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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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What makes you think it was an accusation?

Okay, this is getting ridiculous.

I'm not trying to dispute Knox's innocence, or the inhumane methods that the Italian police used during her interrogation. I don't know how you guys magically know that the police planted a false memory in Knox's mind, and she wasn't just accusing Lumumba so they'd let her get the **** out of there. I already said that by accusing Lumumba, Knox plainly demonstrated that she didn't have any knowledge of Guede, because there was no one else she could conceivably think of blaming.

All I'm trying to do is point out that she didn't confess to anything. And I'm sure there's a pretty, blue-eyed reason why people here seem to have a problem admitting that.

-Mike
 
Might I suggest that Seattle law enforcement officers consider identifying and watching someone with the username "Macport", who posted the following veiled threat on .org earlier today (my bolding):

Okay new angle.
One way or the other, over time, AK will come out from under the Mellox PR campaign regime. She will have her our life again.
No matter what happens in Italy (next appeal, return of a guilty verdict or not, RG being granted his appeal or not, RG beginning to spill the beans or not, RS being returned to prison or not, etc.) AK is not likely to go back or be extradited.
She will internally struggle with what she has done.
She will socially struggle with being hated as a murderer.
Once out from under the Mellox umbrella she will make herself accessible to the world through social media (Facebook, Twitter, etc.).
If she is not to be returned to Italy to service out a sentence and therefore fulfill a need for criminal justice, then perhaps she can be cultivated to service out a sentence of moral justice.
Moral justice would considered in terms of what is needed by the Kerchers to come to peace with the murder of their daughter
There are many of us PMFers in the Pacific Northwest where AK is likely to reside.
We reach out.
We cultivate her.
We school her as to what is the right thing to do to absolve herself.
- Tell the truth to the Kerchers as to what happened that night
- Ask for their forgiveness
- Reach out to Patrick and apologize
- Ask for his forgiveness
- ????
- ???
- ??


Not only has this threat been allowed to stand, it appears to have barely been commented upon by the other pro-guilt members of that site. Deeply worrying individual.
 
Sounds as though even Hellman is now trying to make this seem like reasonable doubt, which is a shame, as he spoke with such authority at the verdict, saying that he could not comply with prosecution's request for life sentences, as the crimes were not committed. Now, look::jaw-dropp:mad::mad::mad: Ignoring it will not make it go away, though:



http://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2011/10/05/news/giudici-amanda-22733550/?ref=HREC1-1
No, now that I re-read, they misquoted Hellman in the subtitle. He really has not backed down much, the others are more extreme in their stances.
 
The armchair psychology that declares that Knox believed what police told her (and wasn't just accusing Lumumba to save her own skin) is one of those self-validating notions of which reasonable people should be skeptical. The fact that you invoke "false confession syndrome" to explain what she did is the only reason you've decided it's permissible to ignore the fact that she signed not a confession, but an accusation of an innocent man.

If the best argument you've got is to make up a story where I believe things for stupid reasons, you don't have any decent arguments.

Do you actually know anything about internalised false confessions, and have you read Knox's statements? I suspect the answer is no to one or both, because anyone familiar with the relevant material can immediately see that Knox's statement bears several hallmarks of an internalised false statement and was produced under conditions known to elicit internalised false statements.

If it walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck and it walked right out of a duck factory a rational person has grounds to think it's a duck.

Here's another distinction you seem to have trouble with. I don't believe Knox was guilty of the murder. What I believe is that she falsely accused Lumumba, but her supporters resent when anyone points that out.

I didn't say you were a guilter. I said that your argument was a guilter talking point which several of us here are already very familiar with, as it's been debunked and then posted again multiple times in the last year or so. Hopefully this is a distinction you won't have trouble with.
 
Sounds as though even Hellman is now trying to make this seem like reasonable doubt, which is a shame, as he spoke with such authority at the verdict, saying that he could not comply with prosecution's request for life sentences, as the crimes were not committed. Now, look::jaw-dropp:mad::mad::mad: Ignoring it will not make it go away, though:



http://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2011/10/05/news/giudici-amanda-22733550/?ref=HREC1-1

Well the verdict/sentence will have to be written out so it will be clear what he meant. I am not sure so cannot say one way or the other.

I think it would be strong reasonable doubt if that is what was meant by the acquittal. I have read in this article and elsewhere that contrary to what others have said, Rudy did not place Amanda and Raffaele at the cottage but rather said he believed in his heart they were there (cannot convict on thoughts and anyways Rudy is a liar), the two items which were strong pieces of evidence in the prosecution's case were questionable as to how the DNA was on them and the witness placing them near the scene of the crime (Curatolo) testimony was shown to be unreliable. I think that if these are no longer valid to be used against Amanda and Raffaele and there is question as to how they were obtained, it has to place the other remaining evidence against them in question. So an acquittal was the right way to go.
 
Sounds as though even Hellman is now trying to make this seem like reasonable doubt, which is a shame, as he spoke with such authority at the verdict, saying that he could not comply with prosecution's request for life sentences, as the crimes were not committed. Now, look::jaw-dropp:mad::mad::mad: Ignoring it will not make it go away, though:



http://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2011/10/05/news/giudici-amanda-22733550/?ref=HREC1-1


Ah but be very careful here. The 530.1 acquittal does not imply that the accused were definitively innocent of the crime. Instead, it holds that there is no evidence that the accused committed the crime. There is a huge and critically important difference.

In a nutshell, 530.1 = no evidence that the accused committed the crime, and 530.2 = some evidence that the accused committed the crime, but insufficient weight of evidence to convict beyond a reasonable doubt.

Therefore Hellmann's statements that the truth of the crime can never be known for certain, or even that it's impossible to know the truth behind Knox's/Sollecito's role (if any) in the crime, are totally compatible with a 530.1 verdict. Absent a cast-iron alibi, no judge or jury in the world could ever find that any given defendant is definitively innocent of a crime. But a 530.1 acquittal in Italy is as close as one can come to that extreme.
 
Okay, this is getting ridiculous.

I'm not trying to dispute Knox's innocence, or the inhumane methods that the Italian police used during her interrogation. I don't know how you guys magically know that the police planted a false memory in Knox's mind, and she wasn't just accusing Lumumba so they'd let her get the **** out of there. I already said that by accusing Lumumba, Knox plainly demonstrated that she didn't have any knowledge of Guede, because there was no one else she could conceivably think of blaming.

All I'm trying to do is point out that she didn't confess to anything. And I'm sure there's a pretty, blue-eyed reason why people here seem to have a problem admitting that.

-Mike

There are some of us that don't go for the false memory theory.

There is at least one of us that thinks Raffaele's eyes are much more striking than the Witchgirl's.
 
I know this has been discussed for years, but the mention of Patrick's alibi from 8 to 10 pm reawakened an old thought.

If he has only an alibi until 10 (were there others that alibied him later?) how does that cover the murder that was done at 11:30?

It seems clear that the police were pretty sure of a TOD before 10pm until Curatolo.

Is there any evidence when the police moved the TOD to 11:30 or later?
 
They are not logically linked. It is possible that Knox had nothing to do with the murder, yet still decided to falsely accuse Lumumba of her own free will. Perhaps, for example, she was fed up with the police insinuating that she was involved in the murder, and decided to send them off on a wild goose chase after Lumumba in order to stop the police from hassling her.

Perhaps. But they already had stopped putting pressure on her: she told the story in a spontnepous statement, not an interrogarions. Then told new false stories and false accusations in hand written notes, and through a series of othr decisions unrelated to pressure.
Perhaps she did that because she is an irrational and dangerous idiot.
But, you see, one cannot start from the assumption that it is just likely that everything remains defined as a series of irrational and unexplained actions. You have to start from the assumption that there is likely some rational direction in one's actions, because this is the normality. Total foolishnesss on a series of actions is rare, requires some evidence. And in Amanda's case the direction of her actions is obvious. There is a logical and rational explanation immediately visible and thy point in that direction.

But the point is not that it is possible for Knox to be totally innocent (you know, under 530.1) of the murder, yet still guilty of criminal slander against Lumumba. The point is that there is clearly now reasonable doubt that she willfully falsely accused Lumumba, given that she was exonerated of the murder.

Absolutely not. Quite the contrary. If there were reasonable doubt in the court's minds, she would have been acquitted. There is no reasonable doubt - there must be no reasonable doubt in the sentencing report, in order not to invalidate it - that she willfully falsely accused Lumumba; moreover, there must be no reasonable doubt that she knew Lumumba was innocent.

So by your own explanation, you rendered quite well the reasons why this verdict could be easily nullified by the Cassazione. You make my point showing how the charges are linked and the verdict is contradictory. How can the there be innocence (or reasonable doubt, recall we don't know yet if its' 530.1 or 530.2) on murder, and no reasonable doubt she willfully falsely accused Lumumba. Good question. You have to put it to those judges who issued the verdict.
I'm sure the Supreme Court will put the same questions.

The main plank of the case any for willful false accusation - that Knox was culpable of the murder, and therefore deliberately chose to falsely accuse an innocent man as an attempt to evade justice - is now gone. Therefore the criminal slander guilty verdict is impossible to justify on a "beyond a reasonable doubt" test now. I predict that it will probably be quashed on appeal, and sent back to the appeal court level as a stand-alone charge.

Interesting, so you predict that the sentence will be nullified. You need to destroy the verdict in order to perform that operation that you wish; you must in fact nullify the whole sentencing report.
In practical terms, you are saying this verdict is rubbish. You need an entire new writing of the whole verdict in order to form a consistent document, this is what you say. And, you may not "destroy" a verdict on appeal in which the first instance was conviction, without repeating the appeal. Your claim requires an entire re-setting of the whole appeal. You seem to think you will "skip" this pesky passage and re-state a trial as a one charge standong alone trial. I think, instead, this will not be possible. The charges are knit togehter by continuation and you may not nullify half a document and approve pieces cut off with scissors from its text and from its logic. The Cassazione needs a correct sentencing report ready to be approved.
Moreover, all this process need an application by the defence to appeal against the verdict by the supreme court.

Incidentally, to clarify what some others have said, Knox is not a convicted felon. She will not stand convicted of the criminal slander charge unless and until the Supreme Court affirms the verdict and imposes the sentence. And in that regard, she has not in fact served a three-year sentence for the crime.

In that regard, if her conviction is confirmed by the Cassazione, her three years will be considered served. I mean, precisely served, the sentence will not declares not suspended nor will be ordered to serve further years: she will be considered as having been justly detained for three of the four years and will be in fact asked to pay for her feeding and sheltering in prison.
By now, she can be called a person convicted for a felony in Italy. But there the point is about youf beliefs. If you already think she is innocent, you anticipate the conviction will be overturned. Otherwise she is just convicted by now.
 
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Ah but be very careful here. The 530.1 acquittal does not imply that the accused were definitively innocent of the crime. Instead, it holds that there is no evidence that the accused committed the crime. There is a huge and critically important difference.

In a nutshell, 530.1 = no evidence that the accused committed the crime, and 530.2 = some evidence that the accused committed the crime, but insufficient weight of evidence to convict beyond a reasonable doubt.

Therefore Hellmann's statements that the truth of the crime can never be known for certain, or even that it's impossible to know the truth behind Knox's/Sollecito's role (if any) in the crime, are totally compatible with a 530.1 verdict. Absent a cast-iron alibi, no judge or jury in the world could ever find that any given defendant is definitively innocent of a crime. But a 530.1 acquittal in Italy is as close as one can come to that extreme.

I still think the murder charge reasoning is on 530.2 and the staging, knife, and theft on 530.1. They all don't have to have the same apply, do they?
 
Ah but be very careful here. The 530.1 acquittal does not imply that the accused were definitively innocent of the crime. Instead, it holds that there is no evidence that the accused committed the crime. There is a huge and critically important difference.

In a nutshell, 530.1 = no evidence that the accused committed the crime, and 530.2 = some evidence that the accused committed the crime, but insufficient weight of evidence to convict beyond a reasonable doubt.

Therefore Hellmann's statements that the truth of the crime can never be known for certain, or even that it's impossible to know the truth behind Knox's/Sollecito's role (if any) in the crime, are totally compatible with a 530.1 verdict. Absent a cast-iron alibi, no judge or jury in the world could ever find that any given defendant is definitively innocent of a crime. But a 530.1 acquittal in Italy is as close as one can come to that extreme.
Yes, I do see, and thanks for the clarification. Also appreciated christianahannah's illumination of the piece. I think what was disconcerting was that I had sensed a true authority in his ruling, and now this piece in Repubblica.italia is being used to "scorn" on Websleuths; i.e., "they got off on a technicality", etc.
 
let's take hotness out of the mix

I'm just wondering whether her supporters are too blinded by her hawtness to admit that she never confessed to anything, regardless of how many times they say that police coerced her into a false confession.

-Mike
Micromegas,

I think if you decoupled the issue of hotness from the issue of whether or not she made a confession, the discussion could move ahead in a more cordial fashion. It is my impression that you have yet to respond to the arguments some of us have presented for not drawing a sharp distinction between confession and accusation.
 
Yes, I do see, and thanks for the clarification. Also appreciated christianahannah's illumination of the piece. I think what was disconcerting was that I had sensed a true authority in his ruling, and now this piece in Repubblica.italia is being used to "scorn" on Websleuths; i.e., "they got off on a technicality", etc.

No, they didn't get off on a technicality. I think when the motivations comes out that will be made clear.
 
Perhaps. But they already had stopped putting pressure on her: she told the story in a spontnepous statement, not an interrogarions. Then told new false stories and false accusations in hand written notes, and through a series of othr decisions unrelated to pressure.

Machiavelli--My understanding is that the thing went like this: (i) the police interrogated and Knox made oral statements to them, (ii) the police typed something up, that they thought reflected what Knox had said, and these typed statements (1:45) and (5:45) implicated Knox, (iii) the typed statements were translated, orally, to Knox, and (iv) Knox signed them.

Did the police not know that before they asked Knox to sign the statements, that she should have a lawyer? Even assuming that Knox's oral statement was "spontaneous," surely, her signing of a document that the police had typed was not.
 
Do you actually know anything about internalised false confessions, and have you read Knox's statements? I suspect the answer is no to one or both, because anyone familiar with the relevant material can immediately see that Knox's statement bears several hallmarks of an internalised false statement and was produced under conditions known to elicit internalised false statements.

If it walks like a duck, it quacks like a duck and it walked right out of a duck factory a rational person has grounds to think it's a duck.
From this site, an article on internalized false confessions by Saul Kassin at Williams College:

(1) There is a suspect who is rendered highly vulnerable to manipulation as a function of dispositional characteristics (e.g., young, naïve, mentally retarded, suggestible, or otherwise impaired) and there are more transient factors associated with the crime, custody, and interrogation (e.g., extreme stress, feelings of isolation, sleep deprivation, the influence of drugs).

(2) Knowingly or unknowingly, the police confront the suspect with false but allegedly objective and incontrovertible evidence of his or her involvement evidence in the form of a failed polygraph, an eyewitness, a fingerprint, a shoeprint, or a DNA sample.

(3) Often with guidance from police, the suspect reconciles his or her lack of memory with the alleged evidence by presuming that he or she had blacked out, dissociated, repressed, or otherwise failed to recollect the event.

(4) The suspect makes a tentative admission of guilt, typically using a language of inference rather than of direct experience (e.g., “I guess I did it,” “I may have done it,” or “I must have done it” rather than “I did it”).

(5) The suspect may convert the simple admission into a fully detailed confession in which confabulations of memory originate from his or her exposure to secondhand sources of information (e.g., leading questions, overheard conversations, crime scene photos, and visits to the crime scene), often facilitated by various imaginational exercises (e.g., “Think hard about how you would have done it.”).

All it's missing is a mention of internalized false confessions where the person incriminates someone else and not himself.

So maybe it's not a duck after all.

-Mike
 
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Perhaps. But they already had stopped putting pressure on her: she told the story in a spontnepous statement, not an interrogarions. Then told new false stories and false accusations in hand written notes, and through a series of othr decisions unrelated to pressure.
Perhaps she did that because she is an irrational and dangerous idiot.
But, you see, one cannot start from the assumption that it is just likely that everything remains defined as a series of irrational and unexplained actions. You have to start from the assumption that there is likely some rational direction in one's actions, because this is the normality. Total foolishnesss on a series of actions is rare, requires some evidence. And in Amanda's case the direction of her actions is obvious. There is a logical and rational explanation immediately visible and thy point in that direction.


Wrong. If there is a suspicion that Knox did not accuse Lumumba of her own free will (e.g. that she was convinced by the police that she had had traumatic memory loss, and that the police had firm evidence that Lumumba had killed Meredith while she stood by), then there is no mens rea. And if that's the case, then the guilty verdict for criminal slander is unsafe.


Absolutely not. Quite the contrary. If there were reasonable doubt in the court's minds, she would have been acquitted. There is no reasonable doubt - there must be no reasonable doubt in the sentencing report, in order not to invalidate it - that she willfully falsely accused Lumumba; moreover, there must be no reasonable doubt that she knew Lumumba was innocent.

So by your own explanation, you rendered quite well the reasons why this verdict could be easily nullified by the Cassazione. You make my point showing how the charges are linked and the verdict is contradictory. How can the there be innocence (or reasonable doubt, recall we don't know yet if its' 530.1 or 530.2) on murder, and no reasonable doubt she willfully falsely accused Lumumba. Good question. You have to put it to those judges who issued the verdict.
I'm sure the Supreme Court will put the same questions.


Wrong. You're looking at it all through an incorrectly-jaundiced lens. You're actually suggesting that if the court thinks Knox was guilty of criminal slander, this somehow implies that she cannot be acquitted of the other charges including the murder. You have no idea how wrong and warped this claim is. I now understand that you have scant knowledge of (and absolutely definitely no training in) the law.


Interesting, so you predict that the sentence will be nullified. You need to destroy the verdict in order to perform that operation that you wish; you must in fact nullify the whole sentencing report.
In practical terms, you are saying this verdict is rubbish. You need an entire new writing of the whole verdict in order to form a consistent document, this is what you say. And, you may not "destroy" a verdict on appeal in which the first instance was conviction, without repeating the appeal. Your claim requires an entire re-setting of the whole appeal. You seem to think you will "skip" this pesky passage and re-state a trial as a one charge standong alone trial. I think, instead, this will not be possible. The charges are knit togehter by continuation and you may not nullify half a document and approve pieces cut off with scissors from its text and from its logic. The Cassazione needs a correct sentencing report ready to be approved.
Moreover, all this process need an application by the defence to appeal against the verdict by the supreme court.


Wrong. The criminal slander charge can be separated from the other charges, and this is what will happen if the charge is successfully appealed at Supreme Court level.


In that regard, if her conviction is confirmed by the Cassazione, her three years will be considered served. I mean, precisely served, the sentence will not declares not suspended nor will be ordered to serve further years: she will be considered as having been justly detained for three of the four years and will be in fact asked to pay for her feeding and sheltering in prison.
By now, she can be called a person convicted for a felony in Italy. But there the point is about youf beliefs. If you already think she is innocent, you anticipate the conviction will be overturned. Otherwise she is just convicted by now.


Wrong. She is not convicted yet. And she has not been sentenced yet. You ought to know that. I wonder why you do not.

By the way, have you had any interesting one-to-ones (or should that be just "ones") with Giuseppe Castellini recently......?
 
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