Perry no longer thinks SS is a Ponzi scheme.

As has been pointed out to you numerous times, the key, defining characteristic of a Ponzi scheme is that old participants are paid with income from new participants. That's what is happening now with SS, therefore it in fact does resemble a Ponzi scheme.
No. The key defining characteristic of a Ponzi Scheme is that it's fraud where investors are misled as to the value of an investment.

As I've said repeatedly, if it only means what you're saying, then virtually all taxpayer financed programs may accurately be called Ponzi Schemes.

Is unemployment a Ponzi Scheme? Are you somehow a victim of a fraud if you never need to collect unemployment? :rolleyes:



Not yet, but it will be according to the trustees unless changes are made. Dems and the GOP are afraid to touch it out of fear that the other side will characterize any fix as trying to throw grandma under the bus. So they happily kick the can down the road. I don't know if the FL poll is a reflection of Perry's bringing the topic up, but it very well could be.
There's still plenty of time, and the fixes need not be tremendously draconian. Calling Social Security a Ponzi Scheme is simply wrong. I'm amazed that you're still defending this obvious falsehood.

And I have accurately described the Trustee's report.
 
No. The key defining characteristic of a Ponzi Scheme is that it's fraud where investors are misled as to the value of an investment.
You need to brush up a bit on your definitions. Virtually any investment in which returns are exaggerated or contain misleading facts would be a Ponzi scheme under your definition, and that is clearly not true.

As I've said repeatedly, if it only means what you're saying, then virtually all taxpayer financed programs may accurately be called Ponzi Schemes.

Is unemployment a Ponzi Scheme? Are you somehow a victim of a fraud if you never need to collect unemployment? :rolleyes:
Your weak analogy continues to fail.

There's still plenty of time, and the fixes need not be tremendously draconian.
Sure there's time, and that's the rationale that everyone uses to kick the can down the road--let someone else take the heat for fixing it.

Calling Social Security a Ponzi Scheme is simply wrong. I'm amazed that you're still defending this obvious falsehood.
It's an accurate analogy of the similar structures:
One criticism of the analogy is that while Ponzi schemes and Social Security have similar structures (in particular, a sustainability problem when the number of new people paying in is declining), they have different transparencies.
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_%28United_States%29
 
You need to brush up a bit on your definitions. Virtually any investment in which returns are exaggerated or contain misleading facts would be a Ponzi scheme under your definition, and that is clearly not true.
No. Your reasoning is incorrect, and I am using an accurate definition of a Ponzi Scheme. I was pointing out what the defining characteristic of a Ponzi Scheme is. And you left out the part about that deception being accomplished by paying some investors with money that doesn't come from the investment (either money from other investors, or money from the pocket of the con artist).

And yet again I point out that the only characteristic Social Security has in common with it is one that virtually all tax-payer financed programs have in common with it. So it's an abuse of the language to pretend that Social Security is a Ponzi Scheme or even that it's like a Ponzi Scheme.


Your weak analogy continues to fail.
I made no analogy. So there was no analogy to fail. Please re-read what I posted.

Sure there's time, and that's the rationale that everyone uses to kick the can down the road--let someone else take the heat for fixing it.
Pointing out that there is no current crisis is not kicking the can down the road. It's just refuting inflammatory and false statements.

And we can debate the best way to fix Social Security, but if you actually believe it's a Ponzi Scheme, the only correct thing to do would be to stop it immediately and put the prosecute the con artists for fraud. But the problem Social Security faces due to changing demographics is a problem that can readily be fix if and only if you recognize that Social Security is not a Ponzi Scheme and is worth tweaking to guarantee its long-term solvency.

It's an accurate analogy of the similar structures: - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_%28United_States%29
Is not.

Again, a Ponzi Scheme is a criminal fraud that misleads investors about the value of an investment by paying some investors money that didn't come from the investment. Social Security is not an investment. It's a taxpayer financed safety net to benefit retirees and the disabled. The taxes are not voluntary (as an investment is--such that victims of a Ponzi Scheme can be scammed into buying). No value has been misrepresented by anyone.

The fact that taxes collected aren't reserved for the benefit of the people who pay those taxes is pretty much true of any taxpayer funded program. Again, this is no scam. The very first month Social Security taxes were collected, benefit checks also went out. (Meaning people who never paid in received benefits.) It's similar, in that regard, to Medicare, except that Social Security only currently taxes the first ~$100K of earnings while Medicare taxes all earnings.

The notion that people should only get benefits equal to what they paid in is strange. The notion that Social Security will inevitably fail before young workers of today reach retirement age is false.
 
No. Your reasoning is incorrect, and I am using an accurate definition of a Ponzi Scheme. I was pointing out what the defining characteristic of a Ponzi Scheme is.
And you are wrong. I've provided multiple definitions from different sources, including this one from Wikipedia, in this an the other thread proving that the structure of SS is similar to what defines a Ponzi scheme, yet you continue to flail away with your own made up, silly analogies to all other tax funded programs to try to make your failed case.

Pointing out that there is no current crisis is not kicking the can down the road.
Right, nothing to see here, just move along. Nothing to worry about. Don't want to get them voters all riled up now, let someone else deal with the political fallout...

And we can debate the best way to fix Social Security, but if you actually believe it's a Ponzi Scheme, the only correct thing to do would be to stop it immediately and put the prosecute the con artists for fraud.
No, that's not the only correct action to take. If the structure now is the same as a Ponzi scheme, which it is by definition, changes need to be made to the income or payouts so that it is not on a path to insolvency as the trustees now say that it is.

The notion that Social Security will inevitably fail before young workers of today reach retirement age is false.
The SS trustees report that it will run out of funds unless changes are made. "Inevitably" depends on whether changes are made or not.
 
No, that's not the only correct action to take. If the structure now is the same as a Ponzi scheme, which it is by definition, changes need to be made to the income or payouts so that it is not on a path to insolvency as the trustees now say that it is.

The path to insolvency is over 25 years away (and results in payments continuing at 80% of the proper amounts). There's a LOT of time to fix it adequately.

It is not fair to label it as a Ponzi Scheme, because such schemes are intentional scams and a lot of the potential problems that happen in such schemes (like getting initial investors to put more money in after initial returns) can't happen in SS. The whole approach is really just the wrong way to look at it when it is really just a social safety net that is projected to have some budget problems in over a couple decades if things continue as they are now.

Now, let's look at the definition more carefully (from wikipedia):

A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from any actual profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation.

Ok, let's pretend this is an investment operation, which is arguable. Are the people paid by "actual profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation"? Yes, they are. NOT a Ponzi scheme.

The fact it is predicted to have trouble in the future is something that can happen to any legitimate investment. Future problems do not a Ponzi Scheme make.

The Ponzi scheme usually entices new investors by offering returns other investments cannot guarantee, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent.

Not true at all for SS.

The perpetuation of the returns that a Ponzi scheme advertises and pays requires an ever-increasing flow of money from investors to keep the scheme going.

Only so long as the retired population grows. It is far from essential to how SS works. And in fact, money from any investor gets cut off at a specific point, decidedly NOT requiring an ever-increasing flow from any investor.

So yeah, totally not a Ponzi scheme.
 
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As has been pointed out to you numerous times, the key, defining characteristic of a Ponzi scheme is that old participants are paid with income from new participants. That's what is happening now with SS, therefore it in fact does resemble a Ponzi scheme.

PolitiFact disagrees that Social Security is a Ponzi scheme:

Mitchell Zuckoff, a Boston University journalism professor who has written a book on Ponzi, noted three critical dissimilarities between Social Security and a Ponzi scheme, which by definition is both fraudulent and unsustainable.

"First, in the case of Social Security, no one is being misled," Zuckoff wrote in a January 2009 article in Fortune. "...Social Security is exactly what it claims to be: A mandatory transfer payment system under which current workers are taxed on their incomes to pay benefits, with no promises of huge returns."

Second, he wrote, "A Ponzi scheme is unsustainable because the number of potential investors is eventually exhausted. That's when the last people to participate are out of luck; the music stops and there's nowhere to sit. It's true that Social Security faces a huge burden — and a significant, long-term financing problem — in light of retiring Baby Boomers. … But Social Security can be, and has been, tweaked and modified to reflect changes in the size of the taxpaying workforce and the number of beneficiaries. It would take great political will, but the government could change benefit formulas or take other steps, like increasing taxes, to keep the system from failing."

Third, Zuckoff wrote, "Social Security is morally the polar opposite of a Ponzi scheme... At the height of the Great Depression, our society (see "Social") resolved to create a safety net (see "Security") in the form of a social insurance policy that would pay modest benefits to retirees, the disabled and the survivors of deceased workers. By design, that means a certain amount of wealth transfer, with richer workers subsidizing poorer ones.That might rankle, but it's not fraud... None of this is to suggest that Social Security is a perfect system or that there aren't sizeable problems facing the incoming administration and Congress. But it's not a Ponzi scheme. And Ponzi himself, who died in a hospital charity ward with only enough money for his burial, would never have recognized it as his own."​

The Washington Post Fact Checker disagrees that Social Security is a Ponzi scheme:

Perhaps the governor does not know the dictionary definition of a Ponzi scheme. Here’s what Merriam-Webster says: “An investment swindle in which some early investors are paid off with money put up by later ones in order to encourage more and bigger risks.”

This is a frequent mistake politicians make when talking about Social Security. It is not an investment vehicle; it is intended to provide income security as well disability and life insurance. Just more than 60 percent of the 54 million beneficiaries are retired workers; the rest are disabled workers, dependents or survivors.

Social Security is a pay-as-you-go system, which means that payments collected today are immediately used to pay benefits. Until recently, more payments were collected than were needed for benefits. So Social Security loaned the money to the U.S. government, which used it for other things. In exchange, Social Security received interest-bearing Treasury securities. The value of those bonds is now about $2.6 trillion. (We have written about this at length.)

In any case, Perry is wrong to label Social Security a Ponzi scheme. Ponzi schemes ultimately go bust and everyone (except possibly early investors) generally loses their money. Social Security faces a long-term funding issue, but one that most experts say is manageable. After all, the Social Security actuary says that Social Security’s shortfall is 0.7 percent of the gross domestic product over the next 75 years.​

FactCheck disagrees that Social Security is a Ponzi scheme:

Opinions differ about whether Perry’s choice of words is politically wise. Factually, however, his statements are gross exaggerations.

The system is certainly in financial trouble and can’t pay all the future benefits it promises without a substantial tax increase. And it does pay current beneficiaries mainly from the taxes paid by current workers (and their employers) who expect to draw benefits in the future. Perry is correct to that extent, and the system’s trustees have warned about that repeatedly over the years. The most recent report states that Social Security is “not sustainable under currently scheduled financing, and will require legislative modifications if disruptive consequences for beneficiaries and taxpayers are to be avoided.”

But the system doesn’t meet the common definition of a “Ponzi,” which is a criminal fraud, relying on deception. The Securities and Exchange Commission, for example, says a Ponzi is “an investment fraud that involves the payment of purported returns to existing investors from funds contributed by new investors.” Ponzi schemes draw their name from Charles Ponzi, who in the 1920s promised his victims that he could provide a 50 percent return in 90 days by putting their money into a speculation scheme involving postage stamps. In reality, Ponzi simply paid early “investors” big returns with the money eagerly offered by others who came later — pocketing millions for himself — until the bubble inevitably collapsed. Bernard Madoff’s more recent fraud — while much larger — was another example of a Ponzi scheme. Madoff and Ponzi lied to their victims about where their money was going, while Social Security’s finances — while troubled — are an open book.​

CNN disagrees that Social Security is a Ponzi scheme:

Perry is incorrect when he indicates that Social Security won't "be there" for today's younger workers. Contribution levels will have to be raised in order to avoid future benefit cuts, but it is not a "monstrous lie" to say the program will continue even if nothing is done.

As for Perry's characterization of Social Security as a "Ponzi scheme," the Securities and Exchange Commission defines such a scheme as "an investment fraud that involves the payment of purported returns to existing investors from funds contributed by new investors."

It is true that benefits to current Social Security recipients are paid for in part by new members of the workforce. But Social Security is not a fraudulent criminal enterprise designed only to benefit current participants in the program. It is a legitimate government program meant to serve both current and future generations of retirees.​

Finally, your own source (Wikipedia) does not say that Social Security is a Ponzi scheme. Rather it points out that some people have called it a Ponzi scheme, while others have criticized the analogy:

One criticism of the analogy is that while Ponzi schemes and Social Security have similar structures (in particular, a sustainability problem when the number of new people paying in is declining), they have different transparencies. In a Ponzi scheme the fact there is no return generating mechanism beyond just contributions from new entrants is obscured whereas Social Security payouts have always been openly underwritten by incoming tax revenue. Private sector Ponzi schemes cannot be sustained indefinitely, whereas Social Security's benefits can theoretically always be sustained by raising taxes on new participants and reducing promised payouts. Because of these and other issues, Robert E. Wright calls Social Security a "quasi" pyramid scheme in his book, Fubarnomics.​

-Bri
 
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The path to insolvency is over 25 years away. There's a LOT of time to fix it adequately.
Yep, as I said, that is the rationale everyone uses to push the fix down the road so that someone else will deal with the fallout. Pity the parties 20 years from now that really have to deal with it. No worries for the current politicians though, they'll be happily enjoying their retirement by then, with or without SS.

It is not fair to label it as a Ponzi Scheme, because such schemes are intentional scams and a lot of the potential problems that happen in such schemes (like getting initial investors to put more money in after initial returns) can't happen in SS.
It's both accurate and fair to say that SS and a Ponzi scheme share the same flawed structure of paying old participants with new participants money, BECAUSE THEY DO.

Are the people paid by "actual profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation"? Yes, they are. NOT a Ponzi scheme.
Older participants are being paid by new contributors. SAME as a Ponzi scheme.

The fact it is predicted to have trouble in the future is something that can happen to any legitimate investment. Future problems do not a Ponzi Scheme make.
Of course, and a bad investment alone does not define a Ponzi scheme.

There are some very real differences between SS and a Ponzi scheme, yet some very real similarities and the main one is the fact that the structure is the same, "Ponzi schemes and Social Security have similar structures (in particular, a sustainability problem when the number of new people paying in is declining)" - Wikipedia
 
...Are the people paid by "actual profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation"? Yes, they are. NOT a Ponzi scheme.
1.Government does not make a profit. 2. People who reached the age of eligibility one day after the act passed collected benefits. They invested nothing. The fiction of "accounts" is a fraud that designers built in because Americans at the time opposed the dole. In response to a suit against Old Age and Survivors' Insurance (the official name) by a group who opposed insurance on religious grounds (betting against God's will), a court later held that OASI was not "insurance" as claimed but a tax.
...The fact it is predicted to have trouble in the future is something that can happen to any legitimate investment.
It's not an investment. It's a State-sponsored charity.
The Ponzi scheme usually entices new investors by offering returns other investments cannot guarantee, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent.
Not true at all for SS.
The unusual consistency of tax-subsidized programs is often the SS selling point, for advocates. Otherwise, people could suffer "the vagaries of the market".
So yeah, totally not a Ponzi scheme.
Experts disagree.
“In practice it has turned out to be strongly redistributionist, but only because of its Ponzi game aspect, in which each generation takes more out than it put in. Well, the Ponzi game will soon be over, thanks to changing demographics, so that the typical recipient henceforth will get only about as much as he or she put in.” That is, as with all Ponzi schemes, reality is obliging people to catch on.

Oh, the Nobel economist quoted above is Paul Krugman.
 
1.Government does not make a profit. 2. People who reached the age of eligibility one day after the act passed collected benefits. They invested nothing. The fiction of "accounts" is a fraud that designers built in because Americans at the time opposed the dole. In response to a suit against Old Age and Survivors' Insurance (the official name) by a group who opposed insurance on religious grounds (betting against God's will), a court later held that OASI was not "insurance" as claimed but a tax. It's not an investment. It's a State-sponsored charity.

1. They can invest things and make a profit on those investments.

2. Those people are dead, so it doesn't really matter.

3. It's fine to look at it as a social safety net (since you can get money from it without putting any in). That's certainly a better way to examine it, imho. That makes it even less of a Ponzi scheme.

Experts disagree.

Appeal to authority rejected.

Heck, you are arguing two conflicting opinions here. One that it isn't an investment, and the other that it is and it's a Ponzi scheme. So color me unimpressed with your stance here, which seems to be "attack social security."
 
No, they don't. You are ignoring the very definition you linked to.



A Ponzi scheme works by only moving money the investors put in it around. SS works by paying current beneficiaries and then investing the rest of the incoming money. That's a profound difference. .....
A lot of very, very reasonable people would not consider giving the money to yourself "investing". If SS was actually investing it would have a fiduciary responsibility to invest wisely. But it does not do that, and cannot do that, because it is not independent of the US Government.

It cannot have a diversified portfolio, and it cannot react to risk in it's selection of securities.

Thus rather than say it "invests", isn't it better to say it "hands the money over to the US Government to spend?"

Finally it is a rather curious sort of "investment" where the customer whose money is "invested" himself pays the interest on the security....
 
1. They can invest things and make a profit on those investments.
The notion of "investment" needs examination. All activity occurs in the present. People often get cause and effect backwards when they speak of investment, and say things like "I'm doing __X__ because I will get __Y__ in the future". Ir reality, it's "I'm doing __X__ because I now entertain the dream that I will get __Y__ in the future". With some qualification and a few exceptions (infrastructure that involves large economies of scale or significant "free rider" issues), governments have no better investment strategy than to let markets explore opportunities and to tax the activity that results, at a rate that maintains incentives.
"Profit" is an artifact of the tax code, the difference between total costs revenues and total costs. An organization which has no line in its balance sheet for "profit" must attribute all revenues to costs.
(Malcolm): "2. People who reached the age of eligibility one day after the act passed collected benefits. They invested nothing. The fiction of "accounts" is a fraud that designers built in because Americans at the time opposed the dole. In response to a suit against Old Age and Survivors' Insurance (the official name) by a group who opposed insurance on religious grounds (betting against God's will), a court later held that OASI was not "insurance" as claimed but a tax."
2. Those people are dead, so it doesn't really matter.
You mean, if a ponzi scheme lasts long enough, it isn't a ponzi scheme?
3. It's fine to look at it as a social safety net (since you can get money from it without putting any in). That's certainly a better way to examine it, imho. That makes it even less of a Ponzi scheme.
We agree, here (except for the "even less" part).

(Malcolm): "Experts disagree, here."
Appeal to authority rejected.
Fine, if Drachasor wants to use private definitions of words. This discussion concers the use of words. Readers may follow the links and assess. Application of the term "ponzi scheme" depends on matters of fact that "experts" or "authority" know better than the average human. Most of what anyone knows about Chemistry or Astronomy or History is simply acceptance of authority.
Heck, you are arguing two conflicting opinions here. One that it isn't an investment, and the other that it is and it's a Ponzi scheme. So color me unimpressed with your stance here...
Social Security (it's a proper name) was sold as an individual annuity, since much of the public was opposed to the dole. I believe the public at large loses with a State role in the pension or charity industries, in direct proportion to the size of that role. Given a State role, I prefer a clean policy and a clean description.
...which seems to be "attack social security."
As opposed to anti-social security or social insecurity or anti-social insecurity, perhaps? I have no problem with social security (cultivate friends, I say). I'm opposed to Social Security.
 
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Are you arguing that there are no key differences between a Ponzi scheme and Social Security? Some of your own statements highlight key differences between Social Security and a Ponzi scheme.

The Securities and Exchange Commission defines a Ponzi scheme as "an investment fraud that involves the payment of purported returns to existing investors from funds contributed by new investors." There are some significant differences between Social Security and a Ponzi scheme:

  • A Ponzi scheme is an illegal investment scheme. Social Security isn't an investment (as you yourself pointed out). It's a tax-subsidized government programs that provides a safety net for retirees.
  • In the case of Social Security, no one is being misled -- Social Security is what it claims to be: a program under which current workers are taxed on their incomes to pay benefits, with no promises of huge returns.
  • A Ponzi scheme is unsustainable because the number of potential investors is eventually exhausted. Ponzi schemes ultimately go bust and everyone (except possibly early investors) loses their money. Yes, Social Security faces a long-term funding issue, but one that most experts say is manageable (the Social Security actuary says that Social Security’s shortfall is 0.7 percent of the gross domestic product over the next 75 years). To overcome the shortfall, the government could change benefit formulas (for example, paying out more money to those who need it most) or increase taxes to keep the system from failing.
  • Morally, Social Security is the opposite of a Ponzi scheme -- it's a safety net in the form of a social insurance policy that pays modest benefits to retirees, the disabled and the survivors of deceased workers. A Ponzi scheme makes a windfall for a few people at the expense of everyone else who invests in it.

If you're saying that Social Security is a Ponzi scheme, the vast majority of experts would disagree as there are substantial and key differences between the two. If you're just saying that one can compare the two, then one can of course compare lots of things to a Ponzi scheme.

-Bri
 
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Are you arguing that there are no key differences between a Ponzi scheme and Social Security? Some of your own statements highlight key differences between Social Security and a Ponzi scheme.
The key difference between Social Security and other ponzi schemes is that the State compels participation in Social Security. At least Madoff's investors volunteered.
The Securities and Exchange Commission defines a Ponzi scheme as "an investment fraud that involves the payment of purported returns to existing investors from funds contributed by new investors." There are some significant differences between Social Security and a Ponzi scheme:

A Ponzi scheme is an illegal investment scheme. Social Security isn't an investment (as you yourself pointed out). It's a tax-subsidized government programs that provides a safety net for retirees.
Some SS defenders disagree. From this thread:...
(Drachasor): "SS works by paying current beneficiaries and then investing the rest of the incoming money."
In the case of Social Security, no one is being misled -- Social Security is what it claims to be: a program under which current workers are taxed on their incomes to pay benefits, with no promises of huge returns.
Few are misled anymore. The scheme is falling apart.
A Ponzi scheme is unsustainable because the number of potential investors is eventually exhausted. Ponzi schemes ultimately go bust and everyone (except possibly early investors) loses their money. Yes, Social Security faces a long-term funding issue, but one that most experts say is manageable (the Social Security actuary says that Social Security’s shortfall is 0.7 percent of the gross domestic product over the next 75 years). To overcome the shortfall, the government could change benefit formulas (for example, paying out more money to those who need it most) or increase taxes to keep the system from failing.
We will disagree about the government's ability to increase its predation on the private sector without limit.
Morally, Social Security is the opposite of a Ponzi scheme -- it's a safety net in the form of a social insurance policy that pays modest benefits to retirees, the disabled and the survivors of deceased workers. A Ponzi scheme makes a windfall for a few people at the expense of everyone else who invests in it.
The difference is, my contribution to the State is not "investment" but a tax. Whether any government program (any human activity at all, really) is "moral" depends on both effects and intentions. Since advocates for Social Security had to misrepresent the program to achieve its passage, they start with a pretty large "intentions" deficit.
If you're saying that Social Security is a Ponzi scheme, the vast majority of experts would disagree as there are substantial and key differences between the two. If you're just saying that one can compare the two, then one can of course compare lots of things to a Ponzi scheme.-Bri
I'm not so sure. I've already cited several who call SS a ponzi scheme. In any case, "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet". SS is a State-operated charity with age and disability-related criteria, funded through a tax on wages.
 
If my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle, but she doesn't so she isn't. I cannot believe that Perry's nonsensical remark, one that even he has walked back, is still being defended.
 
If my aunty had balls she'd be my uncle, but she doesn't so she isn't. I cannot believe that Perry's nonsensical remark, one that even he has walked back, is still being defended.

Defending Rick is secondary. Attacking SS, for the ideologues, is more important. It's 1964 all over again. I can recall a Goldwater supporter explaining much of the above to me in detail. Apparently it's going to be bankrupt by 1995. :p
 
.....Social Security.....It's a tax-subsidized government programs that provides a safety net for retirees....

It provides WHAT?

Please answer in a fashion that could be laid down contractually. I pay in X, I get WHAT? I'm not concerned about vague generalities like your use of the warm and fuzzy phrase "safety net".

Any investment firm could answer this question. No double talk or weasel words in your answer please. We've had enough of that here.

If you can't answer my question, then I'd like SS changed to where in the law as written my question can be answered. If you support the current law but can't answer my question, you are supporting a fraud on the public.
 
It provides WHAT?

Please answer in a fashion that could be laid down contractually. I pay in X, I get WHAT? I'm not concerned about vague generalities like your use of the warm and fuzzy phrase "safety net".

Any investment firm could answer this question. No double talk or weasel words in your answer please. We've had enough of that here.

If you can't answer my question, then I'd like SS changed to where in the law as written my question can be answered. If you support the current law but can't answer my question, you are supporting a fraud on the public.
So you're saying SS doesn't give you specified return? Ponzi schemes are sold on the basis that you will get something back, usually defined. So in that regard SS and Ponzi schemes are entirely different.

Make yer bleedin' mind up, hey?
 
In any case, "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet". SS is a State-operated charity with age and disability-related criteria, funded through a tax on wages.

You don't see the irony in those two statements? A Ponzi scheme is clearly NOT a state-operated charity with age and disability-related criteria, funded through a tax on wages.

-Bri
 
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There are some very real differences between SS and a Ponzi scheme, yet some very real similarities and the main one is the fact that the structure is the same, "Ponzi schemes and Social Security have similar structures (in particular, a sustainability problem when the number of new people paying in is declining)" - Wikipedia

How is "sustainability" a structural similarity? And the "sustainability" problem Social Security will have to deal with is relatively easily remedied and is not an inherent problem (merely one of changing demographics). Capitalism in general requires continued growth, (look at how bad things get when growth is even near zero), so is it a "Ponzi scheme" too because it has "a sustainability problem"?

Really, the only way it's true that Social Security is like a Ponzi Scheme is that nearly everything is trivial (and ignores the most important characteristics of a Ponzi Scheme)--in the same way that nearly everything is like a Ponzi Scheme.

Social Security is no more a Ponzi scheme than income taxation is theft. It's over-the-top inflammatory rhetoric that is largely devoid of any significance.

And I agree with whoever brought this up that standing by this absurd statement will hurt Perry's campaign.
 
Please answer in a fashion that could be laid down contractually. I pay in X, I get WHAT? I'm not concerned about vague generalities like your use of the warm and fuzzy phrase "safety net".

Don't you get statements that tell you what you've paid for Social Security and how much you'll get if you retire at various ages? I get a statement like that once a year.

-Bri
 

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