Merged Smoking should be banned universally

[dafydd]

Though, from what I've read with a search, they've been struggling a bit with deaths due to drunk driving.

All I am saying is that if there was a law that made drinking a little more difficult and saved 500 lives per year in Belgium from drunk driving, it would seem like a good idea to me. Efficacy is important here, of course, a law that produced no significant effect wouldn't be worth it.

Deaths seem like a bigger issue than some drunken disorderliness.

And the liver problems that those yahoos will have later in life? Should we just ban everything and stay indoors and live on bread and water?

 

[dafydd]

I would believe it, Dafydd. I used to holiday in Belgium and the Netherlands quite a bit with my ex-husband. He was a bit of a beer aficionado so we'd go over to learn about beer and drink it too. Not once did I see anyone acting roudy on the streets of either country, despite the fact the locals were drinking the strongest beer this side of Alpha Centauri. Being obviously drunk in public is just not socially acceptable, and people don't do it.

I love Belgium.

I like living here too. If you are ever in Antwerp,drop in. A note to other readers. Don't believe all the boring Belgium jokes and snide comments made on certain BBC TV shows.

 

[Explorer]

Round and round we go. What is going on here? If we take the arguments as presented, then we must also ban the internal combustion engine...but we won't. That's 'necessary', apparantly, 'economically' (although we managed just fine with tobacco and without the ICE).

What business is it of yours how I die?

None at all! I just don't want to breathe in your fug as a bystander and possibly die myself from passive smoking. If you want to kill yourself that way, be my guest

 

[23_Tauri]

None at all! I just don't want to breathe in your fug as a bystander and possibly die myself from passive smoking. If you want to kill yourself that way, be my guest

Thank you. Just give us our requested private smoking clubs and rooms for smokers in pubs and we'll get right off the pavement and out of your face. We don't like having to stand on the pavement just as much as you don't like having to walk round us.

 

[Explorer]

And the mere fact that private smoking clubs are not allowed demonstrates that smoking bans aren't about public health, they're the outcome of a long-standing, politically powerful, moralistic, prohibitionist movement with its roots in 19th century Puritanism.

Pardon the pun, but the passive smoking debacle is a smokescreen.

Absolute Tosh! Passive smoking has been proven conclusively to be harmful. Check out your own CO2 levels in your blood in a smoky atmosphere. Your heart has to work much harder to get the requisite amount of oxygen to the essential organs. Not good!

 

[23_Tauri]

I like living here too. If you are ever in Antwerp,drop in. A note to other readers. Don't believe all the boring Belgium jokes and snide comments made on certain BBC TV shows.

Thank you, Dafydd, what a very kind offer. I haven't been for years. Many great things about Belgium. Not only the world famous brewing tradition, but top class cyclists, gorgeous countryside and they put mayonaise on chips! Nyom nyom!

 

[23_Tauri]

Absolute Tosh! Passive smoking has been proven conclusively to be harmful. Check out your own CO2 levels in your blood in a smoky atmosphere. Your heart has to work much harder to get the requisite amount of oxygen to the essential organs. Not good!

You're leaping to conclusions, as many of the prohibtionists do. Just because CO2 concentration in the blood of non-smokers increases in a smoky room (and can we have citations please) you can't jump to conclude that this results in a risk to long term health or increase in the risk of disease/death in the non-smoker. You can speculate that it might, but that's different.

How much exposure and over what time scale equates to an increased risk? And risk of what? This is what the 'passive smoking is harmful' proponents have never successfully argued in support of their case.

An assumption is made that because smoking is bad for the smoker then it must be bad for those around him/her, mmm 'kay? But, it has not been demonstrated that anyone has died of exposure to SHS. Ever.

(I predict the appearance of Linda on this thread in 5, 4, 3, ..... )

 

[Explorer]

Alcohol does more physical and social damage. Should that be banned too?

Let me qualify that by stating that EXCESS alcohol can cause more physical and social damage.

Alcohol is qualitively different from nictoine in as much that moderate amounts of certain types of drink, like red wine, can be beneficial to health. It also differs in as much that a drinking person next to you, does not recycle the waste elements of his/her actions through your body. He goes to the rest room to safely get rid of that. Smokers pollute the air that non-smokers breathe, and passively and involuntarily, raise their CO2 levels in their blood.

Excessive alcohol drinking has to be tackled in a different way. One measure could be, at least in the UK, where we have the phenomenon of binge drinking, cases of drunkeness ending up in casualty, should be invoiced for their treatment, and not get it free at the point of delivery. A breathaliser test exceeding an minimum specified amount of alcohol, will generate the invoice.

Pricing is another method, but this is socially divisive, and has the capacity to motivate determined poorer drinkers to divert funds from family essentials to buy the more expensive alcohol. Prohibition does not work, so publicity regarding the dangers of excessive alcohol is required plus new and real research to determine the actual number of units consumed to cause damage. The current unit maximums were based on nothing but guesswork.

 

[dafydd]

None at all! I just don't want to breathe in your fug as a bystander and possibly die myself from passive smoking. If you want to kill yourself that way, be my guest

I'm a social smoker. I don't smoke at lot in the house. I respect non-smokers wishes. Even before the smoking ban I would separate myself to go and smoke a cigarette. I never annoy other people with my exhaust gases. I never smoke a cigarette if children are around.

 

[dafydd]

Thank you, Dafydd, what a very kind offer. I haven't been for years. Many great things about Belgium. Not only the world famous brewing tradition, but top class cyclists, gorgeous countryside and they put mayonaise on chips! Nyom nyom!

But not Dutch mayonnaise. Yuch! And let us not forget that Westvleteren has been repeatedly hailed as the best beer in the world.

http://www.westvleteren12.com/

 

[jiggeryqua]

Maximizing happiness and minimizing suffering in the short and long run.

And to achieve maximum happiness in the short and long term, you propose to make enjoyable things annoying?

 

[dafydd]

Absolute Tosh! Passive smoking has been proven conclusively to be harmful. Check out your own CO2 levels in your blood in a smoky atmosphere. Your heart has to work much harder to get the requisite amount of oxygen to the essential organs. Not good!

Walking along a city street breathing in the fumes of slow moving traffic is not good for you either. I don't own a car and puffing away at the odd cigarette now and again does less damage to others health than zooming around in a vehicle. Being alive is not very good for you. I get the impression that the rabid anti-smokers believe that they are going to live forever. Their death certificate should make interesting reading. 'This person died of nothing'.

 

[dafydd]

Let me qualify that by stating that EXCESS alcohol can cause more physical and social damage.

Alcohol is qualitively different from nictoine in as much that moderate amounts of certain types of drink, like red wine, can be beneficial to health. It also differs in as much that a drinking person next to you, does not recycle the waste elements of his/her actions through your body. He goes to the rest room to safely get rid of that. Smokers pollute the air that non-smokers breathe, and passively and involuntarily, raise their CO2 levels in their blood.

Excessive alcohol drinking has to be tackled in a different way. One measure could be, at least in the UK, where we have the phenomenon of binge drinking, cases of drunkeness ending up in casualty, should be invoiced for their treatment, and not get it free at the point of delivery. A breathaliser test exceeding an minimum specified amount of alcohol, will generate the invoice.

Pricing is another method, but this is socially divisive, and has the capacity to motivate determined poorer drinkers to divert funds from family essentials to buy the more expensive alcohol. Prohibition does not work, so publicity regarding the dangers of excessive alcohol is required plus new and real research to determine the actual number of units consumed to cause damage. The current unit maximums were based on nothing but guesswork.

Eat,drink and be merry for tomorrow we snuff it.

 

[23_Tauri]

In the UK, the social and economic costs of the ban on smoking in public places (July 2007 onwards) far exceed any perceived benefits. For that reason alone it needs amending. And fast.

 

[Explorer]

Walking along a city street breathing in the fumes of slow moving traffic is not good for you either. I don't own a car and puffing away at the odd cigarette now and again does less damage to others health than zooming around in a vehicle. Being alive is not very good for you. I get the impression that the rabid anti-smokers believe that they are going to live forever. Their death certificate should make interesting reading. 'This person died of nothing'.

Another strawman. Street fumes are diluted with fresh air, it is not the same as breathing nicotine smoke in a confined space. New regulations for emissions is helping to reduce any health hazards. In the UK in the 1950s, we used to burn coal in just about every home and factory in Greater London, leading to "pea souper" smogs. Thousands of sick and elderly people used to die of it every winter. What happened to cure the problem? Legislation! It banned the burning of fuels that caused sulphur dioxide emissions into the atmosphere, and the health of London improved dramatically with Clean Air Act of 1956.

If every government took your attitude, its people would be in a very poor state of health, and would be costing the taxpayer billions.

.. and a final point. Longevity isn't the be all and end all, I agree, but a shorter and healthy life is got to be better than a shorter unhealthy life.

You know it makes sense. Give up the coffin nails!!!!!

 

[Explorer]

Eat,drink and be merry for tomorrow we snuff it.

No, snuff went out of fashion in the early twentieth century!

 

[Explorer]

In the UK, the social and economic costs of the ban on smoking in public places (July 2007 onwards) far exceed any perceived benefits. For that reason alone it needs amending. And fast.

That which can be stated without proof, can be dismissed without proof!

....and one more point, the benefits are not perceived, you can check out the actual proven benefits published by the NHS in the UK, published in the last year.

....and a final point. My local is much more social and enjoyable now the fug has gone. A very tangible benefit, in my book!

 

[dafydd]

Another strawman. Street fumes are diluted with fresh air, it is not the same as breathing nicotine smoke in a confined space. New regulations for emissions is helping to reduce any health hazards. In the UK in the 1950s, we used to burn coal in just about every home and factory in Greater London, leading to "pea souper" smogs. Thousands of sick and elderly people used to die of it every winter. What happened to cure the problem? Legislation! It banned the burning of fuels that caused sulphur dioxide emissions into the atmosphere, and the health of London improved dramatically with Clean Air Act of 1956.

If every government took your attitude, its people would be in a very poor state of health, and would be costing the taxpayer billions.

.. and a final point. Longevity isn't the be all and end all, I agree, but a shorter and healthy life is got to be better than a shorter unhealthy life.

You know it makes sense. Give up the coffin nails!!!!!

Look up the meaning of strawman. All the bars in Belgium are required by law to have an extremely effective extractor fan, a large black box on the ceiling. I would rather spend an evening in a Belgian bruin cafe than an afternoon in the middle of Mexico City.

 

[23_Tauri]

That which can be stated without proof, can be dismissed without proof!

Just waiting for someone to ask...

Start here:
Economic impact of public smoking ban

Pub Closures

For social consequences, I can only give anecdotal evidence. But as pubs close, particularly wet pubs in poorer communities, social isolation ensues as people whose only social contact used to be the trip to the pub now stay at home.

And there are social consequences for publicans and their families as their businesses go under also.

ETA: live music. Pubs that were venues for live music by up and coming (and more established) local bands are closing due to poor sales. Fewer music venues impacts on our cultural heritage in the long term.

....and one more point, the benefits are not perceived, you can check out the actual proven benefits published by the NHS in the UK, published in the last year.

Can I have a citation for smoking rates in the UK pre and post ban please?

And the old boy who now doesn't meet up with his friends down the pub because he can't smoke his pipe; do you think he really cares about the health impacts of smoking when he faces loneliness and depression in his final years?

....and a final point. My local is much more social and enjoyable now the fug has gone. A very tangible benefit, in my book!

For you, maybe, but a larger proportion of pub goers are smokers compared to the general population. They've all been penalised by an uncompromising ban. Politicians won't even contemplate an amendment to the smoking ban which would allow pubs to have well-ventilated, indoor smoking rooms for their clientele. Where's the fairness in that?

And the reality is in the figures. The smoking ban has added to publicans' woes and hastened the closure of many pubs that were vital parts of our communities. Urban gastro-pubs and Wetherspoons might survive but to be honest I hardly consider them to be pubs anyway.

 

[23_Tauri]

You know it makes sense. Give up the coffin nails!!!!!

Give up the sanctimonious attitude!!!!

Who are you to lecture dafydd and I on our lifestyle choices? Perhaps we don't want to give up. I like the Lady Nicotine on the occasions I choose to commune with her.