• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

Status
Not open for further replies.
Please are RAF, make a fool of me, show the world in what way I am wrong here

I am constantly amazed at how some people will make complete fools of themselves without any embarrassment whatsoever.

Please are RAF, I beg of you, make a fool of me, show the world in what way I am wrong here.

I have yet to see anything from anybody remotely substantive countering my claim. You guys are in trouble and I am lovin' it.

Edited by LashL: 
Edited for civility.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Edited by LashL: 
Edited for civility.

Actually I think R.A.F. has been spot with regards to you, and think Patrick since we have established your track record of deception and sockpuppetry you are in no position to criticize anyone else posting here, you should actually just be grateful they deign to respond to your nonsense.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

I didn't make a mistake.

No, you made several.

Your entire modus operandi for the past few months in which you've been debating this topic has been to pretend to be an expert, get caught, and run away to come back later under a new assumed identity hoping your trail of incompetence doesn't catch up to you.

Show my work to any professional cartographer and they'll tell you...

...that first you'll need to reconcile coordinate systems among the several in use.

It is so obvious...

Yet no one has managed to catch it in decades, except for the guy who has been shown to make basic map-reading errors.

The need here to do this must be quite deep.

Oh, but listen to you crow. Let's examine where the real needs probably lie.

First you show up to BAUT pretending to be a doctor. You say it was unacceptable for Frank Borman's gastrointestinal difficulties to be allowed to persist, and that if it were a real mission it would have been immediately aborted. Of course that argument was based solely on your say-so as an alleged medical professional. When others tore holes in that claim, you deployed a sock puppet -- supposedly another doctor -- to endorse the arbitrary opinion on which the whole claim rested. Your sock puppet was discovered and you were banned.

Then almost immediately after you arrive at ApolloHoax pretending to be some expert in celestial navigation. But naturally you made dozens of technical and conceptual errors, and I and others provided a very detailed, very in-depth description of how ascent guidance worked and how your claims simply made no sense. Then you destructed there in hail of sock-puppets and the now-familiar walls of text.

So back to BAUT where you claimed to be an expert in radar programming, but couldn't answer any basic questions about radar. You immediately tore into Wernher von Braun for being a horrible man who helped the Nazis commit genocide, and then into NASA for hiring such a horrible man. Then lo and behold you got caught again as a sock puppet and banned.

Now here, making the same claims under a brand new identity, but with fewer safeguards against uncivil debate.

Who in this discussion is really the one so desperate to prove his belief that he'll stoop to all manner of evasion and dishonesty to prevent a challenge?

Diagnosis; Limited intellectual range and contaminated calculative faculties.

That would almost work if my first post here hadn't been a fairly expert analysis of the computer difficulties encountered on Apollo 11, and if many of the kind readers and posters here don't know me from other forums such as BAUT and ApolloHoax.

Let's revisit part of that ApolloHoax debate again. You claimed a number of things, and when you were pressed to answer my question you evaded until you were threatened with banning, whereupon you admitted that you had no credible evidence the Moon landings were fake, and you conceded that it happened substantially as NASA claimed.

But of course that was just a tactical withdrawal to keep you from having to answer questions you knew you couldn't answer. So please by all means explain to the nice readers here how you can accuse me of intellectual incapacity when your own admission of incapacity is right there in black and white.

Punishment; Quarantine. Go to the library and study for the next several years. Don't come out until you can read a map.

Part of my work has been in orbital geographical imaging systems. I help draw maps, buddy. And I've spent many, many years in libraries and have obtained a fairly extensive college education, probably spanning more years than you've been alive.

You're making elementary mistakes and hoping that people won't catch you in them. Bluster will not save you.
 
Please are RAF, I beg of you, make a fool of me

You've done a bang up job of that all by yourself.

show the world in what way I am wrong here.

See pages 1 through wherever we are now.

I have yet to see anything from anybody remotely substantive countering my claim.

How do your type these replies with your eyes closed?

You guys are in trouble and I am lovin' it.

Wow yes you've attacked the mass of evidence for Apollo, and not even put a scratch in it. It's like watching someone attacking the Great Wall of China with a plastic spoon; bizarre, occasionally amusing but no real threat.
 
23 26' 00", the radian measure east coordinate of Tranquility Base



Wait a minute! Didn't you claim you had a math degree? But you're using "radians", a unit of angular measurement, for the name for the degress-minutes-second format! And you're still using it after it after I corrected you!


:dl:
 
The only way Patrick escapes being corrected by EVERYONE is that the all-but-impenetrable way he writes makes it too much effort to try to determine what he is saying.

That, and it seems to change from moment to moment anyhow, making it even more an exercise in futility to try to follow his arguments.
 
Well for one thing, Tranquility Base then is not at 23 26' 00"

Two words for this drivel:

SO WHAT?

What problem is this allegedly inaccurate position supposed to have caused since it has been clearly established it is irrelevant to the rendezvous?

Well for one thing, Tranquility Base then is not at longitude 23 26' 00".

So what? So what? I shall tell you what. If the LAM 2 map is scaled and labeled correctly, and what else may I ask should we assume, then Tranquility Base being at latitude J .65 and longitude 7.52 is at 00 40' 09" north and 23 29' 49" east.

And here we were Garrison, thinking all along Tranquility Base was really at 00 41' 15" north and 23 26' 00" east. Ain't we dumb and uninformed? NASA even wrote those silly numbers in their Apollo 11 (Simulated) Mission Report. But there you have it. The numbers don't lie. NASA labeled and scaled the map. Must be correct?

SO WHAT THEN ?

HERE IS WHAT THEN, TRANQUILITY BASE J .65 / 7.52 is not at 00 41' 15 " north and 23 26' 00", but rather 00 40' 09" north and 23 29' 49" east. AND as such, every single history book containing these numbers must now be rewritten, not to mention NASA's own web sites, every "page" where these numbers occur or are referenced, must be rewritten. AND this'll fry you, my name, Patrick1000, will have to appear as the source of this SO WHAT WHO CARES ABOUT THE NUMBERS ANYWAY CORRECTION.

Edited by LashL: 
Edited for civility.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Garrison, who cares about rendezvous?

You did, until you got caught.

The point is they are supposed to be determining where on the moon the astronauts are.

Why?

We haven't even broached the subject yet with respect to the impact this would or would not have on the simulated rendezvous.

Yes we have, and you lost.

Oh, it started innocently enough. You said it was vitally important to locate the LM precisely on the lunar surface so that the rendezvous could occur. Seems a fair ploy: I mean, what are the chances you'd run into anyone on a web forum who actually knows how guidance systems work.

Imagine your surprise at finding four on one forum.

So your carefully constructed bluster fell apart immediately. You had to backpedal and say that the missions probably happened as claimed, but that there was still some abstract historical concern over the way the landing coordinates had been computed.

So you're here now with the same ipse dixit historical claims, only now you think you have a new set of technical arguments to back up your claim. You said it yourself: maps are objective, and don't require us to buy into your subjective expectations for historical consistency.

Only you've gotten in way over your head again on the technical points, because map reading is not as straightforward as they taught you in Boy Scouts. Since you can't really speak in accurate cartographic terms, you have to invent a new science of map-reading where you fumble through your hand-crafted conversions and estimations, pretending that this somehow preserves the objectivity of the original source.

You start with an original source, but then on top of that you pile a huge mess of Cartography a la Patrick, hoping that we'll be so impressed with your cleverness that it won't be readily seen as what it is: pasted-on ignorant interpretation. And your back to the same basis for your argument: "It's fake because I say so."

Again I say, there's a reason all suitably educated people believe Apollo was real. It's not because they're sheep; it's because they know what they're talking about.
 
I hope with that as a weekend activity the relevance of map accuracy will finally sink in.



Map accuracy? Like the trajectory position to ORB-II-6 coordinate corrections?

To spare yourself more embarrassment why don't you research the datum transformation between LAM-2 and ORB-II-6 maps.
 
Heck, Jay, I arrived at the same thing through carpenter logic. If the LM has a 10% fuel margin on descent AND on ascent, it can't get any further off in descent than it is capable of correcting in ascent (all else being equal, which they aren't exactly, but close enough for a set of escape stairs!)
 
I hope with this as a weekend activity the relevance of map accuracy will finally sink in Garrison. JEEEEEEEEEeeeZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz.

I have my weekend plans, does include a little time pencilled in to watch you make a further fool of yourself, and you are doing a bang up job so far.
 
Just to amplify my above...Patrick is requiring an experienced test pilot, and a man with a degree in aeronautical engineering, to fly a spacecraft under his command and with his full understanding of what he is doing past the point of no return.

He is thinking someone who has spent a decade in the development of this craft, with hundreds of simulated hours in this craft, and who has gotten himself out of deadly situations multiple times in his aviation and space career, will mindlessly continue a course that will maroon him on the Moon without once considering the consequences.

I do not think that Patrick has any developed or complex skill set of his own. To only be able to imagine people interacting with their environment in this primitive a fashion betrays a lack of any personal experience of a more complex world.
 
Nice try Boy Scout

Garrison, who cares about rendezvous?

You did, until you got caught.

The point is they are supposed to be determining where on the moon the astronauts are.

Why?

We haven't even broached the subject yet with respect to the impact this would or would not have on the simulated rendezvous.

Yes we have, and you lost.

Oh, it started innocently enough. You said it was vitally important to locate the LM precisely on the lunar surface so that the rendezvous could occur. Seems a fair ploy: I mean, what are the chances you'd run into anyone on a web forum who actually knows how guidance systems work.

Imagine your surprise at finding four on one forum.

So your carefully constructed bluster fell apart immediately. You had to backpedal and say that the missions probably happened as claimed, but that there was still some abstract historical concern over the way the landing coordinates had been computed.

So you're here now with the same ipse dixit historical claims, only now you think you have a new set of technical arguments to back up your claim. You said it yourself: maps are objective, and don't require us to buy into your subjective expectations for historical consistency.

Only you've gotten in way over your head again on the technical points, because map reading is not as straightforward as they taught you in Boy Scouts. Since you can't really speak in accurate cartographic terms, you have to invent a new science of map-reading where you fumble through your hand-crafted conversions and estimations, pretending that this somehow preserves the objectivity of the original source.

You start with an original source, but then on top of that you pile a huge mess of Cartography a la Patrick, hoping that we'll be so impressed with your cleverness that it won't be readily seen as what it is: pasted-on ignorant interpretation. And your back to the same basis for your argument: "It's fake because I say so."

Again I say, there's a reason all suitably educated people believe Apollo was real. It's not because they're sheep; it's because they know what they're talking about.

Nice try Boy Scout. Enough with your Apollo is true by virtue of an appeal to reason jive line Jay. Your bogus astronauts are flat out busted here dude. The map is fake and you know it. Give me some numbers! Prove me wrong! I see none and know you cannot!

IT IS HARD EVIDENCE, THE MAP FRAUD JUST DEMONSTRATED, AND YOU KNOW IT SO QUIT TRYING TO DENY IT. IT MAKES A MAN OF YOUR REPUTATION/STATURE LOOK PATHETIC, KIND OF LIKE ARMSTRONG.

I'll have much to say about why map accuracy is ever so relevant. For starters, you'll recall that identifying "Little West Crater" ON A MAP! at J / 7-8 was one of the ways "Tranquility Base's location" was first identified.

My oh my oh my, watch them scramble! scramble! scramble!

Edited by LashL: 
Edited for civility.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Nice try Boy Scout. Enough with your Apollo is true by virtue of an appeal to reason jive line Jay. Your bogus astronauts are flat out busted here dude. The map is fake and you know it. Give me some numbers! Prove me wrong! I see none and know you cannot!

IT IS HARD EVIDENCE, THE MAP FRAUD JUST DEMONSTRATED, AND YOU KNOW IT SO QUIT TRYING TO DENY IT. IT MAKES A MAN OF YOUR REPUTATION/STATURE LOOK PATHETIC, KIND OF LIKE ARMSTRONG.

I'll have much to say about why map accuracy is ever so relevant. For starters, you'll recall that identifying "Little West Crater" ON A MAP! at J / 7-8 was one of the ways "Tranquility Base's location" was first identified.

My oh my oh my, watch them scramble! scramble! scramble!

Edited by LashL: 
Edited for civility.

Is it me or is the tone getting progressively more hysterical today? And I mean that in both senses of the word.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I'll have much to say about why map accuracy is ever so relevant. For starters, you'll recall that identifying "Little West Crater" ON A MAP! at J / 7-8 was one of the ways "Tranquility Base's location" was first identified.



Ever hear of a "street sign"?

Ever hear of a "lighthouse", or a "buoy", or a "dayboard"?

Ever hear of the sport called "orienteering"?

Ever hear of "bathymetric navigation"?

Your continuous spouted incredulity of the simplest of navigational techniques is very amusing. Do you need help finding the bathroom in your own house?
 
In the parlance of the Apollo Faithful, "evasion noted" Matt.

Ever hear of a "street sign"?

Ever hear of a "lighthouse", or a "buoy", or a "dayboard"?

Ever hear of the sport called "orienteering"?

Ever hear of "bathymetric navigation"?

Your continuous spouted incredulity of the simplest of navigational techniques is very amusing. Do you need help finding the bathroom in your own house?

In the parlance of the Apollo Faithful, "evasion noted" Matt.

The issue at hand is the map, its authenticity, accuracy, fraudulence. The numbers if you please............, or be off with you. I have no time for such irrelevant prattle.

Within a week, I'll have the Apollo 11 official story completely eviscerated. The phony map is hard evidence of fraud and you all know it.

Let the good times roll boys and girls. The TIDE has changed.
'
 
Last edited:
Enough with your Apollo is true by virtue of an appeal to reason jive line Jay.


Appeal to reason!

Hoax believers, after growing weary of being told they are committing logical fallacies, decide if they can't beat em they'll join em. But as usual, the "logic" part eludes them.

Stundied!
 
AND this'll fry you, my name, Patrick1000, will have to appear as the source of this...

So it's fair to say that if you have to admit you're wrong, then you don't get your name in the history books as Doctor Patrick Fattydash Tea, the High Gain Professor of physiology, medicine, mathematics, astrodynamics, and radar repair at the Proxy University of Hear-No-Evil.

Okay hyperbole aside, that's really what you want, isn't it? This isn't about space exploration or holding powerful interests accountable. This is about making you feel important. This is about creating a fantasy world in which you are the doctor-lawyer-soldier-scientist who saves the huddled, sheepish masses from their own ignorance and foolishness, and prevails against a terrible, faceless foe that has oppressed them.

You've tapped out NASA as your foe, and you'll take any shot against it that you can: guidance, bacteriology, history, politics. You'll pretend to be any person you have to be in order to fight that foe. Except you're not really fighting it; you're fighting the caricature of it that you've created. And you're not fighting it with actual weapons, but instead with little plastic swords of your own invented or supposed expertise. You don't really know the sciences involved, so you try to reinvent them by simplifying the problems down to your level of understanding, picking and choosing what parts of them make sense to you and conform to your beliefs. This is why you fear opposition from actual qualified experts. You can only respond by evasion, and when that fails, with bluster.

The purpose of your fantasy world is to create you as the hero. So your lengthy computations and comparisons, intricate and based on nothing more than your guess for how such problems should be solved, become what you hope are the artifacts of your victory. "Look at me! Look at what I've done! Look at this masterful computation that shows I've prevailed against impossible odds!"

This payoff is real. Dr. Irving Biederman studies the neurophysical effects of believing you have uncovered a nefarious plot, or that you know or believe something others do not. There are neurochemical artifacts associated with secret-knowing and secret-keeping.

It doesn't matter to you that there are simple and foolproof observations that we can do to ascertain that the mainstream results against which you violently compute are good enough. You aren't interested in the answer, because you know the answer will pop your fantasy world like a soap bubble, and because those elaborated lines of reasoning are themselves the payoff.

In the real world a method that produces the wrong result is useless, regardless of how intricately it has been crafted or how proud its creator is of it. And you can't bear to see any of your elaborately crafted lines of reasoning written off as useless. You rely on deduction when we can obtain better results by observation. You eschew the observation so that you can wrap yourself in the warm fuzziness of a deduction you authored, even if it's misdirected and wrong.

The reason the world won't let you persist in your fantasy is because by accusing Apollo practitioners of fraud, you are affecting real people. Sorry, but your sense of well-being just isn't worth rewriting the world's history and denying skilled people their just desserts. And there really are people whose love of truth and fact is strong enough to compel them to comment when someone like you plays fast and loose with them for his own purposes. That's what I understand JREF to intend. By all means expand your self-esteem, but not at the expense of others' legitimate accomplishments.
 
Nice try Boy Scout. Enough with your Apollo is true by virtue of an appeal to reason jive line Jay. Your bogus astronauts are flat out busted here dude. The map is fake and you know it. Give me some numbers! Prove me wrong! I see none and know you cannot!

IT IS HARD EVIDENCE, THE MAP FRAUD JUST DEMONSTRATED, AND YOU KNOW IT SO QUIT TRYING TO DENY IT. IT MAKES A MAN OF YOUR REPUTATION/STATURE LOOK PATHETIC, KIND OF LIKE ARMSTRONG.

I'll have much to say about why map accuracy is ever so relevant. For starters, you'll recall that identifying "Little West Crater" ON A MAP! at J / 7-8 was one of the ways "Tranquility Base's location" was first identified.

My oh my oh my, watch them scramble! scramble! scramble!

Edited by LashL: 
Edited for civility.

Pat, you should really go back & check your work. Where you went wrong has been mentioned already, you're wrong.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom