Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[lionking]

I see the rumours about the Kerchers having difficulties getting a flight are now being translated into the Kerchers not being able to afford the fare to Perugia for the verdict. Helped along by Mignini I guess, contrasting their alleged poverty with the Knox alleged private jet.

I don't think I believe that they're so cash-strapped. And how much is Mignini being paid for all this? Could he not spring for a few air tickets? But now the PMF.org have decided they are the ones who are going to raise the money for their "dignified", perfect, saintly family to fly to Italy. Even people who themselves are living hand to mouth are volunteering their widow's mite.

I wonder if the Kerchers will have the grace to be embarrassed? But the more the PMFers do this, the more I want to throw up, I'm afraid.

ETA: Now the gorge is really rising....
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ox-trial-Is-Foxy-walk-free-make-millions.html

Rolfe.

So this is where this thread has come to? Denigration of the (so far only) victim's family? And other forums are called hate sites.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

uncovering the myth about the duvet

New article in the Daily Mail. Quote from Migmig: "‘Amanda has still never seen those photographs and to me that says a lot. I think she remains to this day shocked and ashamed of what she did. That is why she covered Meredith’s body with the duvet. Only a woman would have done that.’

This guy is soooo stupid. I would like one guilter to actually argue why the bolded above is a fair assumption.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...arely-afford-attend-appeal.html#ixzz1ZTbkPPHr

HB,

FBI profiler John Douglas took that notion to task recently:
Quote
JD: That’s absurd. There are different reasons why someone will cover a body. There's a certain sense of wanting to undo the crime. Guede didn’t leave after the crime, but he doesn’t want to look at her. It’s not that he didn’t feel good about what he has done; I can see that because of the way he killed her and sexually assaulted her. He’s a sadistic individual with a violent past. He put the blanket over her because he was wandering around the apartment and didn’t want to see her.

Sadly, this was a very pedestrian murder. And that’s not to diminish this beautiful woman’s life, Meredith. It’s not that complicated, crimes are not so complicated. After a week, I would’ve said tot he investigators, “Are you kidding me? You mean you haven’t arrested the guy?”
Endquote

 

[Ammonitida]

So a defendant in Italy can be acquitted, retried and convicted? They have nothing like double jeopardy protection? Theoretically, the prosecutor could keep retrying someone until he gets a guilty verdict?

If I was her and I was acquitted on Monday, I'd be very tempted to run and never look back (to a place where you can't be extradited in case the Supreme Court finds fault with the acquittal). She's entangled with a very corrupt prosecution and police force here. It might be very dangerous for her if she doesn't run.

 

[Rolfe]

So this is where this thread has come to? Denigration of the (so far only) victim's family? And other forums are called hate sites.

No, I'm denigrating those idiots at PMF.org. And Mignini, who is a conscience-free bastard. I'm merely declining to canonise the Kerchers.

Rolfe.

 

[LondonJohn]

You know, I must be a bad person, but this sort of thing is really making me puke.

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewto...69f67def0b36d4a524164684c3&start=2750#p102434

Rolfe.

My God, that is unbelievable. It really is going to be some sort of emotional meltdown for some people when Knox and Sollecito are acquitted on Monday. And all this for someone whom they never knew or met, and whose family or friends they have never known or met. A psychiatrist or social psychologist would quite seriously be able to conduct a fascinating study into what makes people behave or act in this way. I personally find it incredibly interesting, as well as very saddening. The "online war" over this case is a bizarre and slightly frightening phenomenon that is worthy (in my opinion) of separate analysis from the underlying case upon which the "war" is based.

I truly hope that after the verdict on Monday, everyone will exercise restraint, dignity and decency. Unfortunately, given the way I think the verdict is going to go, there will be some very regrettable and unpleasant things written over the following week. I am not looking forward to watching it all happen.

 

[HumanityBlues]

No, we dont "know". But we're not in the dark either!

Don't fall for the fallacy of gray. We may not be able to be 99% confident, but we can be, say, 75% confident (as I am).

The signs point toward acquittal. Yes, a surprise could still happen. But there's no question at this point what the surprising outcome would be versus the expected outcome.

FWIW, the prosecution's best chance is on the Lumumba slander charge against Knox. If there is a conviction on that, that will be a hint that Hellmann's court isn't entirely convinced of Knox and Sollecito's innocence (despite perhaps believing -- correctly -- that they are legally compelled to acquit on the murder charge). But if that's all they were able to get, I'm not sure I would even consider that a prosecution victory (nor would it count for my bet with DarthRotor), since it would result in Knox and Sollecito's immediate release (due in Knox's case to her having already been in prison longer than any sentence for that crime would require).

Who wants to bet we're gonna see some crazy articles in the next two days? Can we say 99% certainty?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

scratching my head at one comment

So this is where this thread has come to? Denigration of the (so far only) victim's family? And other forums are called hate sites.

lionking,

If Lyle (?) (Kercher) did indeed describe Rudy as a gentleman, then I am very much mystified.
EDT
I am not certain that I interpreted the comment at dot org correctly. However, I think that Douglas's characterization of Guede stands a good chance of being correct.

 

[bees]

If I was her and I was acquitted on Monday, I'd be very tempted to run and never look back (to a place where you can't be extradited in case the Supreme Court finds fault with the acquittal). She's entangled with a very corrupt prosecution and police force here. It might be very dangerous for her if she doesn't run.

Agreed - if I were her parents I'd take any offer of a plane on stand-by and get the hell out of the 15th Century ASAP. They should burn up the runway in their haste to put an ocean between them and those toxic, corrupt & misogynistic prosecutors & police.

 

[lionking]

No, I'm denigrating those idiots at PMF.org. And Mignini, who is a conscience-free bastard. I'm merely declining to canonise the Kerchers.

Rolfe.

I will let others decide based on your words "dignified, perfect, saintly" expressed in such a sarcastic way as well as your call for them to be embarrassed.

Clear denigration.

 

[Wildhorses]

The last tweet you quote is nothing more than narcissism from the lawyer in question. I have an idea who that lawyer might be....

Regarding the outcome of the appeal trial, I am still prepared to state that I have total confidence that Hellmann's court will announce acquittals. And this is not just mindless grandstanding or "shock tactics" on my behalf: I truly think that all the evidence available adds up to only one possible outcome. For Hellmann's court to hand down guilty verdicts, given what we know, would be an utterly perverse and completely irrational act. I wasn't interested in the case at the time of the Massei trial and verdict, but looking back, I think I would have been unable to call the verdict given what was thought to be known at that time.

To put it another way, if I were playing no-limits Texas hold 'em poker (I'm quite a big online player, but almost always of limit poker), I would have no hesitation whatsoever in moving all-in on a bet of acquittal in Hellmann's court. I wonder if anyone on the pro-guilt side would want to call my raise?

I have followed your posts, as a lurker, since you started posting. I trust your judgement and am heartened by your confidence. You're usually (jeesh, maybe always?) right. Sure hope you are now.

At the time of the Massei verdict, there were still a lot of unfounded rumors swirling around. It was much harder to separate fact from fantasy. As Sfarzo points out in his latest post, the defense arguments barely registered in court (or with the press or in the court of public opinion). So much has changed. I know that. Yet one would think Barbie does too.

 

[RandyN]

Barbie Nadeau:
"There is an odd ribbon of red carpet down the corso vannucci in perugia. Who is it for?"

Candace?


Now thats funny...I dont care who you are.

 

[lionking]

lionking,

If Lyle (?) (Kercher) did indeed describe Rudy as a gentleman, then I am very much mystified.
EDT
I am not certain that I interpreted the comment at dot org correctly. However, I think that Douglas's characterization of Guede stands a good chance of being correct.

Are you in agreement with Rolfe's sarcastic description of the Kerchers?

 

[icerat]

My biggest concern re confidence of acquittal is that many folk here on JREF are experts at evaluating evidence and coming to rational conclusions based on that evidence.

The evidence (or rather, utter lack of) does clearly point towards acquittal.

But JREF ain't the court.

 

[LondonJohn]

lionking,

If Lyle (?) (Kercher) did indeed describe Rudy as a gentleman, then I am very much mystified.

He did indeed, in the press conference held after the Massei verdicts. He was talking (IIRC) about the family's satisfaction with the verdicts, and said something along the lines of "We are satisfied that these two people, together with the other gentleman who was convicted in an earlier trial, have been found guilty". He was clearly using the word "gentleman" in the peculiarly-English context of it being the more correct (and formal) way to describe a male adult person. The alternative is the word "man", which is seen as rather abrupt and gauche if one is trying to speak correctly. It's the same reason why so many English people mistakenly use the word "myself" instead of the correct "me" when trying to speak more formally (e.g. "If you'd like to follow myself up to your room") - the word "me" is viewed by many English people (incorrectly) as gauche and rather anglo-saxon in such a context.

So my opinion is that Lyle Kercher was merely trying to reach for a more "formal" descriptor to describe Guede, given that he was representing the family in a rather sombre, formal press conference (which would also be a situation with which he likely had little familiarity and in which he was nervous). I don't think that Lyle Kercher ever intended to imply that Guede was any kind of upstanding individual - as in "Sir, you're an officer and a gentleman!". It was just that he chose that word since he felt it sounded more appropriate than the more gutteral "man".

 

[smkovalinksy]

Whatever is the reason for the delay until Monday,for any judge to give cameras access to the courtroom to film Amanda Knox's face when she is convicted wrongly for the second time would be inhuman

I believe that judge Hellmann is allowing cameras into the courtroom to film the moment a terrible wrong is righted

I pray you are right. Why did Nadeau tweet this a.m. that Hellman specified , "1 reporter from each network only, and no pressroom."

 

[codyjuneau]

The prosecution demanded six months solitary confinement for Amanda and (I think) two months for Raffaele, in addition to life imprisonment. I don't know if Rudy was given any solitary confinement.

Rolfe.

I used to believe that Mignini's primary motivation was ego. However I am beginning to believe his primary motivation is actually sadism.

 

[yeti101]

I pray you are right. Why did Nadeau tweet this a.m. that Hellman specified , "1 reporter from each network only, and no pressroom."

praying at JREF? what's the world coming to?

do you think your relationship with knox will continue if she's acquitted . Will you buy her book or watch a movie about it?

 

[Rolfe]

I will let others decide based on your words "dignified, perfect, saintly" expressed in such a sarcastic way as well as your call for them to be embarrassed.

Clear denigration.

Have you read the nauseating bilge that's being written over on PMF? I'm being sarcastic about that.

The Kerchers seem to be a perfectly ordinary family who have had a nightmare happen to them. That doesn't turn them into saints, and John Kercher has written some pretty questionable things. So has Stephanie come to that. Sympathy indeed, I wouldn't wish their situation on my worst enemy. But still, that doesn't make them perfect.

Meredith was a student abroad, much like Amanda. The two girls seem to have been friends, even if Amanda might have got on Meredith's nerves from time to time. Meredith thought a vibrator was embarrassing. I hope she really didn't think condoms were embarrassing, because she was sleeping with her drug dealer boyfriend whom she had only known a short time. She partied with the best of them, being said to be drunk on occassion, including Hallowe'en when she came in with the milk, went to bed without taking off her makeup and slept till noon. The guilters like to hypothesise that she had a bad hangover, when that's convenient to their pseudo-scientific theories about the stomach contents. And she was smoking her boyfriend's cannabis.

See how you can make the truth sound really bad? Meredith was an ordinary student just like Amanda. She did the same things as Amanda, except Amanda seems to have had a nicer boyfriend. But by the prosecution's own standards, she also was "into sex, drugs and alcohol".

If the situation had played out only a little differently, it could have been Amanda who came home early to be raped and stabbed by Rudy Guede, and Meredith discovering the body to be accused by Miginini of murder. It could be the Knox/Mellas family we'd be supposed to be describing as "dignified" and all the rest of it, and the Kerchers whose efforts to support their unjustly accused daughter were being vilified and reviled.

Let's just be a little bit realistic here. There are no saints, and the sinners aren't necessarily who you think they are.

Rolfe.

 

[smkovalinksy]

Have you read the nauseating bilge that's being written oven on PMF? I'm being sarcastic about that.

The Kerchers seem to be a perfectly ordinary family who have had a nightmare happen to them. That doesn't turn them into saints, and John Kercher has written some pretty questionable things. So has Stephanie come to that. Sympathy indeed, I wouldn't wish their situation on my worst enemy. But still, that doesn't make them perfect.

Meredith was a student abroad, much like Amanda. The two girls seem to have been friends, even if Amanda might have got on Meredith's nerves from time to time. Meredith thought a vibrator was embarrassing. I hope she really didn't think condoms were embarrassing, because she was sleeping with her drug dealer boyfriend whom she had only known a short time. She partied with the best of them, being said to be drunk on occassion, including Hallowe'en when she came in with the milk, went to bed without taking off her makeup and slept till noon. And she was smoking her boyfriend's cannabis.

See how you can make the truth sound really bad? Meredith was an ordinary student just like Amanda. She did the same things as Amanda, except Amanda seems to have had a nicer boyfriend. But by the prosecution's own standards, she also was "into sex, drugs and alcohol".

If the situation had played out only a little differently, it could have been Amanda who came home early to be raped and stabbed by Rudy Guede, and Meredith discovering the body to be accused by Miginini of murder. It could be the Knox/Mellas family we'd be supposed to be describing as "dignified" and all the rest of it, and the Kerchers whose efforts to support their unjustly accused daughter were being vilified and reviled.

Let's just be a little bit realistic here. There are no saints, and the sinners aren't necessarily who you think they are.

Rolfe.

Well, well said.

 

[icerat]

How religious is the Kercher family? I'm starting to wonder if they've fallen for the whole she-devil witch thing, and any talk of Merediths (typical student) behaviour is just confirmation that the she-devil corrupted her?