Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[bees]

I think for the Kerchers to be SO convinced that AK & RS are guilty, they must have been stuffed with lies from the prosecutors & police (in addition to what we've heard in court). I suspect that they've been told all sorts of things "in confidence" to convince them that the first trial was fair and a correct judgement.

They seem like a very intelligent family and therefore should be able to see very clearly by now that there's absolutely no evidence pointing at AK & RS being involved so I can only assume they've been fed other false information that overrides what would be a logical & rational conclusion.

 

[Wildhorses]

I realize Barbie is Barbie, but this tweet bothers me.

@BLNadeauBarbie Latza Nadeau
At very int'll dinner with journos frm italy, US, UK & #amandaknox verdict consensus is could go either way.

The journalists have seen Hellman and the jury. IF it's true the decision can go either way, I fear the worst. The Perugian legal system seems to run on emotion, intuition, and vengeance. IF this is a close call, that's the kind of stuff that has momentum.

Regarding the Kerchers addressing the jury: please say it ain't so. In the U.S., the family of the victim gets to weigh in on sentencing AFTER a verdict has been reached. NOT before.

Here's an unrelated, but curious, tweet:
@BLNadeauBarbie Latza Nadeau
This story gets more bizarre by moment. Lawyer associated w/case just called journo at table to get reax from us!

 

[LondonJohn]

I'm still intrigued by the whole Costagliola thing. I thought London John was fantasising when he said Costagliola was staying out of it, but it's beginning to look as if he was right.

This appeal was supposed to be a completely new do-over with not only a new judicial panel but also a new prosecutorial team. Mignini seems to have managed not just to weasel himself into the new team, entirely improperly, but to be dominating it. He was the one we heard from all the way through. Costagliola has said very little, and what he has said seems mainly to have been formal declarations of the prosecution's case.

So in effect, the defendants have been mauled all over again by exactly the same prosecutor who savaged them in the first-line trial. Same old schtick, really. Why?

We're supposed to believe this is such a complex case, the original prosecutor had to be retained. Because nobody else could get up to speed? That's ridiculous. It's nothing special. Why weren't prosecutors fighting to be assigned this case?

Now look at what happened. Did we get a rational, closely-argued case for guilt? Did we hell. We got the same mad rants, character assassination and frank vilification from the same perpetrator as the first time.

This seems to tell me two things. First, that there isn't a rational, closely-argued case to be made. And second, that they couldn't find anyone else prepared to deliver the mad rants, character assassination and frank vilification apart from Mignini. Costagliola really does seem to be holding himself at a distance from it all. Did he do any ranting or vilification? Not that I heard. And yet that was all the prosecution case consisted of.

I really think there's a rational case to be made that the prosecuting authorities know full well there's no case and Hellman is going to tell them to get on their bikes, and they're just letting Mignini have a last hoorah before he gets disbarred for the Monster of Florence stuff because withdrawing the case would be way too embarrassing for all concerned.

Rolfe. Hoping I'm right.

I very much think you are right. And without blowing my own trumpet, I think my prediction about Costagliola has been shown to be wholly accurate. It is extraordinary that the nominal lead prosecutor has been so conspicuously minimally involved in the single most important element of this trial: closing arguments. It can only suggest one of two things (or both): that Mignini has performed a coup d'etat on Costagliola, who has meekly acquiesced; and/or that Costagliola has been more than happy to take a back seat and watch Mignini/Comodi take all the "credit" for this case.

 

[billyryan]

I think the rescheduling had more to do with logistics and the media circus.

Rolfe.

Whatever is the reason for the delay until Monday,for any judge to give cameras access to the courtroom to film Amanda Knox's face when she is convicted wrongly for the second time would be inhuman

I believe that judge Hellmann is allowing cameras into the courtroom to film the moment a terrible wrong is righted

 

[NancyS]

Don't know if anyone in the UK just saw the Newsnight segment on the trial. It was very interesting, and was not about the case itself but about the extraordinary misogynistic and satanic rhetoric used to describe Knox (especially by Pacelli, who was quoted extensively). A UK academic and an Italian news correspondent (both female) both agreed that Italy is a highly sexist country, where women are still second-class citizens in most people's eyes, and where women are routinely categorised into the brackets of virgin, whore or she-devil.

I just watched this and thought it was very good. I'm glad that finally there seems to be some feminist voices coming out and questioning how offensive the nature of this trial has been to all women.

 

[Ammonitida]

Don't know if anyone in the UK just saw the Newsnight segment on the trial. It was very interesting, and was not about the case itself but about the extraordinary misogynistic and satanic rhetoric used to describe Knox (especially by Pacelli, who was quoted extensively). A UK academic and an Italian news correspondent (both female) both agreed that Italy is a highly sexist country, where women are still second-class citizens in most people's eyes, and where women are routinely categorised into the brackets of virgin, whore or she-devil.

One would think that Amanda would be receiving much more feminist support when you consider how laced this case is with misogyny. Such a shame that Patrick happened to be black.

 

[bees]

Don't know if anyone in the UK just saw the Newsnight segment on the trial. It was very interesting, and was not about the case itself but about the extraordinary misogynistic and satanic rhetoric used to describe Knox (especially by Pacelli, who was quoted extensively). A UK academic and an Italian news correspondent (both female) both agreed that Italy is a highly sexist country, where women are still second-class citizens in most people's eyes, and where women are routinely categorised into the brackets of virgin, whore or she-devil.

Not just Italy - anywhere that religion is still a major cultural influence. It's the same with strongly Catholic countries, fundamentalist Protestant communities, Islamic countries & communities...

 

[HumanityBlues]

New article in the Daily Mail. Quote from Migmig: "‘Amanda has still never seen those photographs and to me that says a lot. I think she remains to this day shocked and ashamed of what she did. That is why she covered Meredith’s body with the duvet. Only a woman would have done that.’

This guy is soooo stupid. I would like one guilter to actually argue why the bolded above is a fair assumption.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...arely-afford-attend-appeal.html#ixzz1ZTbkPPHr

 

[LondonJohn]

I realize Barbie is Barbie, but this tweet bothers me.

@BLNadeauBarbie Latza Nadeau
At very int'll dinner with journos frm italy, US, UK & #amandaknox verdict consensus is could go either way.

The journalists have seen Hellman and the jury. IF it's true the decision can go either way, I fear the worst. The Perugian legal system seems to run on emotion, intuition, and vengeance. IF this is a close call, that's the kind of stuff that has momentum.

Regarding the Kerchers addressing the jury: please say it ain't so. In the U.S., the family of the victim gets to weigh in on sentencing AFTER a verdict has been reached. NOT before.

Here's an unrelated, but curious, tweet:
@BLNadeauBarbie Latza Nadeau
This story gets more bizarre by moment. Lawyer associated w/case just called journo at table to get reax from us!

The last tweet you quote is nothing more than narcissism from the lawyer in question. I have an idea who that lawyer might be....

Regarding the outcome of the appeal trial, I am still prepared to state that I have total confidence that Hellmann's court will announce acquittals. And this is not just mindless grandstanding or "shock tactics" on my behalf: I truly think that all the evidence available adds up to only one possible outcome. For Hellmann's court to hand down guilty verdicts, given what we know, would be an utterly perverse and completely irrational act. I wasn't interested in the case at the time of the Massei trial and verdict, but looking back, I think I would have been unable to call the verdict given what was thought to be known at that time.

To put it another way, if I were playing no-limits Texas hold 'em poker (I'm quite a big online player, but almost always of limit poker), I would have no hesitation whatsoever in moving all-in on a bet of acquittal in Hellmann's court. I wonder if anyone on the pro-guilt side would want to call my raise?

 

[DarkStar2011]

I realize Barbie is Barbie, but this tweet bothers me.

@BLNadeauBarbie Latza Nadeau
At very int'll dinner with journos frm italy, US, UK & #amandaknox verdict consensus is could go either way.

It's not just Barbie; Daniel Sandford of the BBC (one of the more clear-headed journalists covering the trial) tweeted the exact same thing earlier today.

I think people's opinions here that it's a slam-dunk for acquittal are really a bit of wishful thinking. We don't know what the verdict will be.

 

[yeti101]

New article in the Daily Mail. Quote from Migmig: "‘Amanda has still never seen those photographs and to me that says a lot. I think she remains to this day shocked and ashamed of what she did. That is why she covered Meredith’s body with the duvet. Only a woman would have done that. I would like one guilter to actually argue why the bolded above is a fair assumption.

i don't think it is. He sounds desperate

There's legitimate reasons why knox would have covered the body/face. Being a woman isn't one.

 

[Rolfe]

I see the rumours about the Kerchers having difficulties getting a flight are now being translated into the Kerchers not being able to afford the fare to Perugia for the verdict. Helped along by Mignini I guess, contrasting their alleged poverty with the Knox alleged private jet.

I don't think I believe that they're so cash-strapped. And how much is Mignini being paid for all this? Could he not spring for a few air tickets? But now the PMF.org have decided they are the ones who are going to raise the money for their "dignified", perfect, saintly family to fly to Italy. Even people who themselves are living hand to mouth are volunteering their widow's mite.

I wonder if the Kerchers will have the grace to be embarrassed? But the more the PMFers do this, the more I want to throw up, I'm afraid.

ETA: Now the gorge is really rising.... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ox-trial-Is-Foxy-walk-free-make-millions.html

ETA again: How's this for journalistic accuracy?

Crime scene: A view of the house where Meredith Kercher was found. She shared with Amanda Knox, her former Italian boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito and Ivorian Rudy Guede who were convicted and jailed in 2009 for the murder

Rolfe.

 

[Ammonitida]

You know, I must be a bad person, but this sort of thing is really making me puke.

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewto...69f67def0b36d4a524164684c3&start=2750#p102434

Rolfe.

I just can't bring myself to click on that hate site.

 

[charlatan]

According to the esteemed thinkers at PMF, prison life for Amanda is just like university. She's having a grand old time, folks. That she's not far into her post-graduate studies provides further proof of her lack of character.

I'm personally very disappointed by this. As a former devotee of 20th century Marxist scholars I was rather looking forward to Amanda's 1500 page critique of Antonio Gramsci's Prison Notebooks^WP.

 

[Bob001]

... If the Supreme Court were to decide that judicial/legal errors rendered the appeal court acquittal verdict unsound, then it would simply order a retrial at the appeal court level. ...

So a defendant in Italy can be acquitted, retried and convicted? They have nothing like double jeopardy protection? Theoretically, the prosecutor could keep retrying someone until he gets a guilty verdict?

 

[Rolfe]

I just can't bring myself to click on that hate site.

Oh, believe me, the love is far more nauseating than the hate.

Rolfe.

 

[Ammonitida]

New article in the Daily Mail. Quote from Migmig: "‘Amanda has still never seen those photographs and to me that says a lot. I think she remains to this day shocked and ashamed of what she did. That is why she covered Meredith’s body with the duvet. Only a woman would have done that.’

This guy is soooo stupid. I would like one guilter to actually argue why the bolded above is a fair assumption.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...arely-afford-attend-appeal.html#ixzz1ZTbkPPHr

Amazing he could say that in a European court room and not get penalized somehow.

Imagine here in United States, a prosecutor saying, "Only a Mexican would have done that".

 

[Rolfe]

So a defendant in Italy can be acquitted, retried and convicted? They have nothing like double jeopardy protection? Theoretically, the prosecutor could keep retrying someone until he gets a guilty verdict?

No. If the Supreme Court confirms a not-guilty verdict, that's it. End of.

I wish we still had the prohibition on double jeopardy. We did away with it last year, and it's getting very scary in my view.

Rolfe.

 

[LondonJohn]

It's not just Barbie; Daniel Sandford of the BBC (one of the more clear-headed journalists covering the trial) tweeted the exact same thing earlier today.

I think people's opinions here that it's a slam-dunk for acquittal are really a bit of wishful thinking. We don't know what the verdict will be.

No, of course nobody (outside of Hellmann and the judicial panel) knows what the verdict will be. But in my opinion it's entirely possible to analyse all the evidence, known facts, words, actions and implied meanings of all the protagonists in the trial, and to reach the firm conclusion that acquittals are inevitable.

You have to remember that the situation is very different in regard to the public pronouncements of the journalists covering the trial. I think that no journalist - especially one like Sandford who has only seemingly become acquainted with the trial at the 11th hour - is going to stick his/her neck out one way or the other. It's just too big a journalistic risk to take. It's at this point that journalists hide behind their umbrella of "only reporting the facts as they see them". Not only that, but it's also pretty much journalism 101 to not try to call the verdict of a trial. It's viewed as a compromising of journalistic objectivity/integrity for any reportage journalist to do so. Sometimes you will see opinion pieces that employ more (but not much) speculation about verdicts. But you'll essentially never see court correspondents making any predictions - regardless of whether or not they have any personal views on the likelihood of a certain verdict.

 

[komponisto]

I think people's opinions here that it's a slam-dunk for acquittal are really a bit of wishful thinking. We don't know what the verdict will be.

No, we dont "know". But we're not in the dark either!

Don't fall for the fallacy of gray. We may not be able to be 99% confident, but we can be, say, 75% confident (as I am).

The signs point toward acquittal. Yes, a surprise could still happen. But there's no question at this point what the surprising outcome would be versus the expected outcome.

FWIW, the prosecution's best chance is on the Lumumba slander charge against Knox. If there is a conviction on that, that will be a hint that Hellmann's court isn't entirely convinced of Knox and Sollecito's innocence (despite perhaps believing -- correctly -- that they are legally compelled to acquit on the murder charge). But if that's all they were able to get, I'm not sure I would even consider that a prosecution victory (nor would it count for my bet with DarthRotor), since it would result in Knox and Sollecito's immediate release (due in Knox's case to her having already been in prison longer than any sentence for that crime would require).