UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

[ufology]

The 4000ft was calculated by being two thirds the height of the mountain or something.

The problem is ufology claims to be calculating, but if you run a calcultaion three times you get one answer. The story, and a factor in it has changed repeatedly. Amazingly the maths alters in response to criticism. How odd.

Tomtomkent:

You still seem to be confusing the horizontal distances with the vertical distance and how they were calculated. If you look at the illustration I made from the Google 3D, you'll see what I mean about "two thirds" the height of the mountain and how a visual estimate of 200 meters seems reasonable. The 300 ft. was some kind of error, I'd probably meant to say meters instead of feet and hit the 3 instead of the 2 on the keyboard. So what if I made a typo ... crucify me. Besides, it's the horizontal distances that reveal the objects incredible performance, and they could be estimated with reasonable accuracy using a map. Have you ever used a map to calculate distance? You do realize that it can be done quite easily right?

NOTE: The line marking North is purely for directional
purposes. The object went much farther north out of
this frame past Radium and Edgewater toward Golden.

 

[Akhenaten]

<a story>

Besides, the speed is already so incredible what more does anyone need?

Evidence, lacking which we're perfectly entitled to invoke the null hypothesis and regard this silly story as not having happened the way you'd like to remember it.

Divide that distance in half if you want and it's still beyond anything we've got.

Or multiply it by 8.3. Or take away the number you first thought of. Something with Π in it might be impressive.

I don't have any really good photos looking north from where I was, but if you Google Columbia Valley and Lake Windermere, Radium, Edgewater. You can get a pretty good idea of the landscape.

And no idea at all about what, if anything, your sightinig is based on.

 

[Akhenaten]

<snip>

NOTE: The line marking North is purely for directional
purposes. The object went much farther north out of
this frame past Radium and Edgewater toward Golden.

So it actually went, say, 30cm rather than the 3cm shown? Gosh!

 

[23_Tauri]

In Ruppelt's account of the F-86 chase, the pilot saw the object below him during the daylight and was able to dive in on it and view it from several different angles. He was able to see details well enough to estimate his distance at about 500 yards before the object sped off.

Was that just before or just after he shot at it with his imaginary gun?

 

[Tomtomkent]

Tomtomkent:

You still seem to be confusing the horizontal distances with the vertical distance and how they were calculated. If you look at the illustration I made from the Google 3D, you'll see what I mean about "two thirds" the height of the mountain and how a visual estimate of 200 meters seems reasonable. The 300 ft. was some kind of error, I'd probably meant to say meters instead of feet and hit the 3 instead of the 2 on the keyboard. So what if I made a typo ... crucify me. Besides, it's the horizontal distances that reveal the objects incredible performance, and they could be estimated with reasonable accuracy using a map. Have you ever used a map to calculate distance? You do realize that it can be done quite easily right?


[qimg]http://ufopages.com/AN-01.png[/qimg]

NOTE: The line marking North is purely for directional
purposes. The object went much farther north out of
this frame past Radium and Edgewater toward Golden.

Yes, but that only became "what you meant" after it was shown that two thirds the height of the mountain, 4000ft, did not resemble what you described.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Also; the horizontal distances show nothing, other than your own subjective estimates that are flawed. They have changed and continue to change, so must be rejected. All you offer is your opinion of what you saw, no evidence. Supply some or stop wasting posts.

 

[John Albert]

Well, if I've done the calculation correctly, a round object with a diameter of about six feet at a distance of about 3 kilometers would have an angular size of about 125 arc-seconds. This is about twice the apparent size of Venus at its largest, or about four times the apparent size of Jupiter.

JimOfAllTrades:

Thanks for the calculations there. But just to note. A VW is 13.55 feet long, so you can more than double your estimates, which sounds about right ( 8-9 times the apparent size of Jupiter ) for the core, and then there was a glow around the thing, that extended out about 3 times the width of the core all around it and tapered off fairly rapidly after that. So again, hardly a "point of light".

But how big would it appear from 25km away? Wasn't that the distance you cited for the time it allegedly first appeared moving down the mountainside?

I seriously doubt anybody could pick out an object the size of a compact car from that distance.

Ufology, in fact, appears to share many of the characteristics of a religion, as you seem to interpret the term.
Both center around a belief in immensely powerful and intelligent beings not bound by the normal laws of physics.
Both rely on highly subjective personal experience rather than empirical evidence.
Both reject obvious inconsistencies as to the methods, means, and motives of said beings with generalized statements that these aspects, by definition, are “unknowable” to mere humans.
Both attempt to affirm their particular belief systems , and to proselytize, by the use of shared personal (and subjective) experiences through written/oral narratives.
Both favor faith over logic, utilizing scientific methodology only when it suits their purposes.

Chuck,

From Wikipedia:

"Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that establishes symbols that relate humanity to spirituality and moral values."

Etymology: Religion (from O.Fr. religion "religious community," from L. religionem (nom. religio) "respect for what is sacred, reverence for the gods,"

We've already been through this before.

UFOlogy does indeed share many of the same basic characteristics as religion:

• the assumption of faith-based beliefs in super-powerful entities which operate outside the laws of nature (gods, extraterrestrials)

• emphasis on subjective experience rather than evidence or logic (miracles, mystical experiences, UFO sightings)

• emphasis on infallible written narratives (scriptures, UFO reports)

• emphasis on the infallibility of personal authority figures (religious leaders, UFOlogy "saints" such as Hynek, Ruppelt, Vallée, etc.)

• emphasis on confirmation instead of challenge to underlying beliefs (affirmations of faith, "ruling out" of non-ET causes)

• shifting of the burden of proof ("absence of evidence is not evidence of absence")

• allegations of persecution, and denigration of critics (demonization as "heretics"/"infidels"/"debunkers")

On the other hand, UFOlogists don't generally proselytize, don't subscribe to a common, predetermined set of codified dogmas (except "OMG...aliens!!!"), don't observe religious holidays or participate in regular services or rituals.

Ufology is not a religion.

I agree that UFOlogy in general is not a religion.

It is most appropriately classified as a pseudoscience.

It fits nearly all the identifying properties of a pseudoscience. In particular, it presents itself as the scientific study of an aspect of the material universe without material evidence or proper logical, critical thinking.

 

[Correa Neto]

[qimg]http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/CAC_Sabre.jpg[/qimg]​

The Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation (CAC) Sabre was introduced into the RAAF in 1955 to replace the Vampire and the Mustang. (both locally manufactured as well)


The first model was the MK 30, and it differed from the US version in several ways:

• The installation of Rolls Royce Avon turbojet engines and modified air intakes to accommodate the larger engine
  
  
• Revised cockpit layout
  
  
• Increased fuel capacity
  
  
• Installation of two 30mm cannons under the cockpit instead of six 0.5 inch machine guns mounted around the nose.

The MK 31 was also introduced in 1955 and differed from the MK 30 mainly in having a solid leading edge wing rather than the slatted type. This wing was ultimately retrofitted to the MK 30s.

The MK 32 (pictured above) was introduced in 1957. Its main features were the fitment of an Australian-built Avon 26 engine and introduction of the 'dual store' wing with four hard points as you've described for the US 'H' model.

Very cool.

You would get those coolness points for posting the pic, but since its missing the backwards-pointing radar used to detect UFOs coming from behind...

Oh, wait! Maybe only Iranian Air Force's F4s have them as standard item. Sorry.

 

[Resume]

Besides, the speed is already so incredible what more does anyone need? Divide that distance in half if you want and it's still beyond anything we've got.

Because of the very fact you allege such a speed requires more information. In this case, a bit of alien technology would be handy; ill-remembered 37 year old anecdotal half-dreams fall short.

 

[RoboTimbo]

On the other hand, UFOlogists don't generally proselytize,

Rramjet, ufology, edge, Stanton Friedman, Bill "Blinky" Birnes, Giorgio "High Hair" Tsoukalos, Erich von Däniken, etc.

don't subscribe to a common, predetermined set of codified dogmas (except "OMG...aliens!!!"),

The MJ 12 documents

don't observe religious holidays

Roswell annual festival (referred to as their Mecca)

or participate in regular services or rituals.

McMinnville UFO Festival, Roswell, Pine Bush UFO Festival, Exeter UFO Festival, Carlsbad, Kecksburg

Should we call it a pseudoreligion?

 

[carlitos]

On Google Earth:

Landing Zone: 50°26'32.96" N 115°56'34.17" W

My, but that is a very precise estimate.

was observed standing outside in the morning.

Sure it was.

Giorgio "High Hair" Tsoukalos

I had never heard of this guy until yesterday. I was randomly flipping through channels after football got boring and I heard him on SiriusXM "The Virus." He was awesome. Ancient aliens, Puma Punku, all kinds of good stuff.

 

[Cuddles]

I woudn't say any well reasoned account is worthless.

How is this relevant to a discussion of your account?

 

[John Albert]

On the other hand, UFOlogists don't generally proselytize

Rramjet, ufology, edge, Stanton Friedman, Bill "Blinky" Birnes, Giorgio "High Hair" Tsoukalos, Erich von Däniken, etc.

Ah, yes, well I guess that activity might be viewed as a form of preaching.

Point taken.

So UFOlogy has one more thing in common with religion. I still maintain that it's a pseudoscience and not a religion, for the other reasons I cited.

 

[Stray Cat]

I think that which ever 'category' the several bits of it seem to fit in to, the prefix 'pseudo' seem apt.
As the subject of UFOlogy is always some pale imitation of religion, science, investigation or entertainment etc.

 

[edge]

ufology, You can use any of my experiences that I have wrote about in here on your site if you want to.
P.M. me if you want to discuss this.

 

[Sideroxylon]

I think I saw a strange light in the early hours of the morning while camping in the Australian outback. It must have been about thirty five odd years ago, and I am not sure if I dreamt it or not, but you can use that too if you like.

 

[ufology]

Yes, but that only became "what you meant" after it was shown that two thirds the height of the mountain, 4000ft, did not resemble what you described.

Wrong. Your're still confused and don't seem to care to know the truth of it either.

 

[carlitos]

Wrong. Your're still confused and don't seem to care to know the truth of it either.

Still projecting, I see. Your inability to convince people of the truth of your ever-changing story is all on you.

 

[ufology]

Still projecting, I see. Your inability to convince people of the truth of your ever-changing story is all on you.

Wrong. It's the truth of what has taken place here I was referring to. It's the responsibility of the poster to understand what has taken place on the forum before making their comments. Convincing them my story is true has nothing to do with it.

 

[Stray Cat]

Wrong. Your're still confused and don't seem to care to know the truth of it either.

No, he's right. You offered the figure of 4608 feet yourself, you must have done some calculations to get that figure. When I posted the graphic showing it couldn't have been correct, you then back tracked.