Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[LondonJohn]

PS: I suspect the media have figured this out already, but if the ANSA report about a flight to London is correct, it's almost certain that Knox will be taking the BA0049 15.15 direct flight from Heathrow to Seattle. I bet that flight is booked out already.....

 

[Keeper]

1) No, unfortunately the Kerchers remain sadly deluded. The Hellmann motivation report will almost certainly state that in their opinion only one knife was used.

2) Sky News is currently reporting an ANSA wire report that Knox and her family are at Rome airport awaiting a commercial flight to London (and presumably onward from there to Seattle). I wonder if I should head out to Heathrow to offer them a coffee.......?

They're from Seattle mate. Heathrow Starbucks may just not cut the mustard

 

[charlatan]

PS: I suspect the media have figured this out already, but if the ANSA report about a flight to London is correct, it's almost certain that Knox will be taking the BA0049 15.15 direct flight from Heathrow to Seattle. I bet that flight is booked out already.....

Surely you jest. According to ultra-reliable sources Amanda is flying back home in a hypersonic spaceplane made of platinum.

 

[mdana]

Tonight on ABC Nightline, their legal analyst, of all people, talked about how "this all may have started with Amanda's own words." I muted the TV but turned the sound back on to hear Terry Moran say, "In other words, she may have brought it on herself."

I heard similar on Anderson Cooper 360 and another show on HLN or Fox. Basically, you should expect to spend a few years in jail for not acting in accordance to some unspoken societal requirement for decorum. They made comments that placed some of the blame for the case on the acquitted (AK), little of shoddy police work or an unhinged prosecution, at least on those two specific segments. So, what was RS's sin?

There was better work on most cable segments, but almost no mention of RS.

 

[LondonJohn]

Here's an interesting thing. Yummi (AKA Machiavelli) is an Italian pro-guilt commentator who spent time at the appeal trial. He just made a fascinating claim on .org about the interaction between Mignini and Zanetti (the deputy judge in the appeal). He claims that he heard the following exchange during the appeal trial:

I heared Mignini talking to him (Zanetti) during the trial saying: "we have been knowing each other for so many years, what happens? why did you say this?".

If Yummi is accurate in this, it means that Mignini was implying that his friendship with Zanetti should have to some degree influenced the way in which Zanetti ruled in the appeal trial. We can add this to the list of Mignini impropriety.

 

[mdana]

Surely you jest. According to ultra-reliable sources Amanda is flying back home in a hypersonic spaceplane made of platinum.

I am surprised they didn't go with a broom. I guess they finally started to moderate their propaganda.

 

[LondonJohn]

Surely you jest. According to ultra-reliable sources Amanda is flying back home in a hypersonic spaceplane made of platinum.

Sky News has just carried video of the family (but no capture of Amanda) queuing at check-in at Rome Fiumicino airport. It appears to be confirmed that they are flying to LHR to connect to a flight to Seattle.

The irony of course is that a private jet would have been the quickest and easiest way for Knox and her family to have got back to Seattle. There are no direct flights between any airport in Italy and Seattle, and a private jet could have flown direct from Perugia Sant'Egidio airport to Seattle. A flight plan could almost certainly have been filed late last night, and the flight could have taken off before midnight. Had that happened, Knox and her family would have been in Seattle within around four hours from now. Instead, they had to travel from Perugia to Rome, spend a night in Rome, fly to London, then wait for a connection for a flight to Seattle.

And of course when you add everything up (8 x hotels, 8 x flights to London (almost certainly at full fare), 8 x LHR-SEA flights (almost certainly at full fare)), the added irony is that there would probably not have been a big cost differential between that and chartering a private plane for 8 passengers.

 

[mdana]

I find Yummi's PMF comment on the upheld calunnia conviction very interesting:





Indeed, and I've seen London John raise the same question here. It doesn't add up at all. I think this a thing no one on either side can understand and only Lumumba and his lawyer are happy about. In other words: It smells of a very bad compromise. Or is there more to it? Frank Sfarzo seems to suggest that the Hellmann court deliberately is leaving this decision to be overturned by the Supreme court.

There is no motive and there can be no intent to commit a crime of calunnia if Knox is not guilty. So how on earth can they motivate such a sentence?

Yummi is just in a denial spiral and clinging to anything to support his collapsing world view. I think Frank is right and this was inflated to be overturned on appeal. I also think it was a maneuver to save face for Italy and Hellman to show he was not completely disrespecting the original judge. Or as you put it a "bad compromise."

 

[LondonJohn]

I wonder whom Deanna Knox was referring to in this part of the statement she made on the courtroom steps just after the acquittals were announced:

We are thankful for all the support we have received from all over the world – people who took the time to research the case and could see that Amanda and Raffaele were innocent.

 

[mdana]

From PMF:Guess there's a bit too much heat in the kitchen for them.


OTOH, I guess they are being hit with a flood of new commenters. But there is a preponderance of confirmation bias there.

I think they are running out of money, Skeptical Bystander made a few pleas for donations as being "the best way to honor Meredith's memory" or something akin to that sentiment.

 

[LondonJohn]

In this video the reporter said Mignini exited the building and tried to make a statement but was jeered ("shouted down"). I really hope that was true. He is an absolute scumbag and complete buffoon.

You can actually hear Mignini's voice as he tries to speak (his actual words are indecipherable, but his voice is recognisable). He was absolutely definitely jeered and shouted down by a large section of the crowd.

But anyhow, trying to draw rational or intelligent inferences from the reactions of the mob is ridiculous (which is probably why the pro-guilt idiots are desperately trying to do just that). Remember that pretty much everyone who had taken the trouble to congregate in the scrum outside the courthouse had some sort of agenda. I suspect that most of those who were hoping for acquittals were cognisant of the fact that wild celebrations were inappropriate and distasteful. It appears that those who were pro-guilt were not similarly encumbered by dignity or respect. Either way, the reactions of the crowd outside the courthouse are utterly meaningless in terms of a rational analysis of the situation and outcome.

 

[Teddy2007]

I'm confused. The machine said he had inside sources telling him of an upheld convinction with maybe reduced sentence? How can he be wrong?

Thanks to you LondonJohn for always being optimistic about the verdict - it really helped me stay focussed on what the real issues were. I really did fear another mistrial.

So, the convicted murderers innocent Amanda and Raffaele are now on their way home. In a way it's a pity they had to be whisked off so quickly without so much as a hug.

I really do look forward to the motivations report. Despite the joy of last night, it was tinged with frustration at the local Perugian hooligan mob, and after that I watched Porta a Porta that was shamefully on the guilt side. How can a Pyschologist repeat the same old false-logic "I'd be worried if any daughter of mine went out and bought underwear after a murder", with nobody to contradict him. The local journalist (sic) that brought us Quintavalle was also there spewing his usual lies about footprints. The Kerchers appeared and were shell-shocked. I felt sorry for them, seeing their reaction in the court, they are totally confused as to how this could have happened; they really need to seek advice and get a better lawyer if they want to make sense out of all of this.

It ain't over till it's over... (who said that again?). Oops, sorry, is that gloating?

 

[Teddy2007]

Another point about the journalist that brought us Quintavalle, on the Porta a Porta show, while lamenting Amanda's fingering of Lumumba, he basically said "If Lumumba hadn't been able to provide those alibis, he'd still be in prison today, 4 years later". Well, if you really think that, what does that say about Mignini and the Perugian justice system?

 

[Fine]

Speaking of the riff raff in the street outside the courthouse, several Italian news sources identify some of those howling protestations as members of the servizio d'ordine della Digos di Perugia, which ---somehow--- means they are cops. (See HERE) What the heck is the servizio d'ordine della Digos di Perugia? A fraternal organization of cops?

///

 

[charlatan]

It's aggravating that many in the media are indulging this notion that what happened on the night of the murder is now a complete mystery. You'd think they'd at least hint there is a plausible alternate explanation of the crime involving that other guy who pops up in that same canned paragraph at the bottom of every article.

 

[Kaosium]

I agree with that. Since they are legally innocent (and probably factually, but I'm not willing to commit that far on a matter I only know tangibly..), I am glad to see they're free of jail, and hopefully (if they have any logical sense!) out of Italy. Extradition is a bit of a pain after all, since the prosecutor has a bee in his bonnet..

It might be impossible to extradite them from the United States due to the 'probable cause' clause. They might even have trouble getting a EAW served in some countries, the UK for instance has refused Italian EAWs before. The Italian Justice System kinda has a...reputation in certain quarters.

.... And now you go off the rails. No, they don't. (Hell, a few even said the court had found them innocent and accepted it.). Also, beyond vile? Emotionally charged langauge for the win, and I believe there's something about becoming your enemy in that too.

You know, the member of this forum who found herself smeared throughout the ether, who was stalked from site to site, whose husband lost her job, and who has had three attempts to lure her children out with 'crank' calls would tend to disagree with your assessment, when she gets back from Perugia perhaps she'll tell her yourself.

Kevin they tracked down where they thought he worked, disseminated it throughout the ether, took the picture they thought was his and put it on an old avatar of his that said something like 'The Face of Evil, Kevin's Thrill Kill Kult.' They did this repeatedly over the course of months, not a one day ordeal.

So, no. Gloating just makes you like them. (Although, after reading some of the comments there, I just kinda blankly stared at them. Amanda bought her way out? Will commit again? Travesty like Casey Anthony, which was only a huge deal because of the media? Seriously guys?)

There's also a comedy element.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Platitudes will get you anywhere.

Actually, I'm curious as to what you were referring to in the first place. The forum basically went down for an hour or so around the time of the verdict (sorry!) thus there wasn't much chance to do much 'gloating.' Actually today they were awfully muted as well. At any rate it's not like there was any blow up today, thus your admonition strikes me as curious. I recall about twenty pages of posts, one person new to the thread got a yellow card and an edit so fast I never saw what they were naughty for despite frequent updating, otherwise there was a lot of posting without incident. Were you expecting a stronger reaction in this thread or did just the volume of posts draw your attention?

However, isn't there something of a false equivalency between torturing a squirrel and being happy the squirrel got away from the torturer? Isn't there a distinction to be drawn between being happy that two innocents go free and those who condemned them prematurely distraught, and actively working to see that two innocent people spend up to thirty years in a steel box?

There's a way to determine with facts that reasonable doubt exists in this case. Hell, one can approach the threshold of them being innocent beyond a reasonable doubt. The Hellmann Court itself didn't limit itself to merely establishing that reasonable doubt existed, it went for the exoneration code of paragraph one, section 530.

That factor weighs in on the discussion. It really makes people wonder.

Look, if PMF disgusts you, don't look. That bloody simple.

That's actually excellent advice, however the ire generated that you responded to was actually mostly towards media and peripheral players in the case.

 

[LondonJohn]

Just to be completely clear on the ruling that Hellmann delivered last night:

Article 530 of the Italian criminal code explicitly states that if the verdict is acquittal, the judicial panel can acquit either because of insufficient evidence, or because their conclusion is that the defendant(s) did not commit the crime(s), or because their conclusion is that the crimes themselves did not occur.

In this instance, Hellmann's judicial panel ruled very specifically that Knox and Sollecito were acquitted of the charges A (the murder itself, with sexual aggravation), B (the transportation of the kitchen knife), C (the sexual assault) and D (the theft) on the grounds that Knox and Sollecito did not commit these crimes. And it ruled that Knox/Sollecito were acquitted of charge E (the simulation of the break-in etc) because that crime was not committed by anyone, and did not therefore exist (that last one was a good spot by Rolfe last night - it was almost impossible to hear Hellmann make this part of the ruling in court due to the hullabaloo that broke out after the A, B, C, D acquittals were announced).

Therefore, nobody should be in any doubt whatsoever that in the view of Hellmann's court, this was categorically not a case of simple reasonable doubt. Rather, his court came to the conclusion that Knox and Sollecito had had nothing at all to do with the murder of Meredith Kercher. Hellmann's court is correct and justified in coming to that conclusion.

 

[Kaosium]

Speaking of the riff raff in the street outside the courthouse, several Italian news sources identify those howling protestations as members of the servizio d'ordine della Digos di Perugia, which ---somehow--- means they are cops. (See HERE) What the heck is the servizio d'ordine della Digos di Perugia? A fraternal organization of cops?

///

Is that the police union maybe? As I recall there's two (big ones at least) in Italy, and they play an important role in Italian Law Enforcement that I don't think has much of a parallel in the US. One of them might have borne the acronym 'SDD' if I recall correctly.

That would be an interesting development if it turned out the cops were the ones jeering the lawyers and perhaps even Mignini himself....

 

[ForTruth]

In my observation, it seemed once they were acquitted, Amanda was quickly dragged aggressively out of the courtroom. I wasn't sure why they didn't let her hug her family. You do get to see Raffaele hug his father.
I wasn't sure if this was a hostile act by the police. In fact it was two male guards that instigated the dragging, and the female guards (that usually escort her) are seen running after to catch up. That was very strange to me. Just curious if there would be a good reason (rather than my assumption of hostility) -- perhaps because she was having such an emotional outpouring?

Also I love the shot the Bongiorno as you can see the relief it hit her.

 

[mdana]

I haven't seen Green Acres in over 2 decades, but doesn't Perugia come across like Hooterville?

Oliver Wendell Douglas (Wants to experience the backwater finds out he doesn't really fit)-RS
Lisa Douglas (glamorous immigrant who fits in better than her partner)-AK

Mr. Haney (Con Man always selling something worthless)-Maresca
Hank Kimball (Scatterbrained and educated beyond his intelligence)-Mignini
Arnold Ziffel (He is a pig but no one seems to recognize it)-Rudy Guede
The Monroe brothers (Carpenters played by a male & female who promise more than they can deliver and the few times they finish a project it is a disaster) -Comodi and Stefanoni

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Acres