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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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bri1 said:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220937

Nice to see the other JREF-ers are being as warm and welcoming as usual. Ugh.
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I followed your link and see what you mean. It is too bad. This forum could be a "point of light" where many injustices could be unearthed and pulled from the dust bin they are buried in and exposed to the light of day.

There is a lot of brainpower here several of the posters here are quite bright and could do this forum a lot of good.

I think the problem is what I described responding to my co-favorite troll - Cental Scrut (Lothian is the other co-fav). This was the sandbox of an eclectic group of posters many whom think they are the most skeptical people in the universe. Thye resent our intrusion into their little world and wish we would go away so they can go back to their little gotcha games.

BTW - I noticed several comments about how Fiona was run-off from JREF by some posters here. My foremost recollection of Fiona was her totally obtuse argument with Halides when he was referring to the work of Jason Gildur to support his position on the inadequacy of the DNA evidence. Fiona was fixated on Gildur's education background in his resume as a computer programmer. Her implied (and stated) argument being what could a programmer know about DNA. Ignoring the well known fact that many (most?) of us end up in fields far from our college specialty, and further ignores the well known concept that we learn as much or more during our actual career than we ever learned in college (most of the most valuable college learning is social anyway). To me, she came across as close-minded and so invested in her view that nothing could change her mind. It came as no surprise to me tht she left for PMF where she was embraced by others with a similar intellect.
 
LondonJohn said:
Why will the verdict be appealed "clearly"? And upon what grounds? (I'm making the perhaps-optimistic presumption here that you understand what kind of things constitute grounds for appeal to the Supreme Court...).

ETA: Actually, reading your post again, I don't think you actually do understand the required grounds for appeal to the Supreme Court, do you?
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I understand it. The decision of the Hellmann court will be appealed on ground of errors in it, as in all appeals.
If the appeal successful, it will be sent back to an appeal court for a retrial.
That's where the prosecutors has to convince another court and that's where they need a better argued case.
 
LondonJohn said:
Why will the verdict be appealed "clearly"? And upon what grounds?
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Well, I'm not bolint but, as I posted some time ago, Mignini has said that he will claim the entire C-V report should be ruled inadmissible because it was requested after the time limit for doing so had expired. Now, I don't think that argument will succeed, but I'm sure he'll try it, as long as he's still licensed to put people in cells instead of being put in one himself (preferably padded). If he's disbarred (or whatever they call it in Italy), I'd be surprised if a new prosecutor decides to appeal at all, although maybe the image of the rent-a-mob after the verdict was declared might convince any Mignini successor that he or she might themselves be confronted with such a mob, unless they make at least a cursory effort to Defend Perugia's Honor by appealing.
 
Teddy2007 said:
Any prosecutor of sane mind would avoid taking on the prosecution's case with a barge pole.
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Speaking of barges I think the Perugian authorities would do best to put the case and the related evience(?) they have left on said barge and sink it in the Tiber next to the (former) DNA evidence. Maye they could put the main conspirators - Mignini, Gibbio, Napoleoni, <Dr Steffi amd Mauela (Flush The) Comodi on the barge too. :D:D
 
bolint said:
I understand it. The decision of the Hellmann court will be appealed on ground of errors in it, as in all appeals.
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Does that qualify as a "non-answer answer?" ;)

I think the point was that, under Italian law, any case appealed to the Supreme Court can only be done through procedural errors in the previous trial. Might you be able to name any procedural errors that strike you as worthy of overturning the result of this past appeal?
 
DarkStar2011 said:
Well, I'm not bolint but, as I posted some time ago, Mignini has said that he will claim the entire C-V report should be ruled inadmissible because it was requested after the time limit for doing so had expired. Now, I don't think that argument will succeed, but I'm sure he'll try it, as long as he's still licensed to put people in cells instead of being put in one himself (preferably padded). If he's disbarred (or whatever they call it in Italy), I'd be surprised if a new prosecutor decides to appeal at all, although maybe the image of the rent-a-mob after the verdict was declared might convince any Mignini successor that he or she might themselves be confronted with such a mob, unless they make at least a cursory effort to Defend Perugia's Honor by appealing.
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I think come what may, "cat has mewed and dog has had his day"---it is over. Finished. Done.
 
Firstly, congratulations to AK and RS.
Secondly, many thanks to all those who researched the various topics
Lastly, I have a few questions as a result of the acquittal verdict: discussed here

1) Are there double jeopardy laws in Italy?
2) Who initiates charges of perjury?
3) Can Stefanoni et al. be charged with perjury, withholding evidence, obstruction of justice?
4) What will happen with the calunnia changes against Amanda?
5) Can AK appeal to the SC about the guilty verdict of slander?
 
Onofarar said:
Was that CDV who came around from the left rear of Amanda to block the view of Amanda? Look for man in suit with white shirt and red tie.
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___________________

Onofarar,

Nope, one of several US Secret Service agents---from the US embassy-- there to provide security for Amanda. Blocking view of Amanda was doing his job.

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http://news.yahoo.com/disappointed-kerchers-look-answers-knox-freed-090936961.html

"Stephanie Kercher, Meredith's sister, said they would first wait for the court's written explanation of Monday's verdict.

"Once we've got the reasons behind the decisions for this one, then we can understand why they have been acquitted of it and work toward finding those who are responsible," she told a news conference."
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Unfortunately, in the end, I think Guede is the sole culprit, and he has already been convicted and imprisoned.
 
snook1 said:
Amanda at the airport. So great to see her smile.

http://www.daylife.com/search?q=amanda+knox
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Good pics.

She was escorted by plain clothes Italian policemen.

Her father Kurt Knox and mother Edda Mellas declined to talk to reporters as they were escorted through the airport by plainclothes Italian police officers. They were accompanied by their spouses and children, but Amanda herself was spared the public check-in process and met up with her family on the flight.
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Also:

http://www.daylife.com/article/04U0aEo9L48Ei?q=amanda+knox

Bosses at the Lifetime TV network have now confirmed Panettiere's film will be changed to incorporate the result of the appeal ahead of a planned U.S. broadcast on Tuesday, according to the Los Angeles Times.
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Conscience problems? Or profiteering?
 
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Fine said:
___________________

Onofarar,

Nope, one of several US Secret Service agents---from the US embassy-- there to provide security for Amanda. Blocking view of Amanda was doing his job.

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Thanks Fine, I thought it a little unusual for him to be there but then not sure he was based in Perugia or closer to Rome.

CDV proved to be a fast learner versus the bumbler in the first trial - I wonder how many hours he spent with Ted Simon getting up to speed on criminal litigation techniques?
 
snook1 said:
Amanda at the airport. So great to see her smile.

http://www.daylife.com/search?q=amanda+knox
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Wow, it sure is; thanks for posting!!!:D

610x.jpg


Here is another, from the Reuters site:
http://www.daylife.com/photo/0fJuc8H9um9oI?q=amanda+knox



0fJuc8H9um9oI
 
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DarkStar2011 said:
Does that qualify as a "non-answer answer?" ;)

I think the point was that, under Italian law, any case appealed to the Supreme Court can only be done through procedural errors in the previous trial. Might you be able to name any procedural errors that strike you as worthy of overturning the result of this past appeal?
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Anyone who thinks that there may not be appeal listen to Mignini in yesterday's Porta a Porta show (at aound 38 min. in the video).
He says it surely will be appealed.
http://www.rai.tv/dl/RaiTV/programmi/media/ContentItem-4eb31be0-b058-48f9-b272-2416c155440d.html

Earlier in the video Bongiorno when questioned about the appeal says that they are confident that it will confirm their case.

That there will be appeal is a foregone conclusion, once you will understand it. :)

We'll see if it is successful or not.

But I never said it would surely be successful. I even said that if the prosecutors continue their old ways it may not be enough to win this case again.
(as Talleyrand said on the Bourbons: Rien appris, rien oublié).
 
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LondonJohn said:
Nope, you definitely don't understand the basis of appeals to the Supreme Court.

Try reading these before you make your next post on this topic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_of_Cassation_(Italy)

http://lawfirmitaly.org/Italian_juridical_system.html

http://www.bbitaliantranslation.com/judicial-system-in-italy.html
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You'll see.

PS.
Also, as a bonus for you, in the Porta a Porta interview linked above Mignini specifically says that it is not known if the acquittal was based on 503.1 or 530.2 :D
 
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js202 said:
The truth is that the guilter mentality is equipped neither for a proper "gut" or instinctual understanding, nor, certainly, rationality. The rabbit hole analogy is best. *Everything* -- every intellectual skill set, it seems -- is upside down. One can only assume that, with a nod to Darwin, the possessors of such mentality are methodically being weeded from the species in real time.
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:rolleyes:

And is coining a derogatory name for people with opinions that differ from yours the best way to demonstrate your rationality?

To play devil's advocate for a moment, I think there were valid reasons to doubt that Knox was as innocent as her supporters claim. This is a woman, after all, who didn't hesitate to implicate an innocent man in this brutal crime. But her supporters make it sound like she couldn't conceivably have done anything differently, or offered a consistent alibi throughout the interrogations and investigations, because the overzealous Italian police virtually forced her to blame Lumumba and change her story whenever she found it necessary.

Does that make her guilty? Of course not. But it doesn't make suspicion of Knox something freakish and inexcusable.

-Mike
 
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