Perry lets the terrorists win

[Piggy]

Awww....shucks. Obviously, WHEN ASKED a question about the "theological" someone should avoid answering it...particularly, athiests....

Never even hinted that the question shouldn't have been answered.

Moving right on, no, there's nothing ambiguous on "Both as a Christian and an American..." and that seems to cover the bases OF THE QUESTION quite nicely.

Now, where's that naivete? Please listen to the interview in it's entirety before you respond.

No, wait, don't. No reason to. Your mind is made up. It is all so very, very simple in the world of the ideologue.

"The ideologue"... that's funny.

Anyway, the bit you cite there is a summary of two previous statements he made:

Well, obviously, Israel is our oldest and most stable democratic ally in that region.

I also as a Christian have a clear directive to support Israel.

That second statement, in response to the question "To what extent do you view America's continued protection of Israel as a theological priority?" -- which is a question about the foreign policy and military strategy of the USA -- has serious implications, given the current climate.

It was a tremendously stupid answer.

And if he takes it seriously, it's a tremendously dangerous answer.

 

[Bri]

Basing policy on "directives from God" is not the same as religious dogma influencing policy decisions.

Obama never said that religious dogma influences his policy decisions either. In fact, he didn't even say what that article you cited says that he said.

I looked at the original speech and couldn't find where be said that he "kept the faith" through various acts as president. The only use of the phrase "keep the faith" is right after he defines what he means by "faith" early in the speech:

[Dr. Lowery] was talking about faith, the belief in things not seen, the belief that if you persevere a better day lies ahead. And I suppose the reason I enjoy coming to the CBC -- what this weekend is all about is, you and me, we're all a little bit crazy, but hopefully a good kind of crazy. (Applause.) We’re a good kind of crazy because no matter how hard things get, we keep the faith; we keep fighting; we keep moving forward.​

He doesn't actually mention God other than to describe a sermon at the beginning of the speech and the phrase "God bless you." He never says anything about his own faith in God, much less saying that he would make policy decisions based on a directive from God.

Now does Perry base policy decisions on "directives from God"? We sure as hell haven't seen that in Texas so I need some know it all liberal to clue me in.

I don't know if he has. Do you? He indicated that he would as president, according to the quote you posted. Even if he was lying and saying that only to appeal to his base, he will certainly have to backpedal if he ever makes it to the general election.

-Bri

 

[johnny karate]

Except when we were talking about Perry requesting that others pray for rain in his proclamation.

"We" weren't talking about that. This thread is about Perry and what his stated policy would be regarding Israel. Try to stay focused.

Keeping the faith means explicitly that to keep your Christian faith, you have faith in Obama, and his policies, and you vote for him. "Thru various acts" means that his Christian faith influences and directs his acts.

Yeah, that's just wrong.

"Keep the faith" is an idiom long divorced of its religious connotations, meaning simply to maintain belief in something.

But hey, I wouldn't expect a firm grasp on proper language usage from somehow who peppers his speech with nonsense words like "irregardless":

Irregardless...

Irregardless...

Irregardless...

I actually agree with you that we can interpret this statement different ways. We should interpret it in the way most FAVORABLE TO OBAMA! OF COURSE!!!

Or we can just take it at face value. In no way does Obama say he uses religion to influence his policy decisions.

Now let's take Perry.

Well, obviously, Israel is our oldest and most stable democratic ally in that region. That is what this is about. I also as a Christian have a clear directive to support Israel. So from my perspective, it's pretty easy. Both as an American and as a Christian, I am going to stand with Israel.

Pretty clear cut. Perry says he would use his religion to influence his policy towards Israel.

HEY I GOT AN IDEA!

LET'S JUST GIVE OBAMA A FREE PASS AGAIN!

Or we can just look at what Perry and Obama have each said.

Rick Perry indicated he would allow his religion to influence policy decisions.

Obama has not.

 

[bikerdruid]

That second statement, in response to the question "To what extent do you view America's continued protection of Israel as a theological priority?" -- which is a question about the foreign policy and military strategy of the USA -- has serious implications, given the current climate.

It was a tremendously stupid answer.

And if he takes it seriously, it's a tremendously dangerous answer.

that is very true.
perry reminds me of cliff robertson in the film ' Escape from LA.'.he is a christian zealot who has had himself appointed as president for life,.

 

[mhaze]

Even if Obama was referring to faith in God (which is far from obvious), the statement wouldn't mean that he bases policy decisions on directives from God.

-Bri

You know, I do not interpret "a clear directive as a Christian" to be the same as a "directive from God".

The first, seems to refer to a construct from the perspective of Judeo-Christian ethics and culture, and the second, more like voices in the brain.

It's not "a stretch" to reframe Perry's comment as you've done. It's just a a complete lie.

Again, though I would note that for each and every stretch that you might try to make with Perry, with equal plausibility I can make one similarly with Obama.

 

[mhaze]

....That second statement, in response to the question "To what extent do you view America's continued protection of Israel as a theological priority?" -- which is a question about the foreign policy and military strategy of the USA -- has serious implications, given the current climate.

It was a tremendously stupid answer.

And if he takes it seriously, it's a tremendously dangerous answer.

Although I don't agree with your opinion, at least you've phrased the argument in a non-ridiculous fashion, looking at the practical implications of public comments, and not imputing some sort of weird evil to the human making them.

 

[Bri]

You know, I do not interpret "a clear directive as a Christian" to be the same as a "directive from God".

The first, seems to refer to a construct from the perspective of Judeo-Christian ethics and culture, and the second, more like voices in the brain.

It's not "a stretch" to reframe Perry's comment as you've done. It's just a a complete lie.

You posted the quote. According to you, Perry said "I also as a Christian have a clear directive to support Israel."

So are you actually claiming that he meant that as a Christian he has a clear directive from someone other than God? If so, who?

This is about the fifth or sixth time this has been asked and you have refused to answer. Answer the question.

-Bri

 

[SezMe]

I also as a Christian have a clear directive to support Israel. So from my perspective, it's pretty easy. Both as an American and as a Christian, I am going to stand with Israel.

I'm ok with that response.

This is about the fifth or sixth time this has been asked and you have refused to answer. Answer the question.

All your twaddling about is just your refusal to respond to a direct, unambiguous, non-loaded question. Answer the damn question: who does this directive come from?

Anything else is confirmation that you've painted yourself into a corner but are just too embarrassed to admit it. Or foolish. Or blind. Take your pick.

 

[mhaze]

You posted the quote. According to you, Perry said "I also as a Christian have a clear directive to support Israel."

So are you actually claiming that he meant that as a Christian he has a clear directive from someone other than God? If so, who?

This is about the fifth or sixth time this has been asked and you have refused to answer. Answer the question.

-Bri

From his conscience. That's the way I read it. If you like you can extrapolate from that and INFER that it's a "message from god". But that's your inference, and is not in the words explicitly.

Take the other part of his comment. "As an American, I have a clear directive to support Israel."

Who does that come from? No specific person, just the cultural and historical context.

That should be all you need for an answer.

 

[Robrob]

I also as a Christian have a clear directive to support Israel. So from my perspective, it's pretty easy. Both as an American and as a Christian, I am going to stand with Israel.

And if another candidate (say, Obama) got up there and said, "As a Muslim I am not going to stand with Israel" you'd freak out wouldn't you?

(And no, I don't think Obama is a Muslim)

Basing any foreign policy on your religious belief is anti-American.

I suspect this was more a misstatement by Perry as he attempted to play to his "base." OTOH, he said it, he owns it.

 

[SezMe]

From his conscience.

Thanks for giving a direct answer, mhaze. I think it is an incredible (in the literal sense of the word) response but that is neither here nor there. You get props for replying.

 

[mhaze]

.....Basing any foreign policy on your religious belief is anti-American.

I suspect this was more a misstatement by Perry as he attempted to play to his "base." OTOH, he said it, he owns it.

Let me know when Obama is asked questions bout responsibilitites in a "theological context".

wait...
waiting...
waiting......

 

[Bri]

From his conscience. That's the way I read it. If you like you can extrapolate from that and INFER that it's a "message from god". But that's your inference, and is not in the words explicitly.

Now I see why you didn't answer it the first 5 times the question was asked. That's an utterly ridiculous interpretation. But at least you answered.

Take the other part of his comment. "As an American, I have a clear directive to support Israel."

Who does that come from? No specific person, just the cultural and historical context.

That should be all you need for an answer.

Ummm...he didn't say that. Here's what YOU posted:

Well, obviously, Israel is our oldest and most stable democratic ally in that region. That is what this is about. I also as a Christian have a clear directive to support Israel. So from my perspective, it's pretty easy. Both as an American and as a Christian, I am going to stand with Israel.​

mhaze, you posted the quote. You know very well that he didn't say that as an American he had a directive to support Israel! You just made it up!

Next time, you may want to adjust your opinion rather than having to make stuff up to support it.

-Bri

 

[mhaze]

Now I see why you didn't answer it the first 5 times the question was asked. That's an utterly ridiculous interpretation. ...

Evidence for the claim?

 

[Mark6]

Not very good.

Because to Perry, it was a theological issue, and he was asked about a theological question specifically.

So he gave an honest answer instead of trying to weasel out of it. Good for him.

Honest answer which indicates he is too dangerous to be in the White House.

 

[Toke]

So he gave an honest answer instead of trying to weasel out of it. Good for him.

Honest answer which indicates he is too dangerous to be in the White House.

And the danger is not just his use as a recruitment tool for muslin nutters.

 

[Bri]

Evidence for the claim?

That's my opinion. I guess you're entitled to yours, but I doubt very many people reading that line (other than Perry supporters who wish he hadn't said it) would take it as you claim to have.

Still, even your interpretation of Perry's remark doesn't help him. Had he meant something like "as a Christian, my conscience tells me to support Israel" one would still be left to wonder why he was basing a policy decision to support Israel on his religion.

Care to address the rest of my post, specifically the "quote" from Perry that you apparently just made up?

-Bri

 

[Mark6]

And the danger is not just his use as a recruitment tool for muslin nutters.

That's just a minor aspect of why he is dangerous.

 

[Toke]

That's just a minor aspect of why he is dangerous.

Yes.
A Perry/Bachmann ticket would make things even worse for americans than now.

 

[Piggy]

Let me know when Obama is asked questions bout responsibilitites in a "theological context".

wait...
waiting...
waiting......

1. That wasn't part of the question, so I reckon you're quoting yourself there. The question was, to what extent did Perry view America's continued protection of Israel as a theological imperative.

2. Obama does not have to have been asked a similar question in order for us to suss out whether or not he has ever made any statements similar to having a "clear directive" "as a Christian" to carry out US foreign policy in any particular way.

FWIW, I don't know of any incidence of Obama making such a statement.

And btw, Bush II was also very careful not to make such statements publicly, even though he said to French President Jacques Chirac in a private phone call that “Gog and Magog are at work in the Middle East", "the biblical prophecies are being fulfilled", and "this confrontation is willed by God, who wants to use this conflict to erase his people’s enemies before a New Age begins”.

This only came to light because Chirac, apparently not a Bible-believer himself, consulted a university theologean (Thomas Romer) about the reference, and he later spoke about the request, which was subsequently confirmed by Chirac.

Maybe Obama's making phone calls like that, too, and they just haven't come to light yet, who knows.

But in any case, if the baseline we're looking for is public statements, then no, there is nothing comparable from the current or previous President. Perry's statement is way off the range here.