Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Grinder]

There's a quote button on the bottom of the box you're reading.

Find the post where I said they were taking a private jet, use that button and tell me I'm wrong.

Apologize when you can't find the quote.

Thanks.

Where did I say you posted about the private jet? I never did.

 

[Malkmus]

I look forward to an extremely detailed description from Amanda on the interrogation.

Now she can freely speak about it.

Same here!

I've actually been tinkering with a pet theory about the duration of the first half of the interrogation as a witness. We know the first statement was timed at 1:45, but wasn't Mignini not alerted until 3:30 or so? And then the second statement as a suspect at 5:45.

Is it possible that the 1:45 time is actually the time she started to "buckle under pressure"? Not when the interrogation ended? And that is when the interpreter started typing out the statement, but that it wasn't completed until 3:30? Then Mignini comes in, more browbeating until 5:45, and conclusion of the second statement later that morning?

In other words, heavy interrogation and questioning about the text message from approximately 11pm until 1:45. Then 1:45am to 3:30am is the "statement" portion where she succumbs to their version of what they think happened that night.

Maybe I'm just stating the obvious, and never realized this is how it went until now.

 

[Malkmus]

Comment From Guest
How strong was the evidence to support the theory of more than one killer?
2:16


BARBIE LATZA NADEAU:
Multiple autopsy reports pointed to more than one attacker.
2:16


Comment From Lisa
What evidence in the murder room convinces you that there were 3 attackers? Or are you convinced of that?
2:17


BARBIE LATZA NADEAU:
I studied the crime scene video and autopsy photos multiple times with a seasoned crime coroner who was persuasive in convincing me that there was more than one attacker based on her wounds and lack of defensive wounds.
2:17

Huh? I thought the defensive wounds were brought up last week? The cuts on her hands? No?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Nadeau on the mixed DNA

"Comment From Bruce Fisher
Do you continue to believe that there was mixed blood in the cottage?
2:37


BARBIE LATZA NADEAU:
There are mixed genetic traces in spots of blood in which Amanda's traces are higher than Meredith's. That implies mixed blood according to the dozens of forensics experts I've interviewed about this. Who have you interviewed?
2:38"
(highlighting mine)
I asked Professor Dan Krane, coauthor of a textbook on bioinformatics and president of a DNA profiling company. He said, "Inferring tissue source from peak heights is just plain silly -- to the point of being absolutely outrageous. It hardly bears more comment than that, but if high peaks mean blood then what would you expect from semen which has a ten to one hundred fold higher concentration of DNA?”

A question to Ms. Nadeau: Whom did you interview?

 

[smkovalinksy]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/04/amanda-knox-juror-speaks-out

One of the juror/Judges speaks... maybe this is already posted?

No, thanks for posting this!!

A member of the jury that overturned the convictions of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito for the murder of the British student Meredith Kercher told the Guardian the lack of a motive and errors made by forensic investigators fatally weakened the prosecution's case.

Fabio Angeletti, 40, a teacher from Terni, 55 miles south of Perugia, spoke as Knox flew back to the US and the prosecutor who led the investigation signalled he would seek to overturn the acquittals in Italy's top appeals court.

Celebrity publicist Max Clifford said the Seattle student, who spent four years in an Italian jail, could earn between £5m and £20m from her story. He suggested that she give some of the money to the Kerchers to avoid the impression she was profiting from the victim's death. The Kerchers, who were due to fly out of Italy on Tuesday night, expressed bewilderment and frustration at the outcome. Lyle Kercher, Meredith's brother, wanted to know "how a decision that was so certain two years ago has been so emphatically overturned now".

"As a father, I have a real feeling for the Kerchers' pain," said Angeletti. "But you need conclusive motives to condemn, as well as conclusive evidence. There were lots of mistakes by the forensic investigators that robbed the case of any certainty." Angeletti was one of six jurors – technically lay judges – who joined two professional judges in upholding the appeal of Knox and her Italian former boyfriend against their 26- and 25-year sentences for murdering Kercher in Perugia in November 2007. Angeletti declined to be drawn on details of the deliberations, but said he had focused more on the hard evidence in the "large number of documents" provided to the court than on the dramatic speeches made by Knox protesting her innocence.

 

[Bob001]

Change her name from Amanda to Andy, and make her a 40 something beer gut dude, and nobody cares about this story...

I think at least one reason that many of us have been interested in this case is that we have traveled in countries whose legal systems are very different from ours, and we wonder what it would be like to find ourselves -- or someone we cared about -- in Amanda's situation. Author Douglas Preston, a worldly, experienced, professional man, was intimidated by Mignini's threatening tactics, and he packed up his work and his family and left Italy the day after Mignini told him he was a criminal suspect in the "monster of Florence" business. What chance would a spacey 20-year-old coed have in the same circumstances? Amanda made some big mistakes. She should have left Italy the day Meredith was killed (and her parents should have demanded that she do so), she should have called the embassy for help, she should have gotten a lawyer, she shouldn't have talked to the police, she shouldn't have signed anything. But we could imagine ourselves making the same mistakes, especially if we hadn't done anything wrong and wanted to be cooperative. We may see ourselves in Amanda, and if Andy were some hapless American tourist locked up under the same circumstances, we would see ourselves in him too, maybe judging him a little more harshly for not using better sense.

 

[Justinian2]

Guede's lawyer is reportedly asking for a new trial.

I think that's a great idea!

I'm sure if Italy doesn't want to give him a new trial, then the great state of Texas would be more than willing...

 

[LondonJohn]

Comment From Guest
How strong was the evidence to support the theory of more than one killer?
2:16


BARBIE LATZA NADEAU:
Multiple autopsy reports pointed to more than one attacker.2:16


Comment From Lisa
What evidence in the murder room convinces you that there were 3 attackers? Or are you convinced of that?
2:17


BARBIE LATZA NADEAU:
I studied the crime scene video and autopsy photos multiple times with a seasoned crime coroner who was persuasive in convincing me that there was more than one attacker based on her wounds and lack of defensive wounds.2:17

Nadeau's responses in that webchat give a clear indication of two things: 1) she's ignorant and incapable of understanding this case properly; and 2) she's clearly in the palm of police and prosecutors.

In regard to the specific issue of the injuries found at autopsy and their indication as to the number of attackers, does Clouseau not know that the actual police pathologist who performed the autopsy on Meredith (Lalli) went so far as to explicitly state in his autopsy report the following opinion (my bolding):

He (Lalli) excluded, finally, that the biological data alone (i.e. autopsy findings) could indicate the presence and action of several people against the victim.

(Massei report, p116, English trans).

IIRC, Lalli repeated this in his trial testimony. The attack was consistent with one attacker or multiple attackers: neither option could be excluded by the autopsy findings alone.

It is pretty obvious that Clouseau was invited to view the autopsy video in the company of a prosecution-friendly pathologist (probably Bacci or Liviero), and that this person did a proper number on her to leave her miniature intellect convinced that the autopsy findings excluded the possibility of a lone attacker. She truly is an intellectual midget, and she doesn't even appear to realise how badly she's been played by Mignini and his minions.

Just as a closing thought on the injuries found at autopsy, many of us (and the defence lawyers themselves) have shown that the comparative lack of defensive wounds or fight-related wounds does not in any way indicate that Meredith must have been under the control of multiple assailants. It's entirely feasible (and, when considered alongside all the other evidence, actually highly likely) that Guede forced Meredith into submissive compliance through a combination of his physical size and strength, his wielding of a large knife, and his use of threatening body- and verbal-language. It's therefore entirely likely that Guede managed to manouevre Meredith into a position where she was on the ground and he had his knife at her throat, without any struggle, injuries or defensive wounds being inflicted. And once Meredith started to resist (which I think probably happened when Guede revealed his intention to sexually assault her), I think the knife wounds to the neck were inflicted immediately and rapidly. Therefore, it's entirely rational that Meredith was found without wounds related to a struggle: there never was any protracted struggle with Guede. The time between Meredith being passively compliant and her lying incapacitated from her neck wounds would have been horribly brief.

 

[icerat]

Shame it's on the BBC site though rather than Mail etc.

That BBC article is obscene. Most telling is this -

The evidence of Rudy Guede against Knox was also confusing. Guede, who is serving a prison sentence for sexual assault and murder, said that he heard her voice at the scene but didn't see her face.

He's serving "a" prison sentence for sexual assault and murder? Really? Not at all relevant that it was for this crime?

My opinion of the BBC has dropped dramatically as a result of it publishing this disgraceful article.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

photogenic principles

Gary who?
That's my point.

Was there absurd media coverage regarding the case of Gary Leiterman? I honestly can't recall the name.

No, there was not. However, not every case that (sometimes inexplicably) goes high-profile involves photogenic principals. Rolfe had a good example some time ago, and perhaps LashL did also.

 

[NoahFence]

Where did I say you posted about the private jet? I never did.

Wow. You have a pretty short memory. They make pills for that.


http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7641852&postcount=10273

 

[Onofarar]

I do not think the truth will be forthcoming from Guede, ever. (Just as it has not been forthcoming from many obviously guilty convicted criminals who hold to innocence for the duration, such as Pamela Smart. )

I think despite these coincidences you mention, the simplest theory, the most logical, is that Kercher lost her life for a silly reason: Guede thought he was burglarizing an empty cottage, with the students all away ; she surprised him, and he did what criminals are wont to do.

I agree absolutely. Plus, if he keeps his head down and his mouth shut he will be out by 2020. (Although they really should take away the six year "discount" for "remorse"!

 

[LondonJohn]

That BBC article is obscene. Most tellingis this -

The evidence of Rudy Guede against Knox was also confusing. Guede, who is serving a prison sentence for sexual assault and murder, said that he heard her voice at the scene but didn't see her face.

He's serving "a" prison sentence for sexual assault and murder? Really? Not at all relevant that it was for this crime?

My opinion of the BBC has dropped dramatically as a result of it publishing this disgraceful article.

I suspect that Johnson offered the article to the BBC on a freelance basis. And that the BBC accepted it for their online features section because a) Johnson had some demonstrable connection with the case, having co-authored a book on it, and b) the BBC wanted to pad up their case-related output, since they knew that lots of people would be looking for this sort of content in the interest spike after the acquittals.

It shows poor editorial judgement from whoever at the BBC agreed to buy this rubbish from Johnson, but it wasn't accorded any sort of prominence on the BBC website and should probably be viewed as no more than content padding.

 

[LondonJohn]

No, there was not. However, not every case that (sometimes inexplicably) goes high-profile involves photogenic principals. Rolfe had a good example some time ago, and perhaps LashL did also.

http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/15063432

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4446404.ece

Barry George: a singularly unattractive (in every way) middle-aged man, whose miscarriage of justice garnered massive media attention from his conviction in 2001 until his final acquittal on retrial in 2008 (at which time his case was totally dominating the UK media).

 

[Onofarar]

In addition to this, and not counter to it, there is something to be said for the old-fashioned idea of protecting young girls. Because they are weaker physically than males, and taking into account their status as objects of male sexual desire, when studying abroad:

to house them in safe, campus housing, with alarms on the windows, surveillance cameras, and security guard posts in lobbies, would go a long way in preventing this horrific and senseless situation in which poor Meredith Kercher unnecessarily lost her life.

There could still be plenty of soaking up Perugian charm, nightlife, cafes, etc.

I think UW let down Amanda Knox in many ways. A UW boycott of all Italian study broad campuses would have been good for a start.

Overall, academia did not have its finest hour here between UW's deafening silence on the case and Pepperdine firing Steve Moore (boy they paid plenty for that move). IIRC for their panel discussion FOA used a small aud at Seattle U instead of UW. I wonder why - hmm could it be they were told they were not welcome?

 

[misteratunta]

Grrrrrrr....


Comment From Susan
How can the multiple confessions, outside interrogation, at the behest of Amanda be reconciled?
2:26

BARBIE LATZA NADEAU: They can't.

 

[misteratunta]

Comment From Bruce Fisher
Do you continue to believe that there was mixed blood in the cottage?

2:37

BARBIE LATZA NADEAU: There are mixed genetic traces in spots of blood in which Amanda's traces are higher than Meredith's. That implies mixed blood according to the dozens of forensics experts I've interviewed about this. Who have you interviewed?

She definitely softened for a few weeks, but I guess she realised there would be no more money in it for her unless she readopted her original stance

 

[Onofarar]

Hi Mike,
Just wanted to explain that Amanda incriminated herself, as well as incriminating Lumumba in the 'confession'.

That she knowingly accused Lumumba is precisely what's in question here. If Amanda's accounts of the interrogation are true then she was giving what Dr Saul Kassin terms a 'internalised false confession'. This is where the 'confessor' believes at the time that the statements are, or could be true.
By the time of the interrogation, they already suspected Patrick, and were questioning her about him specifically (now imagine you're being questioned as a 'witness' and you know you didn't commit the crime, and the police are focussing in on one person. Wouldn't you think they had reason to, that the person probably had something to do with it?)
According to accounts of the interrogation, the 'interpreter' and the police convinced Amanda that her memories of the night of the murder were unreliable and that she had repressed memories due to trauma. (Partly by talking to her about the phenomenon of repressed memories and partly by lying that they had solid evidence placing her at the scene).
They then asked her to imagine what she might have seen / heard if she were in the cottage, and she confabulates the Patrick 'info', with the nightmares she was no-doubt having in the wake of her housemate's brutal murder, and voila, you have a false confession / accusation.
In terms of Amanda's state of mind during the interrogation, it's a matter of record that there were 12 police involved. A senior policeman in another room says he heard her screaming during the interrogation. It was night. They denied her access to a lawyer. It's possible they denied her bathroom breaks. It's all classic coercion. Thus she did not knowingly accuse an innocent man. Really, by definition, she could not have- she was not at the scene and therefore could not know that Patrick wasn't there.

There is no mens rea here, and therefore the slander conviction is unjust.

Good point about mens rea bri1 - however, is mens rea just a common law concept or is it a pillar of the justice sytem in a civil law country such as Italy as well.

BTW - Love your posts.

 

[Onofarar]

Any comments on this...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15157384

In particular I don't quite understand point 9.

Well if that is a typical example of the case coverage provied by the British TV and Radio equivalent to the NY Times; it is no wonder the Kerchers are stunned at the appeal verdict and totally confused about the case and who actually committed the murder.

 

[Antony]

Loved this piece from the Guardian: Amanda Knox freed after four years in case that has no winners

Waiting for her in jail was Rocco Girlanda, an Italian MP who has campaigned for her release and who said Knox and her family would spend the night in Rome before taking a scheduled flight back to Seattle on Tuesday.

"She was beside herself with joy and there was a huge cheer when she returned to the prison, an ovation from every cell," he told journalists outside the jail minutes after Knox had sped off into the night in a black Mercedes laid on by Girlanda, on her way to meet her parents at an undisclosed location before driving to Rome.

"Everyone was shouting 'Libera, libera.' It was like being in a football stadium and was something I will never forget. Amanda saluted the other prisoners with a timid wave – she didn't really know how to react."

Prison inmates know better than anyone when the courts have got it wrong.