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Confederate flag causing a flap in SC

Redtail said:
How's that gonna work for us mixed people? More of us every day.
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The standard line such people use is that people of mixed "race" are abominations that weaken both "races." There's not a remote scientific basis for that, of course (if anything, the reverse), but that's how it goes.
 
ponderingturtle said:
I think it has to do with proximity, if they are around but use separate facilities that is segregation, separation is sending them away to somewhere else.
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Maybe we could send the white separatists back to Africa, where they originally came from, so they wouldn't need to be around all these black people.

Wait...

It's complicated.

:rolleyes:


(Edited to add, just to be clear: The joke is that everyone, pretty much, originally came from Africa, anthropologically speaking)
 
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sarge said:
It is impossible to fly this flag (in the US) without knowing that it is a symbol of bigotry.
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I disagree. Seems to me, for a lot of people, it's more a symbol of "You can't tell me what to do or what to say or what to wear, and you're not going to tell me I can't fly a flag my ancestors [supposedly] fought under".

It's like the whole "They're coming to take away our guns" thing. People push back against that if they believe it's true (regardless of the fact that it isn't).

And folks get ticked off if you try to tell them that this symbol of Southern identity -- which is what it has become for lots of folks -- is now forbidden.
 
Drachasor said:
The standard line such people use is that people of mixed "race" are abominations that weaken both "races." There's not a remote scientific basis for that, of course (if anything, the reverse), but that's how it goes.
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That's a relief!

I am an expert at getting married, but it appears that my being married technique still needs work. My second wife was of an African American father and a Hispanic (mostly caucasian) mother. She was stunningly beautiful. Out of my league, really. Other than her physical appearance, she seemed to be the same as "normal" people.
 
ponderingturtle said:
I think it has to do with proximity, if they are around but use separate facilities that is segregation, separation is sending them away to somewhere else.
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I wonder how the White Nationalists plan to accomplish this. If asking nicely for them to leave doesn't work, do you use force? That might be a problem, consisering how integrated the military and most law enforcement agencies are today.

What's the plan, Magz?
 
Piggy said:
I disagree.
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You cannot, unless you misunderstood what I wrote.

Seems to me, for a lot of people, it's more a symbol of "You can't tell me what to do or what to say or what to wear, and you're not going to tell me I can't fly a flag my ancestors [supposedly] fought under".

It's like the whole "They're coming to take away our guns" thing. People push back against that if they believe it's true (regardless of the fact that it isn't).

And folks get ticked off if you try to tell them that this symbol of Southern identity -- which is what it has become for lots of folks -- is now forbidden.
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It is not possible for a person in the US to be unaware that the Confederate Flag is a symbol of racism. It makes no difference at all that some people flying the flag are doing so for a different reason - the flag remains a symbol of racism. That is what I actually said.

I suspect that what you interpreted my comments to mean was some form of "If, for some people, the flag stands for racism, then everyone that flies the flag is doing so in support of racism and for no other reason".
 
Tricky said:
I wonder how the White Nationalists plan to accomplish this. If asking nicely for them to leave doesn't work, do you use force? That might be a problem, consisering how integrated the military and most law enforcement agencies are today.

What's the plan, Magz?
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Without the ability to separate other races from his location, his plan can only be to separate himself from where other races are. The Moon is not logistically feasible. I suggest he find some part of Antarctica and settle there.
 
sarge said:
It is not possible for a person in the US to be unaware that the Confederate Flag is a symbol of racism.
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Wrong.

I would agree that it's impossible for a person in the US not to be aware that it is considered a symbol of racism by many people.

That's not the same as being unaware that it "is" a symbol of racism.
 
Piggy said:
Wrong.

I would agree that it's impossible for a person in the US not to be aware that it is considered a symbol of racism by many people.

That's not the same as being unaware that it "is" a symbol of racism.
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Nope. That the flag is a symbol of racism is absolute, and is not dependant on any particular persons intentions for it to be a symbol of racism.

Any person that displays this flag is displaying a symbol of racism regardless of their personal views on racism. While it is possible (however unlikely) that a person might display this flag with no intention to celebrate the South's racist past, that intent (necessarily ignorant of history) does not make the flag less a symbol of racism.
 
I wonder about people who display flags in their front yard in the first place.

These are landscaped-handicapped individuals.
 
sarge said:
Nope. That the flag is a symbol of racism is absolute, and is not dependant on any particular persons intentions for it to be a symbol of racism.
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It's not possible for a symbol to have any "absolute" meaning independent of what people think about it.
 
Piggy said:
It's not possible for a symbol to have any "absolute" meaning independent of what people think about it.
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I'm not sure I agree with that, Piggy. A crucifix is a symbol with pretty absolute meaning. As is the star of david, or the crescent. A National flag is also an example of a symbol with absolute meaning.

That said - I'm not entirely sure I could agree that the Confederate flag carries absolute meaning, although I've been intrigued to read the various points of view from all the posters in this thread.

I just can't wrap my head around those Duke boys, Daisy & Jesse being racist.
 
Piggy said:
It's not possible for a symbol to have any "absolute" meaning independent of what people think about it.
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A flag is a symbol of racism as soon as anyone uses it as a symbol of racism. A flag is an absolute symbol of racism as soon as everyone recognizes that it symbolizes racism. This symbol was not stolen by racists - its initial use was universally racist, and nothing has occured to change that fact. It is not possible to display this flag in a manner that seperates it from its racist symbolism.
 
Antiquehunter said:
I'm not sure I agree with that, Piggy. A crucifix is a symbol with pretty absolute meaning. As is the star of david, or the crescent. A National flag is also an example of a symbol with absolute meaning.

That said - I'm not entirely sure I could agree that the Confederate flag carries absolute meaning, although I've been intrigued to read the various points of view from all the posters in this thread.

I just can't wrap my head around those Duke boys, Daisy & Jesse being racist.
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You're mistaking very widespread usage with inherent absolute meaning.

For some people, for instance, the Star of David is the symbol of an international conspiracy.

And if you've never seen the Ethiopian flag, then it's not a symbol of anything for you. And if we discover an ancient national symbol in a dig somewhere, but we've never seen it before and don't know what it is, then it has lost its meaning.

In my experience, the St. Andrew's cross is often used as a symbol of racism, but in other circumstances it is indeed a symbol of cultural heritage and a symbol of resistance against a perceived attempt to stifle speech, insult people's memory, and marginalize a culture.

And if anyone wants to say that it's inherently a symbol of racism, being the former symbol of a nation that depended upon, openly embraced, and legally enforced slavery, then early US flags will have to be counted as such, as well. But they are not.
 
Antiquehunter said:
I just can't wrap my head around those Duke boys, Daisy & Jesse being racist.
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TV displays any number of things that require me to suspend disbelief.

A "real" Duke family (the name itself is ironic in this context), in the deep south of the mid-70s, driving around in a car called the "General Lee", bearing a Confederate Flag and playing "Dixie" when the horn blows - not one chance of them not being white supremecists. Even stereotypical rednecks are not that dumb.
 
I would say "nothing is absolute". A symbol means what it means to that person and it is quite possible that a person may be unaware of the history of the Confederacy. They might know nothing more than The Dukes of Hazzard. Truly, I know people this ignorant.

That being said, the Stars and Bars is so strongly associated with the Civil War in the US that only a desperately ignorant American would be unaware of it's significance or the reasons for the Civil War. Unless you are desperately ignorant, when you display the Confederate Battle Standard, you are aware that it is almost universally (in the US) considered a symbol of racism. By displaying it, you accept that you will be self-identifying as a racist, even if you are not. If you are okay with that, I can accept that you may not be a racist, but you are certainly insensitive to the problems of racism since you choose to keep those old wounds open.

If you are one of those tiny minority of desperately ignorant people, I give you a pass. You have bigger problems than being a racist.
 
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