Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[LondonJohn]

Are you in agreement with Rolfe's sarcastic description of the Kerchers?

In what way was Rolfe's post sarcastic towards the Kerchers? And in what way was it denigrating in any way towards the Kerchers? I read that post as a criticism of those who seek to beatify the Kercher family in the same way as they have beatified Meredith Kercher. It's totally appropriate to say that on the whole the Kercher family have conducted themselves with quiet dignity (although I do think that John Kercher might live to regret a couple of articles he's written), and it's also fair to say that everything we know points to Meredith having been a kind, outgoing, loving, ambitious young woman. But I agree completely with Rolfe that there has been a grotesque distortion taking place among many pro-guilt commentators, in which Meredith and her family have transmogrified into saintly figures who are also near-deities in their untouchability. I think that such depictions are warped, unnecessary and wrong. It reminds me very strongly of the post-death beatification of Princess Diana.

As regards the practicalities of air fares and so on, I would actually agree that there is an unfair disparity between the comparative luxuries offered to Knox's family (although I don't think one can blame the family themselves for accepting many of these gifts, provided that they haven't prostituted themselves to the gift-givers in the process), and the lack of assistance offered to the Kercher family. I happen to think that the UK foreign office should have found a way to fund a certain level of travel and subsistence for Meredith's family, and I think it's deplorable that this hasn't happened. I feel very sorry for the fact that both Meredith's parents appear to be quite seriously ill, and yet they also appear to be getting no financial assistance towards observing the justice process surrounding their daughter's murder.

 

[yeti101]

some of Rolfe's comments are a bit disturbing to be fare.

 

[Rolfe]

How religious is the Kercher family? I'm starting to wonder if they've fallen for the whole she-devil witch thing, and any talk of Merediths (typical student) behaviour is just confirmation that the she-devil corrupted her?

I doubt it, I really do. They're English, and that sort of mediaeval religious mania is extremely rare in England. It's pretty much unheard-of outside the Afro-Caribbean community.

I recognise the syndrome from some exposure to some of the American families of the Lockerbie victims. They have been so closely "groomed" by the prosecution to believe that al-Megrahi murdered their loved ones that even the humungous piles of evidence that say he had nothing to do with it are simply handwaved aside. One of the English relatives describes them as being brainwashed.

I think it's something that happens a lot. The investigators and the prosecution keep the family "in the loop", to the point where the family implicitly believes the case against the accused. It then becomes such an emotional crutch for them to believe that this person is indeed guilty that they simply cannot bear to face the possibility that this is not true.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

some of Rolfe's comments are a bit disturbing to be fare.

If anything is untrue, please point it out and I will immediately withdraw it. I will point out that I'm trying to be disturbing. I think it's about time some ridiculous stereotypes were challenged. And I don't just mean things like only a woman would cover the body.

I hear what LondonJohn says about the financial situation, and he makes a good point. If the Kerchers are not receiving any official assistance, and are not able to take advantage of media deals, then this is very unfair.

Rolfe.

 

[snook1]

Is it Monday yet?

The waiting is unbearable. I'm anxious about the outcome.

The pressroom thing - maybe Hellmann does not want a courthouse full of people while Amanda and Raffaele will be walking out of the court? Maybe he wants them to be outside, waiting for those two youngsters...

Again, to appoint people with cameras on faces of Amanda and Raffaele just to announce a guilty verdict, would be indeed, inhuman.

 

[icerat]

Is it Monday yet?

The waiting is unbearable. I'm anxious about the outcome.

The pressroom thing - maybe Hellmann does not want a courthouse full of people while Amanda and Raffaele will be walking out of the court? Maybe he wants them to be outside, waiting for those two youngsters...

Again, to appoint people with cameras on faces of Amanda and Raffaele just to announce a guilty verdict, would be indeed, inhuman.

As already pointed out, it's not if they're actually guilty. Then it's a way to show the world that the Italian justice system is not influenced by multi-million dollar PR campaigns.

 

[Kaosium]

Are you in agreement with Rolfe's sarcastic description of the Kerchers?

Lionking, just what are the Kerchers coming to the appeal hearing for? I would hope it would to do something saintly and noble, such as announce they're dropping the other three suits Maresca has involved them in.

Otherwise, why are they coming? This is Amanda and Raffaele's day, not theirs. Their lawyer is telling press rumors of Amanda leaving on a jet plane, and how the Kerchers can't afford it, so why are they coming? Was that report of them staring down the jury and demanding Amanda and Raffaele's scalps just hyperbole?

 

[LondonJohn]

I doubt it, I really do. They're English, and that sort of mediaeval religious mania is extremely rare in England. It's pretty much unheard-of outside the Afro-Caribbean community.

I recognise the syndrome from some exposure to some of the American families of the Lockerbie victims. They have been so closely "groomed" by the prosecution to believe that al-Megrahi murdered their loved ones that even the humungous piles of evidence that say he had nothing to do with it are simply handwaved aside. One of the English relatives describes them as being brainwashed.

I think it's something that happens a lot. The investigators and the prosecution keep the family "in the loop", to the point where the family implicitly believes the case against the accused. It then becomes such an emotional crutch for them to believe that this person is indeed guilty that they simply cannot bear to face the possibility that this is not true.

Rolfe.

Yes, and I think that this is very likely what has happened here. It's a psychological phenomenon in a similar bracket as Stockholm Syndrome. I feel deeply sorry for the Kerchers that they have been psychologically influenced in this way. I hope that it doesn't take them too long to understand that their faith in Maresca and Mignini was misplaced, and that they were manipulated and programmed by these two characters. However, I am worried that they will be left dangling after the acquittals, and may well consequently suffer for even longer than they need to.

It's a real shame that while something like Stockholm Syndrome is very well-identified, and that there is professional assistance to help its victims, there is usually no help at all for victims (or victims' families) who have to deal with the psychological trauma of seeing acquittals of those whom they were programmed to believe were the perpetrators. I hope that the Kerchers somehow have access to any professional counselling that they might need to help them come to terms with what's going to happen next week. I feel genuinely upset at the unnecessary suffering that they have already been through at the hands of Maresca/Mignini, and I feel equally upset at what lies ahead for them in the coming weeks and months.

 

[LondonJohn]

If anything is untrue, please point it out and I will immediately withdraw it. I will point out that I'm trying to be disturbing. I think it's about time some ridiculous stereotypes were challenged. And I don't just mean things like only a woman would cover the body.

I hear what LondonJohn says about the financial situation, and he makes a good point. If the Kerchers are not receiving any official assistance, and are not able to take advantage of media deals, then this is very unfair.

Rolfe.

Would I be correct to think that financial assistance was made available to get UK-based (and even US-based) victims' families to Camp Zeist for the Lockerbie trial?

 

[Rolfe]

It's absolutely appalling that they should be allowed to try to sway the jury with an emotional appeal. The depth of their distress, and nobody doubts that part, has absolutely no bearing on whether Knox and/or Sollecito are guilty of the murder. The idea that they can come in and say, put aside any reasonable doubts you might have and give me these people's heads on a platter because I'm missing my daughter so much, is absolutely outrageous.

Address the bench after a conviction in the matter of the sentence, yes. Try to sway a doubtful case towards a conviction by appeals to raw emotion - what are they thinking of? They must know that would never be allowed in England.

Rolfe.

 

[yeti101]

do you think any of AKs supporters could be showing signs of similar psychological phenomenon like Stockholm syndrome?

the zeel in which they not only defend her but attack the "other-side" . Being very attracted to someone can make you behave irrationally

 

[Rolfe]

It's a psychological phenomenon in a similar bracket as Stockholm Syndrome.

Isn't that funny! I nearly typed that, but I wasn't sure it was entirely justifiable. I think you're right though. My encounters with a very emotional Lockerbie relative in this very forum have compelled me to that conclusion.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

Would I be correct to think that financial assistance was made available to get UK-based (and even US-based) victims' families to Camp Zeist for the Lockerbie trial?

I don't know for sure. I think it's highly likely, but on the other hand they wouldn't have needed it, as by then they'd all got a couple of million each from the civil liability case which bankrupted Pan Am in 1994. That was before Gaddafi's millions that came afterwards, but it would have been enough for a few plane tickets (not on Pan Am though!).

Rolfe.

 

[snook1]

As already pointed out, it's not if they're actually guilty. Then it's a way to show the world that the Italian justice system is not influenced by multi-million dollar PR campaigns.

I remember how you pointed that out. However, this is not possible for Hellmann to announce a guilty verdict with cameras all over their faces. There's no proof they were involved. Calling someone a witch or a bitch isn't proof. To convict someone of murder without a proof is beyond any logical thinking. I don't think Hellmann would want cameras in, if he thinks about upholding the conviction. If he wants to convict them, then it's based on nothing and I'm not sure if he would want the whole world to see it.

Unless, he wants the cameras on their faces, instead on his? This way he would get away with reading a guilty verdict with cameras on *his* face.

I hope Ghirga will do a good job tomorrow and I'm looking forward to Amanda's and Raffaele's statements on Monday.

 

[Rolfe]

do you think any of AKs supporters could be showing signs of similar psychological phenomenon like Stockholm syndrome?

the zeel in which they not only defend her but attack the "other-side" . Being very attracted to someone can make you behave irrationally

If you want to see "attacking the other side", pay a visit to PMF.org.

The idea that people who are concerned about the miscarriage of justice suffered by Knox and Sollecito are sexually attracted to either of them is simply ridiculous. It's a rationalisation dreamed up by the guilter community because they can't understand simple outrage over a blatant railroad job.

Rolfe.

 

[icerat]

do you think any of AKs supporters could be showing signs of similar psychological phenomenon like Stockholm syndrome?

the zeel in which they not only defend her but attack the "other-side" . Being very attracted to someone can make you behave irrationally

That might be true, but then on the other hand you've got folk like myself, who haven't been following this case *at all* over the past however many years, start looking at the evidence this week - with no prior bias - and are frankly shocked at what we've read.

And personally I don't think she's as attractive as people seem to think. Good looking, sure, but no more than most gals. Then again, I do live in Sweden

 

[LondonJohn]

It's absolutely appalling that they should be allowed to try to sway the jury with an emotional appeal. The depth of their distress, and nobody doubts that part, has absolutely no bearing on whether Knox and/or Sollecito are guilty of the murder. The idea that they can come in and say, put aside any reasonable doubts you might have and give me these people's heads on a platter because I'm missing my daughter so much, is absolutely outrageous.

Address the bench after a conviction in the matter of the sentence, yes. Try to sway a doubtful case towards a conviction by appeals to raw emotion - what are they thinking of? They must know that would never be allowed in England.

Rolfe.

I suspect that the incredible latitude that is seemingly allowed in addresses to the court in Italian criminal trials is to a degree linked to the different makeup of those trying the case. In the Anglo-Saxon common law model, the triers are 12 ordinary people. While they receive instruction from the judge, they are left alone in the jury room to deliberate and reach a verdict. It's entirely possible that emotional appeals might have an improper effect upon a 12-lay-person jury of the sort we're used to here.

But in Italian trials, the judge (and his/her deputy) are not only in the room during the deliberations, they are also the heads of the judicial panel. I therefore think that it is very likely that any competent judge will make sure that the six lay judges are not making decisions based on such appeals to emotion, and that they are strictly sticking to the facts of the case. And not only that, but as I've said before, I think it's highly likely that the composition of the judicial panel in Italian trials is fundamentally flawed. I think that in the vast majority of cases, the two professional judges not only set the tone for the deliberation, but that they actually in effect decide the verdict. I strongly suspect that the six lay judges almost always simply fall in line behind the two professional judges. And if that's the case, then the case is actually being tried by two professional judges alone - the six lay judges are no more than window dressing and a sop to some sort of wider democratic justice.

And if I'm correct in my interpretation, then I think that Hellmann and Zanetti have already given more than adequate indication that they are taking a very firm line on the way in which they try this case. I think they are more than capable of seeing past any tugs at the emotional heartstrings, and I think they will reach their verdict on the cold, hard facts of the case. In fact, I think they were certain of their verdict as soon as they had heard the prosecution/civil parties' arguments. Acquittals.

 

[BaileyBell]

do you think any of AKs supporters could be showing signs of similar psychological phenomenon like Stockholm syndrome?

the zeel in which they not only defend her but attack the "other-side" . Being very attracted to someone can make you behave irrationally

do you think any of the guilters could be showing signs of similar psychological phenomenon like Stockholm syndrome?

the zeel in which they not only demonize her but attack the "other-side" . Being very spiteful to someone can make you behave irrationally

 

[pilot padron]

Uhhhhh ??

It's absolutely appalling that they should be allowed to try to sway the jury with an emotional appeal. T

Are you referring to the spontaneous statements that are allowed in Italian Courts ?
The ones supposed to be made Monday by Knox and Sollecito ?
The ones where they are not cross examined about what they say ?
The ones that the Court allows them to lie, and in facts expects them to do so ?

Yup, indeed
That is absolutely appalling that they should be allowed to try to sway the jury with an emotional appeal.
That would never be allowed in US Courts either

 

[Rolfe]

Here we go, right on cue. http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewto...69f67def0b36d4a524164684c3&start=2750#p102453

I don't suppose he'll copy-paste the actually challenging bits though.

ETA: Oh, hi Pilot!

Rolfe.