved truth" according to President of the Assize Court of Appeal in Perugia, Claudio Pratillo Hellmann. "No - he said - one can say how the facts are. The one is Rudy Guede."

http://www.ansa.it/web/notizie/rubriche/cronaca/2011/09/21/visualizza_new.html_700992532.html


I read this as him answering a question about if the murder would be unsolved.

He's saying that no one besides Rudy knows if there were others involved or who they were.

I disagree and think we can know with a fair degree of confidence that Rudy acted alone. Of course we can't be absolutely certain, but I don't think that's too much of a problem.

 

[Machiavelli]

Machiavelli,

Do you like and trust Mignini, or do you just speak to him occasionally?

I met him twice and I only spoke to him on one occasion.
I didn't know anything about him some year ago ago; at first, I didn't have any bad feeling but neither any real sympathy; later on I have learnt things about him as a person, and I like him and trust him.

 

[Slayhamlet]

Hmm indeed. I've seen the shoe removal thing mentioned ominously before but wasn't sure what to make of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot_whipping

Interesting detail from the wiki:

"Foot whipping was used by Fascist Blackshirts against Freemasons critical of Benito Mussolini as early as 1923. (Dalzell, 1961)"

Prior to reading that I always thought Mignini's issues with Freemasons was just part of his inclination to see weird satanic conspiracies everywhere but I just did some research and the FreeMasons in Italy were a legitimate political force opposed to fascism and Mussolini's dictatorship. Considering how fascist Mignini and Yummi come across I think there is a topic worthy of further study there.

If there had been foot whipping it probably would have come out by now. They removed his shoes presumably to match them to the bloody footprint (which they did, erroneously of course). I think his father is referring to the fact that they didn't give him any replacement shoes and marched him around barefoot after the arrest.

 

[Machiavelli]

At what time did Knox first start denying police allegations? Because she was obviously a "suspect" at that point.

She was obviously a suspect from minute one since the police arrived at the cottage and discovered the staged break in. This if you mean "suspect" in the common meaning of the term that is a person who attracts suspicion, on which people are investigating and collect information. This is absolutely obvious, and means absolutely nothing. You can abandon this argument forever.

Again, at what time? I was under the impression that it was quite early in the interrogation, again showing undeniably she was already a suspect.
What time did the police first look at the text message? You seem to have a nearly 3 hour gap in your timeline here.
Also, what time did Donninio suggest to Knox that she was repressing her memory of what happened?

There is no point in asking and answering these questions. They are unnecessary. Knox was found guilty of willfully falsely accusing an innocent, without coercion and without possibility of justifying, beyond reasonable doubt. This is because the information we have about is sufficient to infer this conclusion inequivocably.
If she wanted to clarify many of these points, like when and why she started screaming and crying, she could have given all these details herself. For the rest, there are seven witnesses.

Among things we know later, we know that there was no interrogation before her 05:54 statement, that was a sponteneous statement; it was found to be perfectly legal, not suspicious, not coerced, not falsified.
The rest of what you say is just nonsense to me.

 

[charlatan]

Raffaele accuses the cops of violence during his interrogation, now that he's been released from prison.........

So now we have three people who've accused the police of physical and psychological abuse during questioning in this matter. It's beyond me how any rational observer can claim the fruits of these interrogations were not tainted.

 

[Scorpion NITE]

Machiavelli discusses Mignini:

I met him twice and I only spoke to him on one occasion. I didn't know anything about him some year ago ago; at first, I didn't have any bad feeling but neither any real sympathy; later on I have learnt things about him as a person, and I like him and trust him.

 

[theRealBob]

Until today I have always been firmly of the belief that Amanda only responded to the prompts from the interrogators regarding Patrick. It was their lead, their story.

But now I'm not so sure and believe that in her nervy gloom in there that she may have respoded immaturely at this stage of the proceedings which is probably the one thing she may be guily of except

Charge B - not flushing the loo

C - owning a toy vibrator

D - being in possession of a family that transports a public relations supertanker, and

E - having Aids

By the way that was a very good post by somone earlier on where it was commented upon that the cops did tell Amanda in the interrogation that they had clear evidence that Patrick and Amanda were in the cottagae that night.

PPS. She's saying too much in those initial interiews. Juicy little stories like intimate revelations about the guards are best saved for when the money comes along........