Merged Psychological conditions are illusory

[dafydd]

I have to check my posts carefully to make sure the letters are in the right order. I usually miss something. That is why there are so many edits. Jonesboy fails yet again.

 

[Soapy Sam]

Perhaps you're influenced by dyscalculia. How are you at automatically counting 4-8 objects if a display was flashed at you? I'd recommend you look it up, it's a problem I deal with and it made math much more difficult for me than it should have been.

Will do.
Counting isn't a problem though. Never was. UK schools in my day distinguished between "mathematics" and "arithmetic". I typically scored in the high 90s on arithmetic tests and in the 30s for maths. The problem was comprehension - much of which was because I couldn't read the expressions. Even now , something as simple as E=mc^2 is pure gibberish to me.
Reading it as "Energy is equivalent to velocity multiplied by the square of the speed of light" is fine and I have no difficulty understanding that at all,
but the expression itself - "E=mc^2" is just a series of squiggles. It doesn't scan as English in my head. I can't READ it as I can READ (for example) "Elmcat", a meaningless word that I can "hear in my head", look up in a dictionary and assign imaginary meanings to.

I don't understand why this is, but it's very annoying.

It occurs to me that an analogy would be a scanner , without OCR software. It can "see" and reproduce the text, but only as symbols. There's no parsing going on.

 

[Ferguson]

Every single time I turn a screw or open/close a valve (which, in my job, would be for hazardous material transfer), I do the "right hand rule" gesture. Make a loose fist with the thumb sticking out orthogonally (in a hitch-hiking gesture if you are in the same cultural milieu), the fingers point in the direction of turn and thumb points in the direction of the screw's axial motion. This works for nuts on fixed screws as well. That is, it works for all "right-hand" threads. Almost all threads are right-handed. There should be grooves on the head of a screw or nut that is not right-handed to warn you of the fact.

That is a great tip!
I still have to say "Righty-tighty, lefty-loosey" to myself every time I need to place/remove a screw. I've never had a problem with reading/writing/memory (by age 10 I'd read Iliad, Odyssey, some John Grisham, Steven King, etc.), but for some reason, I have no intuitive recollection of directions, without "reading" them in my mind. Every time I give a cardinal direction, I have to think them to myself, clockwise. So if I was giving a direction, I'd say "Yes, just head..." (think "N, E, S, W") "west."
Even with left and right, I have two ways to "recall" them, but I have to do one or the other every damn time. Either I read something, and note that the direction I started is Left, or I pretend to write something in the air, and note that the hand I'm wiggling is Right.

I can recall whole paragraphs and conversations word for word (right after High School I did community theatre, and a few run-throughs would be enough for me to remember hundreds of lines.) But for directions, I've just never been able to recall them without some kind of mnemonic.

I've never thought about it as a disorder or anything, it hasn't negatively impacted my life, but it does seem like there's some kind of spatial ability that just isn't quite there.

 

[Dancing David]

there are criteria for diagnosis, you can't just buy it. As much as I would have like to spell english phonetically, I can't. My mother saying "Sound out the word 'about'." just makes no sense to me, dysphonetic dyslexia. You can say it all you want, I had to memorize it a,b,o,u,t. Now I know it is ab+out but it made no nsense to me at the time.

Now the DSM labels it reading disorder:

Reading achievement. as measured by individually administered standardized tests of reading accuracy or comprehension. is substantially below that expected given the person's chronological age, measured intelligence, and age-appropriate education.

B. The disturbance in Criterion A significantly interferes with academic achievement or activities of daily living that require reading skills.

C. If a sensory deficit is present, the reading difficulties are in excess of those usually associated with it

Thanks for that clarification. I do not deny the existence of dyslexia, I just believe that it may go overlooked in some cases because of apathy on the part of parents and teachers meaning that the sufferer will go on to struggle with written language in later life whilst on the flipside may be overdiagnosed in others as an excuse for suboptimal performance and to gain academic advantages. Although the diagnostic criteria do exist I'm not sure I'd have much confidence in them because they seem somewhat subjective and arbitrary unlike say x-ray of a suspected fracture or finding tubercle bacilli in sputum. Again its similar to the example of depression that I mentioned earlier - if a pushy parent wanted the diagnosis they could get it.

And again, they could, but not through a school process. Now I do agree that middle class parents do push for more for less 'disability', but in general it is not as strong as you might think. They will usually seek outside the schools when they are told no.

 

[Dancing David]

I find it curious that if someone has problems reading or comprehending the alphabetic symbol set, he may be classified as dyslexic, yet my inability to make sense of mathematics is considered simple dimness.

Now dim sum, as the Chinese Latin teacher said, but ergo non mathematical? Pourquoi?

It depends, if you fall within the range for your cohort or fall way behind for your tested skill level.

Many are math challenged and they learn other strategies.

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

Even with left and right, I have two ways to "recall" them, but I have to do one or the other every damn time. Either I read something, and note that the direction I started is Left, or I pretend to write something in the air, and note that the hand I'm wiggling is Right.

I can recall whole paragraphs and conversations word for word (right after High School I did community theatre, and a few run-throughs would be enough for me to remember hundreds of lines.) But for directions, I've just never been able to recall them without some kind of mnemonic.

I've never thought about it as a disorder or anything, it hasn't negatively impacted my life, but it does seem like there's some kind of spatial ability that just isn't quite there.

And I suspect it is more common than not. Possibly even "normal". I say this because I learned over the years that I was gifted in the opposite fashion.

I was around eight years old when I realized that other people actually could get lost, in the sense that there were times they couldn't retrace their path from where they were to where they had been. For me it didn't matter if I was in the city or the woods. Once I had been there I knew it. If I had been to two different places by separate paths the relationship between them was intuitive. I always knew the other place was 'that way'.

Left and right were never a problem. Knots that other people thought were torturous to tie seemed obvious to me. (In second grade I taught myself how to tie every knot but one in an old Sea Scout manual one weekend I was bored by looking at the pictures.) Maps made perfect sense the first time I was introduced to them. All kinds, from street maps to top sheets. The first time I saw a bolt with a left hand thread I knew it turned the opposite way, and why it worked better that way.

I was one of those little kids who would take things apart ... and put them back together ... and they still worked. (Even without those extra pieces. )

My career in construction was made immensely easier because I could look at pages of drawings and quickly build an image of the structure in my 'mind's eye'. Complete with details. And motion if required. It took me years to understand how many other people in the trade were unable to do that. Most of them, it turns out. This was very frustrating for me early in my career, because it took me a while to understand that they were not being willfully stubborn, or lazy, or simply stupid.

Gradually I learned to respect their abilities because they would persist and 'get it' after a while. I almost felt like I was cheating then.

It did teach me patience. And humility. It's difficult sometimes to appreciate the things that come too easily for you.

 

[Tomtomkent]

I think that if we take this thread, and the one on PTSD together we would have to assume that Jonesboy is working to a unique view of how the mind works and what is or is not a "real" diagnosis. At best, if I were to offer the benefit of doubt, we could assume that he disagrees with the rest of society on what should or should not be defined as a disability. But frankly that is an issue of semantics and does not invalidate a diagnosis.

 

[iknownothing]

There are two apparent pathways, a visualization pathway and an auditory pathway which seem to be effected.

Now the funny thing is I can recreate music in my head, I can hear it easily. I can't sing it, more of that auditory reproduction, but I can tune it, I can replay it with time.

So while I can't sing on pitch, which is very annoying to others, I can hear the tones and play them on an instrument. But I can not sing worth a lick.

My boss doesn't hear music at all. I've been working for him for 8 years, but only learned this recently. He said that any kind of music people play, all he hears is noise and it irritates him. He's never bought a single record, CD, etc.

I guess he's just fortunate that you don't need music comprehension. People who are dyslexic must have been similarly fortunate in pre-literate societies.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

It is difficult to debunk dyslexia because the term doesn't mean anything. Medic<snip uninformed opinions>sed to say, but is "I don't know what you mean". This is because they, and no-one else, knows what they mean.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Dyslexia exists. My oldest (11) has pretty severe ADHD (which also doesn't exist in your world, I'm sure...) and has very mild dyslexia. He doesn't "know" his left from right, in that if I say "Pick up your left foot" he has to think about it. He mixes up words, because he skips to the end of the word rather than reading the whole thing. Same with sentences and long sets of instructions.

Dyslexics I've known over the years (including a guy who owned a sign painting shop -- no kidding. I had to go out and fix his spelling on installed signs from time to time) are highly intelligent and creative, but not very linear.

I'm just going to assume any thread you start is full of ignorance and not read them any more.

 

[dafydd]

Have you heard about the dyslexic Devil worshiper? He prayed to Santa.

 

[quarky]

I may have lysdexia.
My sense of direction is excellent in a wilderness area, but hopelessly bad in a city, where I can't see the sky or the flow of a creek.
The new technology is likely making such weaknesses irrelevant.

 

[Turgor]

I may have lysdexia.
My sense of direction is excellent in a wilderness area, but hopelessly bad in a city, where I can't see the sky or the flow of a creek.
The new technology is likely making such weaknesses irrelevant.

I have a good sense of which direction I'm going and using maps I can usually find my way. But with a piece of new technology i got, I found I became lost because of it. It was a smartphone app with a map that would orient itself to the direction you are going. Somehow this completely disoriented me and I started going left when i should be going right when walking south, even though on the screen it clearly showed I should be going right.

 

[Ottis]

I was very good at math as a kid, and equally bad at English/ spelling. My teachers didn't really help any by telling me that "People who are very good at math often don't do well in English." and giving me a pass on my spelling tests even when I had failed them miserably.
It went on like that through high-school, the "Don't worry about it, people who are very good at math aren't good at English" attitude got me out of even trying most of the time. 11th grade I believe I didn't turn in one paper or do any homework and got a "C" average for the year.
I believe that's the reason that, if not for spellcheck, you'd probably have a very hard time reading this post.

....<snip>....I was one of those little kids who would take things apart ... and put them back together ... and they still worked. (Even without those extra pieces. ) .........

I was the same way, mechanics, science, maps etc. all came very easy to me. Now I have a job as a Machinist for a major steam railroad, that sort of thing comes easy, but still today I can't spell worth a damn...

 

[CTB]

Have you heard about the dyslexic Devil worshiper? He prayed to Santa.

D'you think he knows the dyslexic atheist who doesn't believe in dog?

 

[NobbyNobbs]

I spent five years teaching at a school for kids with learning differences. Dyslexia certainly does exist.

Nonsense. But it is a bit unfair on dyslexics to have the name of their condition so hard to spell.

I always felt the same about those who lisp.

I find it curious that if someone has problems reading or comprehending the alphabetic symbol set, he may be classified as dyslexic, yet my inability to make sense of mathematics is considered simple dimness.

Now dim sum, as the Chinese Latin teacher said, but ergo non mathematical? Pourquoi?

Look up dysgraphia.

 

[Jonesboy]

First off, I'll go ahead and deny you outright that dyslexia is a method of disempowering people as a method to draw a distinction of superiority because it's obviously not the case (unless you yourself feel it's the case and your feelings give you bias of course; this is what I imagine occurs with you)

Secondly, you haven't discussed what dyslexia actually is. Jonesboy, I propose you're developing a strawman. You won't actually tell us what dyslexia is. Instead you say dyslexia is a method of disempowering those who fall into a particular range of reading skill and slapping your strawman all the while knowing that whatever you're calling dyslexia is not actually dyslexia.

This is not how dyslexia is determined or at least, only someone with the most ignorant and superficial thought can draw this conclusion.

Dyslexia is often symptomatic of other neurological causes. It is a symptom oftentimes. Because of this I can hardly believe that it's a method to disempower those with it and divide superior vs inferior.

It is not arbitrary at all, however I know there are a lot of people who freely diagnose themselves with dyslexia to defer responsibility for screwing up when reading something, such as when someone reads "dicks" instead of "ducks" but that's not dyslexia.

Your thoughts on aphasias Jonesboy?

You missed my entire point. I understand what a difficulty in reading is. But what's dyslexia.? I gave a reason for the use of this term.

As to feelings disempowering argument, how does that happen?

 

[Jonesboy]

Image reversal is real, the way I read is real as is my inability to spell english phonetically. The consistent pattern of patterns in failing to read at age level/cohort is consisten and not imaginary.

You have no data and evidence just a foolish opinion.

I understand this:
"The consistent pattern of patterns in failing to read at age level/cohort is consisten and not imaginary."
But "dyslexia" adds nothing to that understanding. It's an empty word.

 

[Jonesboy]

Then you are ignorant of what defines dyslexia. It does not disempower people, people who have it will not learn to read when they are taught with teh standard methods, they need other strategies.

I understand:
"... will not learn to read when they are taught with teh standard methods, they need other strategies."

But what's dyslexia?

 

[Jonesboy]

I understand dyslexia to be a mental condition that restricts the ability to distinguish symbols. I also understand that this understanding is incomplete, and that other people know more about it than I do.

What specific aspects of the studies that have been made concerning dyslexia do you feel are flawed?

I rather doubt that you have voiced these ideas, in person, to people who actually suffer from dyslexia.

So ..not being able to read correctly is a condition?
but being able to read correctly is not a condition?
how so?

 

[Jonesboy]

I'm so glad that all of the trouble I had reading the field notes from dislexic field workers is just figments of their imagination! Stupid, lazy people--how DARE they use modern medical science to get away with making MY life easier?!

Also, the above quote is just stupid. There is a natural range of heights in humans--yet dwarfism is a real thing, associated with a real genetic mutation and distinctly different from the normal variation. There's a natural variation in bone and muscle strenght, but that family in Germany with nearly unbreakable bones (practically speaking) and superhero-level strength isn't simply another datapoint, but represent a new mutation and a distinctly different system than the normal distribution. Just because something has a natural deviation in a population doesn't mean that the extremes aren't caused by something else.

You really need to take a statistics class--just because something looks like a single population doesn't mean that it is. Your interpretation of the data is entirely skewed (see what I did there?) by your ideological biases.

This is pure Argument from Personal Ignorance. I thought you studied philosophy somewhere. I'm getign really, really tempted to start calling you a fraud on that count...

I'm not interpreting data. I'm saying that YOU are interpreting data, by assigning certain ranges as conditions.