Merged Electric Sun Theory (Split from: CME's, active regions and high energy flares)

[GeeMack]

The idiocy of living in pure denial has also been explained to you many times. Why do you continue to deny that electrical discharges occur in plasmas?

Would that be like Dungey's use of the term "electrical discharge", as in high current densities resulting from a magnetic reconnection event, or the more conventional use of the term "electrical discharge", like lightning here on Earth, which is impossible in the atmosphere of the Sun for reasons made abundantly clear throughout this thread?

 

[Michael Mozina]

Would that be like Dungey's use of the term "electrical discharge", as in high current densities resulting from a magnetic reconnection event, or the more conventional use of the term "electrical discharge", like lightning here on Earth, which is impossible in the atmosphere of the Sun for reasons made abundantly clear throughout this thread?

None of the above. It would be Peratt's use and definition of the term "electrical discharge" in a plasma.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Peratt:

1 .5 Electrίcal Discharges in Cosmic Plasma

An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy. This generally occurs when the electromagnetic stress exceeds some threshold for breakdown that is usually determined by small scale properties of the energy transmission medium. As such, discharges are local phenomena and are usually accompanied by violent processes such as rapid heating, ionization, the creation of pinched and filamentary conduction channels, particle acceleration, and the generation of prodigious amounts of electromagnetic radiation. As an example, multi-terawatt pulsed-power generators on earth rely on strong electrical discharges to produce intense particle beams, Χrays, and microwανes . Megajoules of energy are electrically stored in capacitor banks, whose volume may encompass 250 m^3 . This energy is then transferred to a discharge regίοn, located many meters from the source, viα a transmission line.

The discharge region, or load, encompasses at most a few cubic centimeters of space, and is the site of high-variability, intense, electromagnetic radiation (Figure 1 .2). On earth, lightning is another example of the discharge mechanism at work where electrostatic energy is stored in clouds whose volume may be of the order of 3,000 km3. This energy is released in a few cubic meters of the discharge channel.

 

[nvidiot]

Are these discharges the same processes as lightning on earth? And how would you prove that?

(As if we haven't been down this road countless times)

 

[Michael Mozina]

Are these discharges the same processes as lightning on earth? And how would you prove that?

(As if we haven't been down this road countless times)

Actually, the proof would be found in the papers I provided earlier IMO. We can prove that iron is ionized by electrical discharges and we observe highly ionized iron in SDO images. We observe neutron capture signatures from electrical discharges in labs on Earth, and we observe them in Rhessi images of solar flare events too. We produce million degree plasmas with electrical discharges on Earth and coronal loops reach million of degrees. Each and every key high energy observation from the solar atmosphere has been physically and empirically linked to electrical discharges. No other proposed mechanism comes close.

 

[GeeMack]

None of the above. It would be Peratt's use and definition of the term "electrical discharge" in a plasma.

Then we can finally leave behind all the irrelevant comparisons between activity in the Sun's atmosphere and electrical discharges analogous to lightning here on Earth.

Peratt's alleged definition of an electrical discharge is pretty vague, but I don't think anyone in this discussion is denying that a sudden release of magnetic stored energy can occur in the plasma of the Sun's atmosphere. That pretty much directly applies to the concept of magnetic reconnection.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Then we can finally leave behind all the irrelevant comparisons between activity in the Sun's atmosphere and electrical discharges analogous to lightning here on Earth.

No....... Peratt's definition clearly includes such electrical discharges as a SUBSET (one type) of an electrical discharge. Didn't you read the definition and see that it INCLUDES the comparison?

Peratt's alleged definition of an electrical discharge is pretty vague, but I don't think anyone in this discussion is denying that a sudden release of magnetic stored energy can occur in the plasma of the Sun's atmosphere. That pretty much directly applies to the concept of magnetic reconnection.

By George, I think he's got it!

 

[Michael Mozina]

If.....

If "magnetic reconnection" is necessary, what's the actual benefit?

None of you can show any laboratory connection between highly ionized iron and "magnetic reconnection", whereas I can already do that with 'electrical discharges'. What the hell is the value of MR theory anyway? I can create neutron capture signatures without it, and you can't do that in the lab. I can create million degree plasmas with ordinary electricity too. What exactly is the benefit of 'magnetic reconnection' when you can't get it to do anything useful in the lab, let alone show it has an empirical connection to SDO images?

 

[nvidiot]

Actually, the proof would be found in the papers I provided earlier IMO.

I don't really care for your opinion, I care about what you can prove. Where in the various papers you have provided can you show that the discharges you claim to see in images are the same as lightning on earth?

We can prove that iron is ionized by electrical discharges and we observe highly ionized iron in SDO images.

I don't believe that you have any evidence of the cause of the ionisation of the trace amounts of iron. You see ionisation and assume electrical discharges cause it. Where is your proof?

We observe neutron capture signatures from electrical discharges in labs on Earth, and we observe them in Rhessi images of solar flare events too.

I can probably show neutron capture signatures from hydrogen bomb explosions on earth as well.

But in any case, assertion isn't proof or even evidence. Show your work, and your evidence.

We produce million degree plasmas with electrical discharges on Earth and coronal loops reach million of degrees.

I can make million degree plasmas with lasers as well. Does this show that the corona is a laser? No.

Each and every key high energy observation from the solar atmosphere has been physically and empirically linked to electrical discharges.

Evidence is required for this. I don't think, after all this time, you understand what empirical means. Heck, it's blatantly obvious you don't know what the processes are which are involved in lightning itself.

No other proposed mechanism comes close.

You can't quantify your mechanism to begin with, so how about starting with that? What kind of charge separation are we talking about when you claim electrical discharges cause flare events? More to the point, how do you measure this, and what evidence can you provide that these flare events are in fact electrical in nature aside from "It looks like a lightning bolt in certain images"?

 

[Michael Mozina]

What is your excuse anyway?

I can understand why you don't do the lab work when it comes to your other mythical mathical, impotent on Earth sky thingamabobs. On the other hand, what's your excuse for making no empirical connection between "magnetic reconnection" and solar satellite imagery? I can directly and empirically link neutron capture signatures that appear in RHESSI satellite images to electrical discharges through plasma in laboratory experiments with real control mechanisms. I can directly link electrical discharges to gamma rays and RHESSI even observe such gamma rays during discharge events on Earth. I show an empirical link between electrical discharges and million degree plasmas too. I can empirically link electrical discharges to high iron ionization states that appear in SDO images.

Not a single one of you can show a laboratory experiment that directly links "magnetic reconnection" the a single wavelength in an SDO image. You've never empirically linked it to gamma rays or neutron capture signatures either.

What's you excuse this time? I can understand when your sky thingy is impotent on Earth, but surely magnetic reconnection isn't impotent on Earth. You've already claimed it does stuff in the lab in fact. So why haven't you empirically linked it to single iron ion wavelength in an SDO image yet?

 

[Reality Check]

Citaions to experiments on electrical discharges in plasmas

Actually, the proof would be found in the papers I provided earlier IMO. We can prove that iron is ionized by electrical discharges

Worng: We can prove that iron is ionized by any high temperatures.
One way of doing this here on Earth is by using electrical discharges (i.e. lightning).
Another way could be to use a nuclear bomb (I doubt whether the experiment has be done).

and we observe highly ionized iron in SDO images.

Yes there is plenty of ionized iron, espcially in the cornoa.
All that means is that the plasma is hot.
So the question is how does it get hot?
We can exclude electrical discharges because they are impossile in plasma.
But you must have lots of papers on experiments that explicitly look at electrical discharges in plasmas in labs here on Earth. I am not talking about your previous Google-type result of plasma experiments that mention electrical or discharge since many plasmas are created using electrical discharges. I am talking about experiments that explicitly study the properties of electrical discharges within plasma.

Each and every key high energy observation from the solar atmosphere has been physically and empirically linked to electrical discharges. No other proposed mechanism comes close.

You are mistaken still:

1. No electrical discharge has been observed in the solar atmosphere.
2. No electrical discharge is possible in the solar atmosphere.
3. The proposed mechanism of magnetic reconnection comes closer because it is physically possible.

OBSERVATIONAL SIGNATURES OF MAGNETIC RECONNECTION (PDF) is a review from 2003. Note the the authors are explicit that there have been no direct observations of magnetic reconnection on the Sun and that is possibly the case still.

 

[Michael Mozina]

I don't really care for your opinion, I care about what you can prove. Where in the various papers you have provided can you show that the discharges you claim to see in images are the same as lightning on earth?

I'm not suggesting that they are 'exactly' the same. They are "similar" in that LARGE CURRENTS heat the plasma and sustains it while the currents flow. It is not exactly the same because the conditions are slightly different.

I don't believe that you have any evidence of the cause of the ionisation of the trace amounts of iron. You see ionisation and assume electrical discharges cause it. Where is your proof?

http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1974ApJ...190..467L/0000467.000.html

One of the papers I cited demonstrates that one CAN ionize iron to high energy states with an electrical discharge. Can you cite me any experiment where highly ionized iron was created with "magnetic reconnection" here on Earth?

Where is your evidence that there is a logical viable alternative?

I can probably show neutron capture signatures from hydrogen bomb explosions on earth as well.

Ya, probably. How would you suggest fusion might occur in the solar atmosphere where we see such examples of neutron capture signatures? Why wouldn't that occur all the time?

But in any case, assertion isn't proof or even evidence. Show your work, and your evidence.

Let's talk "empirical demonstration". It has already been "empirically demonstrated" that electrical discharges are connected to the following key solar flare observations:

Million degree plasmas
Gamma rays
Neutron capture signatures
X-rays
Highly Ionized Iron

Plus (bonus): It occurs "naturally" in other atmospheres of other bodies in the same solar system.

Which other proposed mechanism even scores an empirical 2 out of 5 in the lab?

I can make million degree plasmas with lasers as well. Does this show that the corona is a laser? No.

No, but at least you have shown that it COULD BE done with a laser which is more than can be done for "magnetic reconnection". Even *IF* magnetic reconnection could heat plasma to millions of degrees it wouldn't "automatically" mean that it was NECESSARILY the cause, but they can't even make heat plasma to millions of degrees to start with. See a problem?

Evidence is required for this. I don't think, after all this time, you understand what empirical means. Heck, it's blatantly obvious you don't know what the processes are which are involved in lightning itself.

Well, I know 'empirical evidence' and I know "mathematical BS" as well. Empirical evidence is found in the lab. At least your laser is more powerful in the lab than anything they've done with "magnetic reconnection". In fact in one so called "magnetic reconnection" experiment they used a couple of lasers to create two "currents" and then the reconnected the two "currents' and called it "magnetic reconnection". I suppose they should have called it "laser reconnection".

You can't quantify your mechanism to begin with, so how about starting with that?

I did that with the Mann and Onel paper actually. I liked that one a lot actually because they tied it back to solar satellite images.
http://arxiv.org/abs/0908.0813

What kind of charge separation are we talking about when you claim electrical discharges cause flare events? More to the point, how do you measure this, and what evidence can you provide that these flare events are in fact electrical in nature aside from "It looks like a lightning bolt in certain images"?

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1986stpr.rept..409A

 

[Michael Mozina]

RC, the bottom line is that our magnetic reconnection god is a total dud in the lab. Out of a possible score of 5 on the scale above it scores exactly 0 in the lab. Electrical discharges score a perfect 5 *AND* they get the bonus point. It's not even an empirical race. Your MR god is an empirical wimp.

 

[Reality Check]

MM: Your memory is appalling.
Tim Thompson and I have cited MR experiments that reach "millions of degrees" before.

10th March 2010

Do you mean "A) Million degree temperatures"? If that's what you meant, why isn't it what you said?

Mass-Dependent Ion Heating during Magnetic Reconnection in a Laboratory Plasma
Noncollisional ion heating in laboratory and astrophysical plasmas and the mechanism of conversion of magnetic energy to ion thermal energy are not well understood. In the Madison Symmetric Torus reversed-field pinch experiment, ions are heated rapidly during impulsive reconnection, attaining temperatures exceeding hundreds of eV, often well in excess of the electron temperature. The energy budget of the ion heating and its mass scaling in hydrogen, deuterium, and helium plasmas were determined by measuring the fraction of the released magnetic energy converted to ion thermal energy. The fraction ranges from about 10%–30% and increases approximately as the square root of the ion mass. A simple model based on stochastic ion heating is proposed that is consistent with the experimental data.
​

One electron Volt (eV) of energy translates into 11,605 Kelvins of temperature. Obviously, 100 eV is therefore 1,160,500 Kelvins. So, when the abstract says "hundreds of eV" that translates into "millions of degrees" (Kelvin). See also 3D Reconnection and Flow Dynamics in the Ssx Experiment, as pointed out by Reality Check, which also specifies million degree plasma resulting from magnetic reconnection in a laboratory experiment. And see Energetic particle studies in a laboratory plasma experiment, which specifies maximum energy in excess of 200 eV (that's in excess of 2 million Kelvins).

 

[Michael Mozina]

Oh, pardon me. It scored a 1 out of 5. Still a wussy.

 

[Reality Check]

Where is the discussion of 'electrical discharges in plasma' in any textbook

Peratt:

Peratt:

1 .5 Electrίcal Discharges in Cosmic Plasma

An electrical discharge is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy. This generally occurs when the electromagnetic stress exceeds some threshold for breakdown that is usually determined by small scale properties of the energy transmission medium. As such, discharges are local phenomena and are usually accompanied by violent processes such as rapid heating, ionization, the creation of pinched and filamentary conduction channels, particle acceleration, and the generation of prodigious amounts of electromagnetic radiation. As an example, multi-terawatt pulsed-power generators on earth rely on strong electrical discharges to produce intense particle beams, Χrays, and microwανes . Megajoules of energy are electrically stored in capacitor banks, whose volume may encompass 250 m^3 . This energy is then transferred to a discharge regίοn, located many meters from the source, viα a transmission line.

The discharge region, or load, encompasses at most a few cubic centimeters of space, and is the site of high-variability, intense, electromagnetic radiation (Figure 1 .2). On earth, lightning is another example of the discharge mechanism at work where electrostatic energy is stored in clouds whose volume may be of the order of 3,000 km3. This energy is released in a few cubic meters of the discharge channel.

You really know how to shoot yourself in the foot !
You quote Peratt giving lightning as an example of an electrical discharge. Lightning requires the breakdown of a dielectric medium (air) as he mentions above.

What you do not cite is any author discussing an actual electrical discharge in a plasma (Dungey's high current density is caused by magnetic reconnection which you deny exists). So let us point out yet another problem with your assertion:
Micheal Mozina
Where is the comprehensive discussion of 'electrical discharges in plasma' in any plasma physics textbook ever published?

Peratt's book was published in the 80's. In the last 30 years, many textbooks have been written on plasma physics. They should all include that all important 'electrical discharges in plasma' chapter with all of the physics and mathematics.

• Where are Peratt's many pages of the physics and mathematics of electrical discharges within plasma?
  First asked 7 December 2010
• Do you know the difference between a title and a definition
  First asked 11 January 2011
• Why does Peratt's page talk about aurora and lightning which happen in air not plasma?
  First asked 3rd February 2011
• MM: Why does the title of Anthony Peratt's book appear in the section 1.5 title?
  Shouldn't the title be "Electrical discharges in Plasma"?
  Or what is the magical property of "cosmic" plasmas that allows lightning in them when lightning is impossible in normal plasmas?
  First asked 11th May 2011

 

[Reality Check]

RC, the bottom line is that our magnetic reconnection god is a total dud in the lab. .

You are displayng your ignorance again. This is not the Religion section.
There is no 'magnetic reconnection god' here.

The many experiments that have observed magnetci reconenciton in the lab means magnetic reconnetion exists.

 

[ben m]

On the other hand, what's your excuse for making no empirical connection between "magnetic reconnection" and solar satellite imagery?

I have a very good excuse.

I've been implanted with a false belief that there's a vast literature on laboratory plasma physics, including the Magnetic Reconnection Experiment at Princeton Plasma Physics Lab. In fact, I've been implanted with the belief that there are 1000 citations to 50-some MRX papers in the peer-reviewed research literature. The CIA must be beaming this directly to my brain or something---if it was all real, you'd be able to see it too, right?

That's my excuse, anyway. It's the CIA.

 

[GeeMack]

Then we can finally leave behind all the irrelevant comparisons between activity in the Sun's atmosphere and electrical discharges analogous to lightning here on Earth.

No....... Peratt's definition clearly includes such electrical discharges as a SUBSET (one type) of an electrical discharge.

If that is a realistic assessment of Peratt's position, then either his definition was irrelevant to anything that happens in the solar atmosphere or he didn't know what he was talking about. Electrical discharges analogous to lightning here on Earth cannot occur in the plasma of the solar atmosphere for reasons made abundantly clear throughout this thread.

Didn't you read the definition and see that it INCLUDES the comparison?

I read Peratt's alleged definition. It was so vague it appears to include magnetic reconnection events and the release of resistance I feel when pulling a magnet off my refrigerator. Neither of those has anything to do with an electrical discharge like a bolt of lightning. And if he thought pulling a magnet from my refrigerator, which is a sudden release of electric or magnetic stored energy, could reasonably be termed an electrical discharge, Peratt was one seriously poor communicator.

By George, I think he's got it!

If "got it" is supposed to mean I understand Peratt's use of the term electrical discharge was so vague as to be useless to this discussion, then yes, I do have it.

 

[Michael Mozina]

FYI Tim....

http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/images/sdo/shockwave.jpg

I quickly pulled a frame out of the image and marked the specific items I'm talking about.

0-is the mass flow movement that can be seen in that image
1-is the leading angular edge of the ridge that splits the shockwave in two
2-is valley that the top part of the shockwave goes through
3-is the main part of the ridge
4-is the southern shockwave front that is shooting down the valley
5-is an example of wispy coronal loops being blown around in by the shockwave