Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Let's suspend this discussion.
The court is back in action.
Barbie Nadeau started to tweet now.


BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
First up Carlo Dalla Vedova for #amandaknox She is innocent and has spent more than 1,000 days in prison.


So I wonder who Knox's lead lawyer is? It's somewhat usual for the lawyer who's considered the lead to be the first one to speak in a closing argument. Glad we've put that small issue to bed now, eh pilot?

I expect today to be a pretty tight, well-structured argument, with no big surprises. And I expect acquittals to ensue on Saturday (or Monday at the latest). I won't be around for much of today, but I look forward to catching up when I can later on.

Oh, and a final quick word on the issue of Sollecito and his partial attempt to break down Meredith's door before the police arrived. I note that I've been lampooned elsewhere for my theory on it, based on Knox's recollection of Knox/Sollecito being "panicked" well before the police arrived. But I think some people have failed to take one important thing into account: it's very likely that Knox's post-facto statements about "panicking" about Meredith before the police's arrival were actually post-facto rationalisations. In other words, Knox was exaggerating (probably subconsciously) in her recall of the events of 2nd November, because she now knew that Meredith was lying dead behind her bedroom door. This is a very well-known phenomenon, and was also perfectly applicable to the post-facto recall of Filomena and some of Meredith's English friends, who tailored their recall to fit a subsequent belief in Knox's guilt.

And further indication that Knox was engaging in post-facto exaggeration in her recall is provided by the testimony of the officers, who essentially said that Knox and Sollecito were concerned but not panicked when they (the police) arrived at some point close to 1pm. Have none of the pro-guilt commentators stopped to ask themselves one simple question: Why would Knox not have appeared extremely panicked to the police upon their arrival, if she either was truly panicking or she was pretending (if she was a murderer) to be in a panicked state?

The logical answer to this question is that neither Knox nor Sollecito were in a panicked state (or pretending to be in a panicked state) before the police arrived. They were concerned, yes - to the point where Knox had tried to see if she could climb round to see in Meredith's window, and Sollecito had made an effort to force the door. But they were not at that point panicking to the degree of causing physical damage to the door. And Knox's subsequent recollection of their emotions between around 12pm and 1pm on 2nd November was coloured by the fact that by the time she was making her recollection she had the added knowledge that Meredith had been murdered. Therefore, Knox imperfectly chose to recall that she and Sollecito were "panicking" during that time, since it seemed to her to be more appropriate in the light of subsequent events.

The truth is that nobody - Knox and Sollecito included - could have reasonable predicted what horror would be discovered behind Meredith's bedroom door up until the moment it was broken down. And I think it's entirely reasonable to suggest that the horror of the discovery had the effect of colouring Knox's recall of events in the time leading up to the discovery. In short, I think it's very likely that in a post-facto recall of events, Knox exaggerated the true nature of her and Sollecito's emotions before the police arrived.

Anyhow, gotta run. Look forward to catching up later.....
 
BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
CDV talking about total silence of #meredithkercher family. #amandaknox Smart of him to focus some attn on real victim.

Idiot. Amanda's been locked away and viewed as depraved and vicious for 1422 days. This isn't 'real'?
 
More updates, lots of twitterers in court today

KIRO7Seattle #AmandaKnox back in court as attorneys make final plea for release. KIRO 7's Monique Ming Laven is in court- live reports from Italy 5a-7a.
2 minutes ago

BBCDanielS #amandaknox friend Madison Paxton making copious notes. Family having extracts translated by TV producer.

BLNadeau CDV starting on list of errors made in the investigation, trial and treatment of #amandaknox
 
BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
CDV talking about total silence of #meredithkercher family. #amandaknox Smart of him to focus some attn on real victim.

This isn't 'real'?

Compared to Meredith (and this comparison was being made) no. Amanda's "victimhood" is not in the same ballpark.
 
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Compared to Meredith (and this comparison was being made) no. Amanda's "victimhood" is not in the same ballpark.

Yes, and the person responsible was jailed.
What about those responsible for victimising Amanda? (whether or not it's in the same ballpark). The people responsible have not only put Amanda and Raffaelle and their families through hell but also the Kerchers. Completely unnecessarily. If they hadn't pursued these baseless prosecutions, the Kerchers would have had closure years ago.

I agree there is a huge disparity between the horrors and indignities suffered by Meredith and Amanda.
But Amanda will have to live her whole life knowing (some) people see her as a monster, as 'dirty' on the inside, as having gotten away with murder. She has been violated (and again not in the same way or the extent to which Meredith was violated) over and over again.
 
Compared to Meredith (and this comparison was being made) no. Amanda's "victimhood" is not in the same ballpark.


Very true. And your point is, caller? That we shouldn't be concerned about the heinous injustice done to Amanda and Raffaele, because something even worse happened to Meredith?

What was done to Meredith cannot be undone and cannot be rectified. There is nothing anyone can do to make it up to her, or mitigate its effect on her. What has been done to Raffaele and Amamda can be, if not undone, at least rectified and mitigated and compensated.

Your implied criticism of attempts to move in that direction does you no credit. One innocent life was snuffed out. That doesn't make it OK to destroy two more innocent lives, or prevent comment on that issue.

Rolfe
 
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Yes, and the person responsible was jailed.
What about those responsible for victimising Amanda? (whether or not it's in the same ballpark). The people responsible have not only put Amanda and Raffaelle and their families through hell but also the Kerchers. Completely unnecessarily. If they hadn't pursued these baseless prosecutions, the Kerchers would have had closure years ago.

I agree there is a huge disparity between the horrors and indignities suffered by Meredith and Amanda.
But Amanda will have to live her whole life knowing (some) people see her as a monster, as 'dirty' on the inside, as having gotten away with murder. She has been violated (and again not in the same way or the extent to which Meredith was violated) over and over again.

Yes, Amanda has suffered, rightly or not, and will suffer in future, and if people left it at that I have no argument. But you responding to a comment that Meredith was the true victim, thereby comparing the two, whether you like it or not.

Some people on this thread have actually "argued" that Amanda is a bigger victim. I will take issue with comments like this.
 
Very true. And your point is, caller? That we shouldn't be concerned about the heinous injustice done to Amanda and Raffaele, because something even worse happened to Meredith?

What was done to Meredith cannot be undone and cannot be rectified. There is nothing anyone can do to make it up to her, or mitigate its effect on her. What has been done to Raffaele and Amamda can be, if not undone, at least rectified and mitigated and compensated.

Your implied criticism of attempts to move in that direction does you no credit.

Rolfe

See the comment I made to bri1. I was talking about comparing the two. Your implied defence of those who put the suffering of the two on the same planet does you no credit.
 
Yes, Amanda has suffered, rightly or not, and will suffer in future, and if people left it at that I have no argument. But you responding to a comment that Meredith was the true victim, thereby comparing the two, whether you like it or not.

Some people on this thread have actually "argued" that Amanda is a bigger victim. I will take issue with comments like this.

My problem was with Barbie saying that Meredith's victimhood was 'real' in order to imply that Amanda's is fake. My point was that Amanda is also a victim, and the fact that Meredith suffered much worse does not negate the reality of Amanda's victimisation.
 
My problem was with Barbie saying that Meredith's victimhood was 'real' in order to imply that Amanda's is fake.

Come off it. There are multiple victims in many tragedies. Some are more "real", in an obviously colloquial sense, than others. I surely don't need to give examples.

I have no hesitation in declaring Meredith the real victim. Like it or not.
 
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Yes, and the person responsible was jailed.
What about those responsible for victimising Amanda? (whether or not it's in the same ballpark). The people responsible have not only put Amanda and Raffaelle and their families through hell but also the Kerchers. Completely unnecessarily. If they hadn't pursued these baseless prosecutions, the Kerchers would have had closure years ago.

I agree there is a huge disparity between the horrors and indignities suffered by Meredith and Amanda.
But Amanda will have to live her whole life knowing (some) people see her as a monster, as 'dirty' on the inside, as having gotten away with murder. She has been violated (and again not in the same way or the extent to which Meredith was violated) over and over again.

If I was given the choice of of being murdered or spending twenty years in jail for a crime that I did not commit with the subsequent destruction of my family financially and every other way I am not so sure which option is worse
 
Yes, Amanda has suffered, rightly or not, and will suffer in future, and if people left it at that I have no argument. But you responding to a comment that Meredith was the true victim, thereby comparing the two, whether you like it or not.

Some people on this thread have actually "argued" that Amanda is a bigger victim. I will take issue with comments like this.


By saying Meredith was the true victim it is implied that Amanda isn't a real and undeserved victim.

If two women are raped and one of them gets murdered whilst the other survives, no person is going to remind people that the murdered woman is the real victim when people articulate their compassion with the surviving woman.

Talking about "who is the real vicitm" implies that one is not really a victim.

In this case that is a complete prejudgment; Amanda is still considered innocent according to Italian law. Barbie simply decides that Amanda is guilty and therefore not a real victim.
 
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If I was given the choice of of being murdered or spending twenty years in jail for a crime that I did not commit with the subsequent destruction of my family financially and every other way I am not so sure which option is worse

Amazing, but perhaps not surprising.
 
Come off it. There are multiple victims in many tragedies. Some are more "real", in an obviously colloquial sense, than others. I surely don't need to give examples.

I have no hesitation in declaring Meredith the real victim. Like it or not.

The point is, it's just stupid of Barbie to bring it up. She might as well say the children starving in Africa are the real victims.
 
My problem was with Barbie saying that Meredith's victimhood was 'real' in order to imply that Amanda's is fake. My point was that Amanda is also a victim, and the fact that Meredith suffered much worse does not negate the reality of Amanda's victimisation.

I suppose I have another problem, as well, Lionking. And that is that this comparison is made at all.
When person A is responsible for person B's suffering, then any complaint person A makes about his or her suffering as a result of the actions which caused person B's suffering, then we can connect the two and say to person A, your suffering is nothing compared to person B's, so shut up.
However, when person A is not responsible for person B's suffering, and person A's suffering is a result of the actions of a third party (c), then any response given to person A's complaints about their suffering at the hands of C in terms of the suffering of person B is irrelevant at best, and disingenuous.
 
Come off it. There are multiple victims in many tragedies. Some are more "real", in an obviously colloquial sense, than others. I surely don't need to give examples.

I have no hesitation in declaring Meredith the real victim. Like it or not.


And I have no hesitation in criticising those who try to deflect sympathy and even justice for Amanda and Raffaele by continually harping on about how Meredith was brutally murdered.

Meredith was brutally murdered. We know that. It was horrible, appalling, sickening, and all the rest. And none of that makes it one iota more justifiable to accuse Amanda and Raffaele falsely, or to denigrate the attempts of any of those trying to rectify the injustice.

Rolfe.
 
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