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unifying gravity and electromagnetism

Edited by jhunter1163: 
Moderated content removed.

When the woos fail,they turn to insults and calumny. You are not the first delusionaut here who has done this. You lose. I hope you learn something someday.
 
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When the woos fail,they turn to insults and calumny. You are not the first delusionaut here who has done this. You lose. I hope you learn something someday.

Yeah, but you guys suck!

You should have just hailed him as the next Einstein, and all this would have ended perfectly.
 
Like many here, you are blessed with ignorance and I don’t think I can drive that of you but I will try.

I suggest you drop your condescending attitude, because you are obviously ignorant about many things yourself, as you amply demonstrate, below.

If some mass weighs 6kg on earth and only 1kg on moon, we wouldn’t say that the mass is ‘shrunken’ and hence mass is a relative thing.

No. Weight is a relative thing, not mass. The object would have exactly the same mass on Earth and on the moon. Only the weight, which a measure of the mass attraction would be different.

We know that weighing machines get affected by gravity. It is nothing to do with accuracy of the machine.

That depends on the type of weighing machine. On an old-fashioned balance, you would find that it takes a 6kg weight to balance your 6kg object on the moon as well.

Likewise, if a clock measures 60 seconds on earth, it may measure more seconds on moon for the same duration. It doesn’t mean that the time has actually dilated but it is due the fact the clock gets affected by gravity.

No. Most modern clocks are not affected by gravity. However, time dilation does exist, and if you measure time precisely enough, you will find that it is not exactly the same on the moon as on Earth.

One may introduce something like ‘timeness’ (analogous to ‘weight’) to account for the measured difference in time (analogous to mass).

No, that would not make sense.

When electromagnetic radiation can get affected by gravity, why not the atomic clocks?

They are. That is called gravitational time dilation.

Of course, it is not easy to convince people to get rid of the ‘deep rooted’ scientific beliefs (like the case with religious beliefs!)

Right. We are some people who tend to rely quite much on observational evidence. Sorry about that....

To quote again Stephen Hawking, whom I consider as my virtual teacher in cosmology,
“Any physical theory is provisional, in the sense that it is only a hypothesis: you can never prove it. No matter how many times the results of experiments agree with some theory, you can never be sure that the next time the result will not contradict the theory. On the other hand, you can disprove a theory by finding even a single observation that disagrees with the predictions of the theory.” (A Brief History of Time)

That is, in principle, correct. However, some theories are so well founded, that a single contrary observation is more likely to be proof of the falseness of that observation, than of the falseness of the theory.

My thought experiment, whose predictions go against the notion of constant speed of light, is open to interpretation by anybody and needs only minimum sense of logic.

Your thought experiment is contradicted by observation.

Though Einstein’s theory of general relativity proved Newton wrong, Newton’s theory still holds true in the vast majority of situations. Einstein’s theory helped us understand the universe better and helped us move forward in Science. But this wouldn’t have been possible without the Newton’s theory.

Obviously.

If we insist that Einstein’s theory is the ultimate and nothing beyond to think, out of our love and attachment to this great personality, then science becomes a religion.

Obviously.

However, it takes more than a thought experiment to invalidate it.

Hans
 
I hope now you realise that the 'homeopathic knowledge' is very powerful and specific.
He's right. The more dilute the knowledge, the more power it has in producing ideas of such intellectual momentum that no contrary stimuli will even slow them down. Homeopathic knowledge absolutely works.
 
I hope now you realise that the 'homeopathic knowledge' is very powerful and specific.

We are quite a few looking forward to test your strength on homoeopathic knowledge, in an other thread, any time you feel up to it. :D

Hans
 
www.homeoscience.com

No. Weight is a relative thing, not mass. The object would have exactly the same mass on Earth and on the moon. Only the weight, which a measure of the mass attraction would be different.

When Time measures differently on Earth and Moon, you are putting this down to time dilation/contraction and so proposing that Time is relative. (and refuting the absolute Time).

When Mass weighs differently in the same scenarios, you are arguing that it is due the weight that is affected by gravity and stubborn with the idea that Mass is constant and absolute. How weird?

No. Most modern clocks are not affected by gravity. However, time dilation does exist, and if you measure time precisely enough, you will find that it is not exactly the same on the moon as on Earth.

They are. That is called gravitational time dilation.

Well, you are actually arguing for me and contradicting your own previous statement. I am sure you didn’t mean that, so let me correct you.
As per GR, gravitational time dilation occurs not because clocks get affected by gravity (unlike the weighing machines) but because Time itself dilates in heavy gravitational fields. So please do some more home work and support your argument.

However, some theories are so well founded, that a single contrary observation is more likely to be proof of the falseness of that observation, than of the falseness of the theory.

That would definitely be the case if the experiment is carried out and interpreted in one’s bed room. My thought experiment is open to everybody who can use their reasoning skill.


Your thought experiment is contradicted by observation.

Here, you are joining the rest of the crowd – My thought experiment is actually supported by the observations of the historical twin flight experiment

I am pasting it here for your convenience.

Real twin flight experiment
Time dilation has apparently been ‘proved’ experimentally by running two flights with equal velocity in the opposite directions, one east wards and another west wards. It was noted that the clock in the east bound flight recorded less time than that in the west bound flight ‘indicating’ time dilation. This is because, earth’s rotational velocity (as it spins towards east) gets added to the east bound flight making its relative velocity more than the west bound flight which runs opposite to the direction of the earth’s spin.

My Thought experiment
Imagine that a beam of light with velocity ‘C’ is shone towards the west. A west bound flight with a velocity ‘0.2C’ will measure the velocity of light as only ‘0.8C’ unless its time gets dilated (runs slower). Similarly the east bound flight with a velocity ‘0.2C’ will measure the speed of light as ‘1.2C’ unless its time runs faster. But we know that this was not the case from the real experiment.
 
When Time measures differently on Earth and Moon, you are putting this down to time dilation/contraction and so proposing that Time is relative. (and refuting the absolute Time).

Well, I didn't really propose that. It was a guy named Einstein.

When Mass weighs differently in the same scenarios, you are arguing that it is due the weight that is affected by gravity and stubborn with the idea that Mass is constant and absolute. How weird?

I think it is weird that you are not aware of the difference between mass and weight. It may not actually be primary school curriculum in your part of the world, but since you profess to be of some learning, this should be obvious to you.

However, let me educate you, then:

Mass is measured in pond (p). Weight is measured in gram (g).
On the surface of Earth, for most practical purposes, 1p = 1g.

However, weight is defined as the force that gravity exerts on an object. Thus the object that weighs 1kg in Earth weighs only about 0.167 kg on the Moon.

Mass is defined as the inertia of an object, and an object with a mass of 1kp (kilopond) will have that mass anywhere in the universe, unless accelerated to high speed. This means that a mass of 1kp moving at, say, 10m/s will hit you equally hard on Earth and on the Moon.

For reference: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/mass.html

Well, you are actually arguing for me and contradicting your own previous statement. I am sure you didn’t mean that, so let me correct you.
As per GR, gravitational time dilation occurs not because clocks get affected by gravity (unlike the weighing machines) but because Time itself dilates in heavy gravitational fields. So please do some more home work and support your argument.

It is not my fault that you don't read my post. I said:

Hans said:
No. Most modern clocks are not affected by gravity. However, time dilation does exist, and if you measure time precisely enough, you will find that it is not exactly the same on the moon as on Earth.

- Which is essentially the same as you said above. I have met another fellow who made a habit of saying that people were wrong, and then repeated their words, as correction. Interestingly, he was a homoeopath, too.

I mention modern clocks, because some old clocks (e.g. pendulum clocks) are in fact influenced by gravity.


That would definitely be the case if the experiment is carried out and interpreted in one’s bed room. My thought experiment is open to everybody who can use their reasoning skill.

It is not only open as a though experiment, it has been done in practice, and the result is different from your prediction.

Here, you are joining the rest of the crowd – My thought experiment is actually supported by the observations of the historical twin flight experiment

No, it is not.

Real twin flight experiment
Time dilation has apparently been ‘proved’ experimentally by running two flights with equal velocity in the opposite directions, one east wards and another west wards. It was noted that the clock in the east bound flight recorded less time than that in the west bound flight ‘indicating’ time dilation. This is because, earth’s rotational velocity (as it spins towards east) gets added to the east bound flight making its relative velocity more than the west bound flight which runs opposite to the direction of the earth’s spin.

For the third time: Yes. We all know this.


My Thought experiment

Imagine that a beam of light with velocity ‘C’ is shone towards the west. A west bound flight with a velocity ‘0.2C’ will measure the velocity of light as only ‘0.8C’ unless its time gets dilated (runs slower). Similarly the east bound flight with a velocity ‘0.2C’ will measure the speed of light as ‘1.2C’ unless its time runs faster. But we know that this was not the case from the real experiment.

What do you mean by the last sentence? That the experiment showed your thought experiment to be wrong? The you are correct. Although the clock experiment did not include measuring the speed of light. This has been done later, however, because all you need is shoot light beams in different directions, with Earth's rotation and against it. For good measure, such experiments are timed to add up not only Earth's rotation but also it's orbital speed, PLUS the Sun's orbital speed around the galaxy.

All in all, we can have a speed of appr. 300,000m/s, no less than 10% of the speed of light. So we shoot a light beam against that speed and with it, and measure the propagation speeds of those light-beams. Guess what we find:

They both move at the speed of light (c).

Also, we measure the speed of light reaching us from stars with various speeds relative to us, and we find that it always has the speed of c.

So we can conclude that the speed of light is constant, regardless of your reference frame.

Hans
 
Mass is measured in pond (p). Weight is measured in gram (g).
On the surface of Earth, for most practical purposes, 1p = 1g.

Given that we're dealing with someone who apparently doesn't understand the difference between mass and weight at all, I'm not sure it's helpful to try to explain using a mix of obsolete units and flat out inaccuracies.

Mass is measured in kilograms (kg). Weight is measured in Newtons (N). (I'm ignoring Imperial units since they date from before the difference between mass and force was understood and just serve to confuse the matter.)

Mass has never been measured in pond, that is a unit of force (1 kp = 9.80665 N). Weight has never been measured in grams, that is a unit of mass.

Thus the object that weighs 1kg in Earth weighs only about 0.167 kg on the Moon.

No, and object that weighs 9.8N on Earth weighs 1.637N on the Moon. It has a mass of 1kg.
 
Given that we're dealing with someone who apparently doesn't understand the difference between mass and weight at all, I'm not sure it's helpful to try to explain using a mix of obsolete units and flat out inaccuracies.

Mass is measured in kilograms (kg). Weight is measured in Newtons (N). (I'm ignoring Imperial units since they date from before the difference between mass and force was understood and just serve to confuse the matter.)

Mass has never been measured in pond, that is a unit of force (1 kp = 9.80665 N). Weight has never been measured in grams, that is a unit of mass.



No, and object that weighs 9.8N on Earth weighs 1.637N on the Moon. It has a mass of 1kg.

I've met people who thought that 'weightless' in space meant just that,as if an astronaut could pick up the Space Shuttle and balance it on his finger. drgsrinivas does not quite come in to that category but his misunderstanding of physics is quite spectacular.
 
Given that we're dealing with someone who apparently doesn't understand the difference between mass and weight at all, I'm not sure it's helpful to try to explain using a mix of obsolete units and flat out inaccuracies.

Mass is measured in kilograms (kg). Weight is measured in Newtons (N). (I'm ignoring Imperial units since they date from before the difference between mass and force was understood and just serve to confuse the matter.)

Mass has never been measured in pond, that is a unit of force (1 kp = 9.80665 N). Weight has never been measured in grams, that is a unit of mass.



No, and object that weighs 9.8N on Earth weighs 1.637N on the Moon. It has a mass of 1kg.

I stand corrected, then. :)

ETA: The wonderful thing about this forum is that you can always learn, if you are willing to.

Hans
 
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I've met people who thought that 'weightless' in space meant just that,as if an astronaut could pick up the Space Shuttle and balance it on his finger. drgsrinivas does not quite come in to that category but his misunderstanding of physics is quite spectacular.

Yeah, read a Sci Fi novel once (Probably by Clarke), about moon exploration. These guys were actually climbing mountains there, and it was pointed out that over-confidence in the low gravity could be dangerous: A 1000 foot fall would kill you every bit as much on the moon as on Earth.

(More in fact, as there would be no air resistance :eek: )

Hans
 
When Mass weighs differently in the same scenarios, you are arguing that it is due the weight that is affected by gravity and stubborn with the idea that Mass is constant and absolute. How weird?

Mass is a constant. You need to learn some basic physics. You have a lot of reading to do.
 
No, and object that weighs 9.8N on Earth weighs 1.637N on the Moon. It has a mass of 1kg.

It would have a mass of 1kg on the surface of a neutron star too. Not that it would survive that,but you know what I mean
 
I stand corrected, then. :)

ETA: The wonderful thing about this forum is that you can always learn, if you are willing to.

Hans

It's nice to see people admit a mistake without all the denials, blustering, and hand-waving.

Thank you! :D
 
Altough mass is expressed in kg, we should not forget that this is an inertial figure relative to earth at sea level... In other words, IMO, mass should only be considered as sort of inercial reference.
 

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