Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

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leftysergeant said:
Capitalism is permissible in a rational society.
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A good chunk of the protestors disagree.

leftysergeant said:
The world lived quite well without capitalists before and can, for a brief period, do so again, if need be.
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When was this Golden Age?

leftysergeant said:
The unions are actually capable of running the factories, if it comes to that.
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Ahahahahaha! Eventually they'd strike against themselves, like United Airlines.
 
Ziggurat said:
No, actually, when you think about it, you realize that this is a copout to paper over the fact that these people have little to unify them beyond dissatisfaction with mainstream society. But let's pretend that it's the media's fault that we're incoherent.
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It's not very often that I agree with Ziggy, but when he nails it, he nails it.
 
Darth Rotor said:
What, you're a closet Catholic?
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Actually, I'm closer in most regards to Islam and the Baha'i Faith.

You are an advocate for Distributism?
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Not sure what you mean by that. A rational society would include some elements of socialism, but only as regards the ecconomny and providing social services.

The Mondragon collectives of Spain look like a good model by which to transition a country away from pure capitalism.
 
leftysergeant said:
The unions are actually capable of running the factories, if it comes to that.
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Really? If that's the case, if management is just there to oppress labor, why haven't the unions at Boeing started their own aerospace company? Full of wealth and innovation and productivity and competitiveness?

Why haven't the unions at Ford started their own motor corporation? Vouchsafing to the world true car manufacturing greatness?

Why haven't the unions started their own airline, with more legroom, better meals, and revenues that put the capitalist airlines to shame?

ETA: It's been done, of course. The Soviet Union had all these things. Soviet aerospace thrived only in so far as it was part of the Soviet military-industrial complex. Soviet automobile industry? India has a more prominent automotive industry than the Soviet Union! Soviet airlines? Aeroflot, anyone?
 
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I noticed tonight that people passing by the occupation were asking questions and the occupiers were answering them. Quite a concept there. What I overheard didn't surprise me, something about the unfairness of having to service debts that were created in bad faith by creditors with enough political clout to cover their own butts.

Some PSLers were there too, but I think they've totally missed the boat on this.
 
theprestige said:
Really? If that's the case, if management is just there to oppress labor, why haven't the unions at Boeing started their own aerospace company? Full of wealth and innovation and productivity and competitiveness?
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Because, as society is currently structured, it takes capital, and a staggering amount of it at that.
 
leftysergeant said:
Because, as society is currently structured, it takes capital, and a staggering amount of it at that.
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So as long as we're willing to live without cars, computers, cell phones, satellites, airplanes, MRI machines, etc etc we will have a worker's paradise?
 
They interviewed some of them on NPR the other day. One guy admitted they didn't have a cohesive message and he wasn't sure if they could have one considering the disparate groups that were there. He also acknowledged the irony of using large corporations like Verizon to get the message out and using the McDonalds to go to the bathroom.
 
John Stewart had a great quip about this the other day. There was a clip of some people in a drum circle at the protest, chanting "This is what democracy looks like!"

To which John Stewart replied, "To be fair, it's also what Bonnaroo looks like."
 
My understanding is that the protest started as a response to the bad behavior of the Wall Street banks that got us into the financial mess we're in now, required us to bail them out with taxpayer dollars, and yet don't seem to have changed their ways all that much (in some cases using our bailout money to give the responsible parties big bonuses).

I'm guessing that not everyone at these protests is against corporations or capitalism in general.

-Bri
 
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Bri said:
My understanding is that the protest started as a response to the bad behavior of the Wall Street banks that got us into the financial mess we're in now, required us to bail them out with taxpayer dollars, and yet don't seem to have changed their ways all that much (in some cases using our bailout money to give the responsible parties big bonuses).

I'm guessing that not everyone at these protests is against corporations or capitalism in general.

-Bri
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The problem is there is no message beyond "Wall Street bad!" So you have disparate groups who agree on that but disagree on what to do about it (regulation, dissalution, criminal trials, etc.) On top of that, you have fringe groups adding in unrelated demands such as legalizing marijuana or independance of Puerto Rico.
 
Ysidro said:
The problem is there is no message beyond "Wall Street bad!" So you have disparate groups who agree on that but disagree on what to do about it (regulation, dissalution, criminal trials, etc.) On top of that, you have fringe groups adding in unrelated demands such as legalizing marijuana or independance of Puerto Rico.
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Sure, but I don't think it's necessary for protestors to agree on a single solution to what they're protesting. Maybe they just want Congress to actually agree on a plan for making sure it doesn't happen again, which might include any of the above that you mentioned. Or maybe they want to send a message to those banks to stop the bad behavior.

-Bri
 
Turning into a public union rally now, oh well we'll get you next time Wall Street! (not really)

leftysergeant said:
Actually, they could use a few hundred union organizers to help them focus.
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Yeah, help them focus on public union issues maybe. Don't worry, they're way ahead of you on this one.
 
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