Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Grinder said:
Curatolo was also on the police payroll, either directly or through allowing his drug dealing.
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Lumumba's getting his paycheck now. How else does he get beaten, go out of business and still channel his hatred towards Knox.
 
lionking said:
Where have I ever said that conspiracies haven't occurred. I simply have seen no evidence of one here. No whistleblower? After all this time? In such a high profile case?

Now, can I ask you, do you believe that AK and RS were fitted up by the police?
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Hi LionKing,
Thank for the response, :)
I did not bring this up to argue whether conspiracies do or do not occur, we both know, that rare, they do occur...

IIRC correctly, you had mentioned that it would take a huge conspiracy to have happened in this particular case we discuss. And so when I read of the story that Mr. Sfarzo wrote of, cops planting evidence, and producing false statements, well that struck a cord, so to say.

I do not know how the case that Mr. Ffarzo mentioned came to light. Was there a whistleblower? I don't know and don't really have the time to go dig for the details of what happened in that particular case. But I will be curious to read a bit about irt sometime...

About the Meredith Kercher murder case:
This has turned into a very high profile case, as you mentioned.
There appears to be a closing of the ranks, as what happened in the Genoa G8 affair. Without audio or video recordings of what happened in the interrogation room that night of Nov. 5/6, there is, I believe, reason to believe the police might have made false statements, as what happened in the Genoa G8 affair.

In the Meredith Kercher case, at least 1 police officer apparently lied twice.

Was there planting of evidence like in the Genoa G8 affair?
I now think so. I think that the bra clasp was deliberately tampered with, bogus evidence planted...

Remember that almost Hollywood like video production of the collection of the bra clasp?

It was done right after Raffaele Sollecito's family had correctly pointed out the # of rings, 11, that were found on the shoe print from Meredith's bloody bedroom did not match the correct # of rings, 7, that were on the bottom of Raff's Nike Airforce 1 sneakers. Fancy that...

And after finding an empty shoe box in Rudy's old apartment that once contained Nike Outbreak 2's, the same mode of sneaker which Rudy said that he did own, but had discarded in Germany while on the run, the cops had no evidence of Raffaele inside Meredith's bedroom. And they were made to look like fools who could not even count correctly, in my opinion.

This leads me to believe that something fishy went down with that bra clasp.
And that bra clasp collection video says it all, IMHO.

Evidence planting, false statements, a lying police officer, it seems to be staring me right in the face. If Amanda and Raffaele are acquited, it will be interesting to see if any serious investigation into police misconduct occurs in this case we discuss...

I'd like to write more, but I've gotta run.
Peace,
RW
 
lionking said:
Where have I ever said that conspiracies haven't occurred. I simply have seen no evidence of one here. No whistleblower? After all this time? In such a high profile case?
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Who do you think they could blow the whistle to? Do you think Italy has some kind of police oversight body or something?
 
lionking said:
gee, it couldn't have anything to do with her blaming him for the murder could it?
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Blame Mignini for that one ! It was exactly what he asked of her. Then like some sort of child molester, after he gets what he wants from her, he threatens consequences if she tell's.

Don't blame the victim pal !!! Ask yourself why he did this? Why?

Is it because without it he has a body but no suspects ! Oh, I think so ! But don't think for one minute the people in this room dont see Uncle Chester for who he really is !!!
 
From what I have seen so far in the news my feeling is that Hellmann intends to acquit them for lack of proof beyond reasonable doubt.
I know it is risky to conclude things like this from a few comments and acts of the judge, but I think Comodi also had that feeling when she weakly projected acquittal.

And Hellmann's opinion will decide the matter, regardless of the other judges in the jury, as I don't think he would write a Motivation Report to which he is opposed.

While they are guilty, of course.
 
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bolint said:
From what I have seen so far in the news my feeling is that Hellmann intends to acquit them for lack of proof beyond reasonable doubt.
I know it is risky to conclude things like this from a few comments and acts of the judge, but I think Comodi also had that feeling when she weakly projected acquittal.

And Hellmann's opinion will decide the matter, regardless of the other judges in the jury, as I don't think he would write a Motivation Report to which he is opposed.

While they are guilty, of course.
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You don't think it will be unanimous?
 
HumanityBlues said:
You don't think it will be unanimous?
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I don't know the dynamics of that group. I know nothing of their beliefs of the case.
Only Hellmann is visible and in a much lesser degre Zanetti.

But unanimity is not required, simple majority decides.
And if the two professional judges agree there is no way that in this case the popular judges would overrule them.
 
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Kevin_Lowe said:
Who do you think they could blow the whistle to? Do you think Italy has some kind of police oversight body or something?
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And then get slapped with Slander and take a chance at spending up to twelve years in jail.

It's the kind of situation that breeds peer pressure and a culture of going along to get along or go to jail.

In Lion King's defense, it's obvious (s)he was an honest cop. You got to at least admire her/ him for that. It's also why it is hard for her/ him to imagine a possible conspiracy here even if (s)he is aware they do occur. It's also why (s)he probably believes the ILE over Amanda, because in order for her/ him to believe this, (s)he has to be willing to believe what they did to Amanda is possible and (s)he's not willing to believe this w/o evidence.

Instead of being mad at LK for his beliefs, we should really be applauding her/ his honest belief that cops are generally good people (especially when there's no evidence to the contrary).

Which is ironic in a way, because this is where LK and Amanda have common ground, because there is evidence that (if you put aside all biases and look at things critically) she was naive enough to believe all cops were like LK.

That they were honest and there to protect ordinary people like her and her whole life was nothing but a case history supporting this. Other than marijuana and the noise ticket, she was a law-abiding citizen and an honor student. Hence her statement in court (paraphrasing) that she didn't really blame Mignini. He was just doing his job.

But regardless, her faith in people was shattered by what happened resulting in her law-abiding world and beliefs literally crumbling down around her. Just like LK's would if he ever found out that LE conspiracies like (s)he thinks isn't possible here, actually did happen here.

In conclusion, Lion King is an honest and decent woman/ man and should be respected for this. I know I do. Thank you for spending time here LK and especially for sharing part of who you are with us,

Dave
 
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lionking said:
gee, it couldn't have anything to do with her blaming him for the murder could it?
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That's the thing, Lionking. She didn't--they did. As vague and confused as those statements are, the killer clue is 'I don't think I can be used as testimone' from the note. She's not sure of anything that's for sure, but one thing she's especially not sure of is that she was at the cottage that night. However the police took this as an absolute 'confession' or 'accusation' and then arrested him for the murder and held him for two weeks after, despite people coming forward to proffer an alibi. They're the ones who decided his bar was a 'crime scene' and closed it down. Then they blamed her absolutely for the whole debacle--shameless.
 
AmyStrange said:
Instead of being mad at LK for his beliefs, we should really be applauding her/ his honest belief that cops have to be good, because if they aren't her/ his world just makes that much less sense.
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I have no idea where you got this from.

I have seen police corruption and conspiracies. There has been clear evidence, and yes whistleblowers often provide it. Where's the evidence in this case?
 
lionking said:
Where have I ever said that conspiracies haven't occurred. I simply have seen no evidence of one here. No whistleblower? After all this time? In such a high profile case?
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Actually, a whistleblower did write a letter exposing the poor standards of Perugia Forensics.

http://i.imgur.com/WkouP.png
http://i.imgur.com/PBhlZ.png


The Perugian Crime: Full of Poison for the Police
Still news at the resumption of the final hearing session.


Anonymous letter sent to the court, to the experts, and to our newspaper.


PERUGIA September 22, 2011

The prosecution turns to the police in the Meredith case

The writing contains, in substance, a polemical and acidic reply to the arguments of the letter that the director of police, Director Piero Angeloni, sent to the president of the Appeal Court of Assizes, Claudio Pratillo Hellmann, in order to defend the good name and the professional status of the Italian forensic police. The aspects that concern the trial more than a little are those in which the anonymous person maintains that the suburban forensic police “are not supplied with equipment that is the norm” and that the refrigerator containers in use “are those for food.”

“Security and protection devices are not acquired for lack of funds. The coverall? It is used only when there is the video camera. Masks and head covers? They are worn only in the presence of experts and lawyers. The gloves? There is no need to waster them and the recommendations are to use them to the end and to not break them.”

Among the 17 points made there are those in which it is affirmed “that the refrigeration of samples is not assured, nor tracked,” that the “cleaning of instruments is superficial; for the DNA the norm is to perform it with alcohol and never to verify with control blanks”; that “when the biological result is not that hoped for, the amplification of the trace is forced for each despite rational scientific indications and one proceeds even when something is not found.

It will be that the result for this as well is always the presence of mixed unknowns?”, the public prosecutors’ consultant showed that during the testing operations, noted that the DNA amplifier was not placed under the fume hood contrary to what is done in the police laboratory. This is not the right place because the possibility is the highest that it can be contaminated if it is put under any fume hood”; that the “forensic police are not supplied with an adequate library and they are not furnished what needed to operate in the various sectors with the possibility to make inquiries on the international guidelines”; that biologic evidence samples are always completely destroyed, without guarantee of the repeatability of the test, the most times possible, as happens in all of the civilized countries in the world”.

A total “I accuse” – many points brought out and compared by the prosecutors- who, however, was entered as pure curiosity really because anonymous. Therefore not reliable, not serious, not scientific.
 
lionking said:
The press. Don't tell me they wouldn't have paid big for an inside source.
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Then the police call him a liar, charge them both with calunnia and put them away for six years, like they want to do Amanda even if acquitted of murder.

Don't you see how this equation works? How the lack of press freedoms and the existence of the calunnia mechanism serve to stifle criticism of the police in the press? You expect someone to step forward and accuse his buddies in a culture where many believe 'there's nothing lower than a rat?'

The evidence is there of police corruption, Lionking, hard evidence. It's been detailed many times in this thread. You're just looking for a confession, and you're not going to get one. They know better than that--they extract confessions and know their value in court. Why would they confess when it looks like they might be able to get away with it anyway, and even if not it would just make them easier to prosecute?
 
Kaosium said:
Then the police call him a liar, charge them both with calunnia and put them away for six years, like they want to do Amanda even if acquitted of murder.
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Oh I see. The press would have divulged the identity of the whistleblower then. :rolleyes:
 
bolint said:
From what I have seen so far in the news my feeling is that Hellmann intends to acquit them for lack of proof beyond reasonable doubt
.
I know it is risky to conclude things like this from a few comments and acts of the judge, but I think Comodi also had that feeling when she weakly projected acquittal.

And Hellmann's opinion will decide the matter, regardless of the other judges in the jury, as I don't think he would write a Motivation Report to which he is opposed.

While they are guilty, of course.
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I agree. Lack of proof beyond reasonable doubt also means they are considered innocent.

Yep, Hellmann will lead the way to an innocent verdict.

While they are innocent, of course. :)
 
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Kaosium said:
As vague and confused as those statements are, the killer clue is 'I don't think I can be used as testimone' from the note. She's not sure of anything that's for sure, but one thing she's especially not sure of is that she was at the cottage that night. However the police took this as an absolute 'confession' or 'accusation' and then arrested him for the murder and held him for two weeks after, despite people coming forward to proffer an alibi. They're the ones who decided his bar was a 'crime scene' and closed it down. Then they blamed her absolutely for the whole debacle--shameless.
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It was not that vague.
Amanda sat through the hearing before Matteini and she availed herself of the option of not responding while Lumuba was desperately defending himself in vain for more than two hours right before the eyes of Amanda (and Raffaele, of course).

All because she had been coerced. :D
Give me a break.
 
lionking said:
I have no idea where you got this from.

I have seen police corruption and conspiracies. There has been clear evidence, and yes whistleblowers often provide it. Where's the evidence in this case?
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Lion King,

I read your post more closely and rewrote that part. I was wrong in jumping the gun here.

If you start with the belief that she is guilty, than it's hard to change your mind about the interrogation and how she was really a suspect (and not a witness) and they should have taped it.

No one has come forward and told what went on that night in any kind of detail. Why hasn't anyone come forward (in almost four years) and leaked information about this. To me this makes me suspicious. Maybe not to you, but that doesn't make it any less suspicious to me.

How many cops were there all total getting her "witness" statement the night of November 5th? If you believe there was maybe (at most) one or two and not at least eight (the number of cops at least who signed her statement), then it will be close to impossible to prove to you something very underhanded was going on (why do you need eight cops to take a witness statement), and thus we will just have to agree to disagree.

Anyway, thank you for sharing,

Dave
 
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