Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Saw this link on PMF : Hope the jury does not share this Italian misconception:

http://www.aciclico.com/approfondimenti/amanda-knox-un-milione-di-dollari-per-cambiare-immagine.html

That's Mignini speaking, not Italy, and he has always been the ultimate source for the 'Marriott-Gogerty PR Supertanker of Doom' conspiracy. It looks like he gets his figures from PMF, though he hasn't logged on lately to find it's been imagined up to two million now.

Where does he think that money is coming from? Where does he see it being used? What evidence is there it exists? Does he really think anyone would have to pay a million to stomp a slug?

"Men at some time are masters of their fates:
The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves...."
 
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Lets dumb things down

I'm not really sure what you're even talking about, but is this the first legal case you've followed? You seem to be having trouble understanding simple concepts.

Edit: Oh I see what you're saying.....kind of. You're not very articulate in making your point unfortunately. What you fail to understand is, my argument remains just as valid per the NUMEROUS and many other examples I keep listing.

Do try and keep up next time Padroney, and work on trying to make some sense.

Your previous arguments about what Prosecutor Comodi said in Court were inaccurate and misleading.
You argument was in simpleton language, just plain wrong.
"w-r-o-n-g"

I find your argument's copycat talking point about my arguments not makings sense and being useless, to be very demeaning, and impolite.
If the Mods accept them, so be it.
I do not.
I also do not intend to taunt the Membership Agreement by descending to that level.

Edit:
Should you find these arguments to be so "useless" and so taxing upon your personal comprehension skills.....
Suggestion: i-g-n-o-r-e.
Ask some of your 'atta boy pile on pals' how to accomplish that
Hope that simplicity of sentence structure meets your personal errr...levels.
 
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Talking points, whether valid or not, like ""oh yeah, well if the trial was held in the US, she would be facing the death penalty" have no place in court----especially not in closing arguments. It has nothing to do with evidence adduced at trial. I'm pretty amazed. (And yes it is a stupid talking point. One of many)

A very common trap that many commentators fall into -- whatever their opinion on the case -- is to (perhaps unintentionally) try to apply cultural assumptions from their own country (e.g. Anglo-Saxon legal practices) to Italy.

For example, people will often say something like "oh, surely X will be found in contempt of court for saying that!" -- without realizing, apparently, that this is a foreign country, and so there very well may not be any such thing as "contempt of court". It's an American legal concept (and thus presumably British too, since American law historically derives from British law), which may or may not have some Italian analogue or equivalent.

More generally, Italian society has different conventions and mores from American or British society. You cannot expect that something that would be considered "outrageous" in one country will also be considered "outrageous" in another. I think LondonJohn made this mistake earlier with regard to Comodi's comments about the court being against them. An American or Briton might gasp at the notion of a prosecutor impugning the integrity of the judge; but Italy is a country where people routinely shout insults at each other over dinner, interrupt speakers in formal lecture settings, and don't apologize for making loud noises when they drop dishes on the ground. For all I know a statement like Comodi's could just be considered part of the normal give-and-take of public discourse. (Now perhaps Hellmann could sue Comodi for "slander"; but have her removed from the case? You've got to be kidding! -- an Italian might say.)

Similarly, these complaints about closing arguments may not make any sense in an Italian context (they might, but it's not to be taken for granted). Who says that closing arguments have to restricted to "the evidence adduced at trial"? Well, that's the rule in the American system. But an Italian might say, "It's the closing argument, not the evidence phase!" and expect it to be obvious that closing arguments are the place for strong, emotionally-charged rhetoric rather than dispassionate presentation of evidence (which has its own place earlier in the trial).

How often do lawyers break down in tears during American and British trials? Not very often, I would guess. Yet it's happened more than once in this very case. We're dealing with a different culture here.
 
Your previous arguments about what Prosecutor Comodi said in Court were inaccurate and misleading.
You argument was in simpleton language, just plain wrong.
"w-r-o-n-g"

I find your argument's copycat talking point about my arguments not makings sense and being useless, to be very demeaning, and impolite.
If the Mods accept them, so be it.
I do not.
I also do not intend to taunt the Membership Agreement by descending to that level.

Edit:
Should you find these arguments to be so "useless" and so taxing upon your personal comprehension skills.....
Suggestion: i-g-n-o-r-e.
Ask some of your 'atta boy pile on pals' how to accomplish that
Hope that simplicity of sentence structure meets your personal errr...levels.

Ya anyways, you obviously weren't following the discussion very carefully. Try again maybe.
 
I think he is always at www.perugiashock.com.


Here's Frank Sfarzo's restored site, after being closed down by Mignini. Frank is an Italian who started blogging on the case as it started, and has been doing so for almost four years now, despite drawing the ire of Mignini and the Polizia di Stato in Italy.


Thanks, when I looked I could only find a copy of the old version, and articles about his being closed down.

That's an extremely powerful article. If it's a fair representation of what CDV said in court, the jury have been given a lot to think about.

Rolfe.
 
A very common trap that many commentators fall into -- whatever their opinion on the case -- is to (perhaps unintentionally) try to apply cultural assumptions from their own country (e.g. Anglo-Saxon legal practices) to Italy.

For example, people will often say something like "oh, surely X will be found in contempt of court for saying that!" -- without realizing, apparently, that this is a foreign country, and so there very well may not be any such thing as "contempt of court". It's an American legal concept (and thus presumably British too, since American law historically derives from British law), which may or may not have some Italian analogue or equivalent.

More generally, Italian society has different conventions and mores from American or British society. You cannot expect that something that would be considered "outrageous" in one country will also be considered "outrageous" in another. I think LondonJohn made this mistake earlier with regard to Comodi's comments about the court being against them. An American or Briton might gasp at the notion of a prosecutor impugning the integrity of the judge; but Italy is a country where people routinely shout insults at each other over dinner, interrupt speakers in formal lecture settings, and don't apologize for making loud noises when they drop dishes on the ground. For all I know a statement like Comodi's could just be considered part of the normal give-and-take of public discourse. (Now perhaps Hellmann could sue Comodi for "slander"; but have her removed from the case? You've got to be kidding! -- an Italian might say.)

Similarly, these complaints about closing arguments may not make any sense in an Italian context (they might, but it's not to be taken for granted). Who says that closing arguments have to restricted to "the evidence adduced at trial"? Well, that's the rule in the American system. But an Italian might say, "It's the closing argument, not the evidence phase!" and expect it to be obvious that closing arguments are the place for strong, emotionally-charged rhetoric rather than dispassionate presentation of evidence (which has its own place earlier in the trial).

How often do lawyers break down in tears during American and British trials? Not very often, I would guess. Yet it's happened more than once in this very case. We're dealing with a different culture here.

Komponisto,

The problem with your argument is that you assume my disbelief is based on and relies on a "cultural assumption" rather than basic principles of fairness that are universal. You appear to infer that disbelief over evidence that has been presented as evidence and adduced at trial is allowed to constantly be referred to is simply falling into the trap of "cultural bias" without acknowledging that are fundamental and principled policy reasons for why these things aren't allowed. If those are sound policies, they can be applied in many contexts across the globe.
 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYfuzSL4D_A
Can someone, please, tell us what exactly Ghirga said ? It made Amanda chuckle along with the whole court.

It starts @ 0:53 min
Although I understand Italian, the audio is very poor. It sounds like he's referring to Curatolo, mocking how he went to the police station pushing a pram and seemed like an ailing Al Capone. I think it might be some reference to the film "The Untouchables", but as I don't remember much about that film, I can't work it out, sorry.
 
Komponisto,

The problem with your argument is that you assume my disbelief is based on and relies on a "cultural assumption" rather than basic principles of fairness that are universal.

That's not a problem with my argument; it is my argument!

The Italian system may or may not be less fair (in some externally reasoned, "objective" sense) than other systems on balance. But either way, you should not be surprised to find that your own idea of "fairness" is not shared in a foreign culture.

(Now there are some assumptions that I think are safe to make: for example, I've argued many times on general "common-sense"/"fairness" grounds that it would be absurd to think that the rulings in Guede's case could possibly constrain those in Knox and Sollecito's, given that the cases are separate and Knox and Sollecito weren't represented at Guede's trial. But detailed rules about what's allowed to be said by lawyers in court? Forget about it!)
 
That's not a problem with my argument; it is my argument!

The Italian system may or may not be less fair (in some externally reasoned, "objective" sense) than other systems on balance. But either way, you should not be surprised to find that your own idea of "fairness" is not shared in a foreign culture.

(Now there are some assumptions that I think are safe to make: for example, I've argued many times on general "common-sense"/"fairness" grounds that it would be absurd to think that the rulings in Guede's case could possibly constrain those in Knox and Sollecito's, given that the cases are separate and Knox and Sollecito weren't represented at Guede's trial. But detailed rules about what's allowed to be said by lawyers in court? Forget about it!)

Ha I see your point now. Well, then credit my all too high expectations of the Italian Justice system then for my surprise. Yes, you are correct :).
 
Hey all, you got a noob here
I'm quite a bit late, as there is only a few days left for the verdict, but I wanted to get my 2 cents in.

I have recently become interested in this case, and have found this message board and the ones the "guilters" inhabit. I am still undecided in Knox and Sollecito's guilt or innocence, however I do lean towards innocence. For one thing I am sure about is the prosecution and the police force should be the most to blame for the injustice for Meredith and her family. They botched this case from the start, and let it spiral out of control. The most perturbing for me is not really the shockingly horrid and unprofessional forensics cleanup, but the way they have handled the individual EVERYONE admits to be at least one of the killers, Rudy Guede. 16 years he was sentenced, and with good behavior he can be out in a few years. An emotionally unstable man that brutally raped and murdered an innocent young woman will be set free, able to rape and murder again. Is that true justice for Meredith and her family? Is that true justice for Italy? Oh but that's not all, now the prosecution is portraying Guede and some innocent naivete that got trapped in the she devil ways of evil witch foxy knoxy.

john_hooper John Hooper
Mignini also plays race card. Guede "the poor black man" will pay the price, but not #amandaknox or her boyfriend

He will pay the price? How? For only serving 5 years in prison for rape and murder?
 
Welcome to the forum, BaileyBell! :)

You make an excellent point.

Rolfe.
 
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A very common trap that many commentators fall into -- whatever their opinion on the case -- is to (perhaps unintentionally) try to apply cultural assumptions from their own country (e.g. Anglo-Saxon legal practices) to Italy.

For example, people will often say something like "oh, surely X will be found in contempt of court for saying that!" -- without realizing, apparently, that this is a foreign country, and so there very well may not be any such thing as "contempt of court". It's an American legal concept (and thus presumably British too, since American law historically derives from British law), which may or may not have some Italian analogue or equivalent.

More generally, Italian society has different conventions and mores from American or British society. You cannot expect that something that would be considered "outrageous" in one country will also be considered "outrageous" in another. I think LondonJohn made this mistake earlier with regard to Comodi's comments about the court being against them. An American or Briton might gasp at the notion of a prosecutor impugning the integrity of the judge; but Italy is a country where people routinely shout insults at each other over dinner, interrupt speakers in formal lecture settings, and don't apologize for making loud noises when they drop dishes on the ground. For all I know a statement like Comodi's could just be considered part of the normal give-and-take of public discourse. (Now perhaps Hellmann could sue Comodi for "slander"; but have her removed from the case? You've got to be kidding! -- an Italian might say.)

Similarly, these complaints about closing arguments may not make any sense in an Italian context (they might, but it's not to be taken for granted). Who says that closing arguments have to restricted to "the evidence adduced at trial"? Well, that's the rule in the American system. But an Italian might say, "It's the closing argument, not the evidence phase!" and expect it to be obvious that closing arguments are the place for strong, emotionally-charged rhetoric rather than dispassionate presentation of evidence (which has its own place earlier in the trial).

How often do lawyers break down in tears during American and British trials? Not very often, I would guess. Yet it's happened more than once in this very case. We're dealing with a different culture here.

I'll admit to being ignorant when it comes to Italian culture here, but there is something I don't understand.

1) If what I highlighted in blue is true, and Italians are used to people yelling insults at them, why all the slander suits?
2) Re: #1. If it is so horrible to slander someone, so that it is a criminal offense to do so, then why is it OK to say whatever they want about the defendants in court, including name calling, rumors, etc.?

Not a challenge, I just don't understand, and these things seem contradictory. If the idea was that Italians are used to hurling insults at each other, and are not as offended by this practice as, say, Americans, this would make sense to me.

Thanks!!
 
I wonder if it was wise for Mignini to talk about "fairy tales". If anything sounds like a fairy tale in this saga it's this bizarre story of a couple of middle-class students who had only known each other a few days (and barely had a common language) leaving their love-nest on a chilly evening, hooking up with someone they barely knew, and the three of them ganging up to murder the girl's room-mate. And that's not even mentioning the two students staying behind to stage a burglary in the exact modus operandi of their acquaintance, and then magically cleaning up all their own DNA but leaving the acquaintance's. And all the rest.

Start talking fairy-tales, and people might take that thought a bit further.

Rolfe.
 
So if she goes home after she's been cleared, she's "fleeing"? Are the jury that gullible?

Rolfe.
 
This is what was stated by one of the PM during the trial of Amanda Knox. The lawyer said that the Knox family had spent a million dollars to change the image of the girl and influence the jury. "Have you ever seen a defendant who takes a large public relations firm?" It asks the prosecutor Giuliano Mignini, while behind the bench the family denied. "Behind her was a communication campaign for a million dollars." (HERE)
___________________________


The myth originated in an Italian news story, or editorial, over a year ago. The author misunderstood what the Knox/Mellas family was saying, in English, when they estimated that their total costs amounted to over a million dollars.

///
 
I'll admit to being ignorant when it comes to Italian culture here, but there is something I don't understand.

1) If what I highlighted in blue is true, and Italians are used to people yelling insults at them, why all the slander suits?
2) Re: #1. If it is so horrible to slander someone, so that it is a criminal offense to do so, then why is it OK to say whatever they want about the defendants in court, including name calling, rumors, etc.?

Not a challenge, I just don't understand, and these things seem contradictory. If the idea was that Italians are used to hurling insults at each other, and are not as offended by this practice as, say, Americans, this would make sense to me.

Thanks!!

I find it difficult to understand myself; these are just observations (and observations of stereotypes), and I'd probably better leave further explanation or justification to Italians themselves, of which I'm not one. They may not even agree with my characterization of them. (Especially since their society is as far from homogenous as any other country with 60 million inhabitants.)
 
From Telegraph piece cited above:

"We know what will happen if you absolve. She will escape overseas and we won't be able to do anything about it," Giuliano Mignini, the chief prosecutor, told the jury in the court in Perugia where Knox is appealing her 26-year jail sentence.
 
It's bonkers. He's saying, you may think she's innocent, but convict her anyway because if you don't she'll go home.

Rolfe.
 
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