So what regulations do we ditch?

[JoeTheJuggler]

It was that the reporting requirement went from at least 1000 lbs to 50 lbs. And so after talking to them and told we did not need to be concerned there was no notice that the requirements changed and we got hit with a massive fine.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

And again, the company wasn't fined for abiding violating the new requirements before the new requirements went into effect (see above re ex post facto laws). The requirements changed, and your company failed to abide by the new requirements.

Maybe the company needs a legal advisor or someone to keep them informed of current requirements. It's certainly their burden and no one else's.

 

[Travis]

They lose to competitors who hire based on competence.

There are no competitors. Every single business is refusing to hire this minority. And banks won't give them loans to start their own no matter how awesome their business model is.

What do they do then?

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

There are no competitors. Every single business is refusing to hire this minority. And banks won't give them loans to start their own no matter how awesome their business model is. What do they do then?

Now that's a fantasy world. In that fantasy world, life would suck, and people would even then be foolish to look to the State for help. The State responds to influential groups, and the minority in this scenario hardly qualifies.

 

[I Ratant]

Seems like an odd inclusion. Do anti-discrimination laws kill jobs?

.
As with any regulation, "zero tolerance" application of the code leads to abuse of the intent.
One of my buddies wondered why blacks avoid work. (He says he's not a racist.)
The first site I went to that had statistics on "race" and the work force showed a higher percentage work-capable whites avoid working than blacks.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

That may happen in some fantacy world of yours, in reality there is no big difference in competence. Anyone can say "do you want fries with that".

No difference in competence? That's a fantasy world. Not everyone shows up on time every day and looks for light work when the heavy work is done. There's a continuum from resentful slug to cheerful go-getter. Managers notice.

What does all these unique individuals you mentioned above do when faced with the same standard contracts from all employers, all with next to no rights, and a starvation wage?

It might be the socialist dream to create this leveled world, but it does not exist anywhere, yet. In the real world, people assess their options and choose the best available. You learn from more experienced co-workers and burnish your reputation as a reliable worker. I have worked routine minimum-wage jobs (end of the line in the cannery). It was good exercise and demanded so little thought that I could memorize poetry or study math (go over the proofs in my head) while I worked.

 

[Bikewer]

It seems to be notion among the Libertarian-oriented that a kind of business Darwinian Evolution will take place in the lack of regulation. That businesses that say...Manufacture defective products or engage in discriminatory hiring practices or just engage in outright fraud will eventually be put out of business and...Problem solved.

The problem with this idea is the degree of human misery and the amount of damage that might be incurred before the situation is corrected.
Witness Enron, which nearly bankrupted the state of California, put thousands out of work, caused thousands more to loose pensions and savings....And only finally put out of business by investigators pursuing existing laws and regulations.
Or, more recently, the melamine-in-the-pet-food thing from China, which resulted in the deaths and sickening of thousands of beloved critters. Or... The Chinese drywall scandal which likewise caused millions of dollars in damage as defective products had to be ripped out and replaced and damaged appliances and such replaced.
That's just a few, and all in an atmosphere where regulatory features were in place and were actually used to shut down the illegal operations.

With little or no regulation, how much harm would result before such people were shut down? That's not even going into the sorry history of labor vs. management....

 

[Toke]

No difference in competence? That's a fantasy world. Not everyone shows up on time every day and looks for light work when the heavy work is done. There's a continuum from resentful slug to cheerful go-getter. Managers notice. It might be the socialist dream to create this leveled world, but it does not exist anywhere, yet. In the real world, people assess their options and choose the best available. You learn from more experienced co-workers and burnish your reputation as a reliable worker. I have worked routine minimum-wage jobs (end of the line in the cannery). It was good exercise and demanded so little thought that I could memorize poetry or study math (go over the proofs in my head) while I worked.

Could you elaborate on how your (presumed) excellence in canning served you with regards to individual contract negotiation and promotion to foreman/plant manager?

And no the dead end standard job is not of a socialist dream world, it is reality right now.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Could you elaborate on how your (presumed) excellence in canning served you with regards to individual contract negotiation and promotion to foreman/plant manager?

"End of the line" meant the warehouse. I loaded forklift pallets with cases of cans. That's why it was good exercise. On a busy 12-hour day each laborer would move about 40 tons of material. Lots of industries promote from within. As older managers retire, people move up, from the lowest level to more responsible positions as they demonstrate reliability and their work ethic. Cooks often start as dishwashers and end up owning their own restaurants. Mechanics open their own repair shops. Before that, their bosses pay them to stick around. Happens all the time.

And no the dead end standard job is not of a socialist dream world, it is reality right now.

For some, to be sure. This is part self-hypnosis and part self-fulling prophecy: the more people bitch on the job, the less likely their employers are to promote them.

 

[leftysergeant]

Now that's a fantasy world. In that fantasy world, life would suck, and people would even then be foolish to look to the State for help. The State responds to influential groups, and the minority in this scenario hardly qualifies.

Bull flops. That was what the situation was in 1960. You never heard of "Red Lining" I would guess.

If you think that the investor class wants to expand openings for previously excluded populations to get into the game on an equal footing, you are living in a fantasy world.

 

[Toke]

Malcolm Kirkpatrick,

I don't see any mentioning of the individual contract negotiation for the plant workers.
How come?
Why can't the individual worker stand up to the company?

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Bull flops.

Someone else left his manners in the dryer.

That was what the situation was in 1960. You never heard of "Red Lining" I would guess.

"Red lining" was not about employment, but about home loans. The study that claimed racial discrimination on the basis of loan approval rates by locale fell apart. Banks used race-neutral criteria that discriminated by expected repayment (as they should). Here.

Thomas Sowell's new column: "It so happens that whites were turned down for mortgage loans at a higher rate than Asian Americans, but that fact seldom made it into the newspaper headlines or the political rhetoric. Nor did either the mainstream media or political leaders mention the fact that black-owned banks turned down black mortgage loan applicants at least as often as white-owned banks did."

Furthermore, the default rate was higher for blacks. If banks had been setting more stringent loan requirements for blacks than for whites, that woud not have happened.

If you think that the investor class wants to expand openings for previously excluded populations to get into the game on an equal footing, you are living in a fantasy world.

What "investor class"? Everyone with a pension is an investor. What do you imagine pension funds do with their money; stuff it in a mattress?

 

[tyr_13]

It seems to be notion among the Libertarian-oriented that a kind of business Darwinian Evolution will take place in the lack of regulation. That businesses that say...Manufacture defective products or engage in discriminatory hiring practices or just engage in outright fraud will eventually be put out of business and...Problem solved.

The problem with this idea is the degree of human misery and the amount of damage that might be incurred before the situation is corrected.
Witness Enron, which nearly bankrupted the state of California, put thousands out of work, caused thousands more to loose pensions and savings....And only finally put out of business by investigators pursuing existing laws and regulations.
Or, more recently, the melamine-in-the-pet-food thing from China, which resulted in the deaths and sickening of thousands of beloved critters. Or... The Chinese drywall scandal which likewise caused millions of dollars in damage as defective products had to be ripped out and replaced and damaged appliances and such replaced.
That's just a few, and all in an atmosphere where regulatory features were in place and were actually used to shut down the illegal operations.

With little or no regulation, how much harm would result before such people were shut down? That's not even going into the sorry history of labor vs. management....

Then of course are the banks who basically cut their own throats to get some quick profits. They would have lost everything if not for intervention. Regulation is the only thing we have when dealing with a hyper-competition or hyper-capitalistic mindset. Those frames of mind abandon reason and responsibility just to 'win'.

 

[leftysergeant]

Someone else left his manners in the dryer.

Yeah, I get testy with people who post utter garbage and expect me to buy into it. Some ideas need to be dismissed in a kurt manner. Just about anything out the mouth of a believer in Friedman's blather, for instance.

Furthermore, the default rate was higher for blacks.

They do tend to suffer the most when corporations start wrong-sizing and off-shoring. Where's the surprise?

If banks had been setting more stringent loan requirements for blacks than for whites, that woud not have happened.

Right, because then it would be ignorant red necks who fell for the deregulated financial market's crap who would be most in default and a lot of black people who actually met reasonable criteria would be renters for life. You are making excuses for racism. I won't let that slide.

What "investor class"? Everyone with a pension is an investor.

Horse hockey. A man workiong for peanuts on an assembly line, thinking that he is going to have an income stream adequate to meet his needs in his declining years has nothing in common with an idiot who buys companies up and ships their physical plant off to Vietnam and then whines that he should bring his capital gains back into the country tax free. The assembly line worker has nothing in common with the fat slug who does nothing else than play games with other people's money. An assembly line worker has nothing in common with the worthless maggots who invented securitized mortgages and encouraged the banks to make loans they knew they wouldn't collect because they knew they could sell them to some yutz who thought they were a safe investment. Get real. What is good for the investor class hurts people who actually make stuff of value. Abnd, if the company controls the retirement funds, count on its being in financial instruments that have no tangiblle products associated with them. More often than not, the pensiuon funds are used to capitalize an off-shore operation. And, if they get a really greedy lot managing the company, they can go bankrupt and wipe out their obligation to pay anything on the pensions. It happens a lot these days.

What do you imagine pension funds do with their money; stuff it in a mattress?

What the CEO doesn't stuff up his nose is usually put into something that produces no jobs here, or maybe a few in China. Unless the trust fund is in union hands, don't count on workers' seeing a dime of it when the capitalists decide to really tank the ecconomy and start all over from zero.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, I get testy with people who post utter garbage

Me, too, but I try to remain civil, anyway.

Just about anything out the mouth of a believer in Friedman's blather, for instance.

Have you actually read anything of Friedman? To what do you object?

Right, because then it would be ignorant red necks who fell for the deregulated financial market's crap who would be most in default and a lot of black people who actually met reasonable criteria would be renters for life. You are making excuses for racism. I won't let that slide.

Banks lent on race-neutral credit-worthiness criteria. Because of lower black wealth and income, that meant a smaller fraction qualified for home loans. That's not "racism".

A man workiong for peanuts on an assembly line, thinking that he is going to have an income stream adequate to meet his needs in his declining years has nothing in common with an idiot who buys companies up and ships their physical plant off to Vietnam and then whines that he should bring his capital gains back into the country tax free. The assembly line worker has nothing in common with the fat slug who does nothing else than play games with other people's money. An assembly line worker has nothing in common with the worthless maggots who invented securitized mortgages and encouraged the banks to make loans they knew they wouldn't collect because they knew they could sell them to some yutz who thought they were a safe investment. Get real. What is good for the investor class hurts people who actually make stuff of value.

Anyone with a pension is an "investor". The notion of "investor class" is silly.

And, if the company controls the retirement funds, count on its being in financial instruments that have no tangiblle products associated with them. More often than not, the pensiuon funds are used to capitalize an off-shore operation.

I doubt that statement has empirical, statistical support. Evidence?

And, if they get a really greedy lot managing the company, they can go bankrupt and wipe out their obligation to pay anything on the pensions. It happens a lot these days.

That's true, but it does not make the people who put money in any less "investors".

What the CEO doesn't stuff up his nose is usually put into something that produces no jobs here, or maybe a few in China. Unless the trust fund is in union hands, don't count on workers' seeing a dime of it when the capitalists decide to really tank the ecconomy and start all over from zero.

Why trust union oficials? Unions provide negotiation services. They function like talent agents with legal responsibilities. What makes them special? I don't see it.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

And again, the company wasn't fined for abiding violating the new requirements before the new requirements went into effect (see above re ex post facto laws). The requirements changed, and your company failed to abide by the new requirements.

Maybe the company needs a legal advisor or someone to keep them informed of current requirements. It's certainly their burden and no one else's.

And it is not the governments job to actually try to inform people about regulation changes.

Telling people about laws us a waste of time that would mean people can obey them and cut into your revenue stream.