Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

Status
Not open for further replies.
Actually the charges were for all those things Grinder listed plus Amanda was charged with slandering Patrick which is why she gets the extra year.

This case about nothing as Frank puts it has been very effective so far. If you think about it...Patrick was beaten by police...he says so in his own words in the Daily Mail, where he also claims that they called him a dirty black, threatened him with a long prison sentence questioned him without a lawyer, called him a liar, no food , no water...And yet somehow he turns over to the dark side and files a case against Amanda. Could it be that after keeping his bar closed for 4 months or longer that Mignini called him in for a little chat to discuss his "actual" interrogation?

Nothing. Prove it. Burned up hard drives...nothing ...prove it. Beatings...forgot to record it...prove it. Sloppy DNA handling...too low, too low, too low...aha we have the result ...you watched us do it...prove us wrong. Contamination? Prove it.

How very easy it is to be a prosecutor in Italy. You just get to say things and then turn it over to the defense to prove you wrong. Then you appeal and you get to say more and even crazier things and again toss it over to the defense...no who, what, where, how or when...NOTHING! The answer is nothing!
The mitigation for a life sentence is....???Nothing. And they say it with a straight face...that’s the scary part.
 
js202 said:
I doubt Rudy will stay healthy very long, pursuant to his release.
Click to expand...
-

I hope not js202,

I don't wish any harm to anyone in case I am wrong in my appraisals, but maybe he'll be safe if he goes live with one of the people who thinks he is a misunderstood individual who is in no way capable of a violent thought never mind this murder,

Dave
 
RandyN said:
Actually the charges were for all those things Grinder listed plus Amanda was charged with slandering Patrick which is why she gets the extra year.
Click to expand...
-

Are you sure Randy?

Not saying you are wrong, but I thought (here I go thinking again) the extra year was because of the knife, but hey I could be wrong (I frequently find that I am) and you are right,

Dave

ETA: couldn't find anything about the knife (in a quick look) except the following (so it looks like you and grinder are right, my apologies):

FROM: http://abcnews.go.com/WN/AmandaKnox...ilty-murder-meredith-kercher/story?id=9241592
"The Seattle woman, who has spent the last two years in an Italian jail cell, was also convicted of a series of additional charges including sexual assault, conspiracy, faking a burglary and slandering a man she falsely implicated in the crime."
 
Last edited:
As in the United States, sentencing in an Italian murder trial depends on various aggravating and mitigating factors. In the trial of Knox and Sollecito, the panel weighed the cruelty of their crime against the fact that neither had a criminal record. In the view of the empanelled judges and laypersons, these balanced out so each received the minimum sentence of 21 years on the murder charge. The other charges—sexual assault, staging a break-in to mislead investigators, transporting the murder weapon, and theft of Kercher's money and cell phone—accounted for another four years. And then Knox got an extra year tacked on for falsely accusing an innocent man of the crime. (She'd fingered the owner of the bar she worked at in the early days of the investigation, although she later claimed the accusation was made under duress.)
 
AmyStrange said:
-

just a guess (and in no way to be considered accurate in any sense of the word), but maybe he did have an appointment with Meredith to buy some pot from the guy's stash downstairs, came on to Meredith, she rejected him, and this set him off in a blind rage of temporary insanity. Some criminal profilers have postulated (not saying I agree, but it is interesting that many of the women Bundy is accused of killing generally had the same style and hair color) that a women's rejection of him (Elizabeth Kendall, a pseudonym used by the author of "the Phantom Prince" which was an account of her life with Bundy) is what started Bundy off on his killing spree. As an aside, Bundy was also a petty criminal.

By the way, I have read somewhere that Meredith sustained 57 stab wounds. Is this true?

Dave
Click to expand...

No it is not true. The 40 some odd wounds include mostly bruises and not stab wounds...I don’t have the exact number...there are some small puncture type wounds on her hands and the neck wounds which number from 3 to 6 ...I’m going from memory here so don’t quote me...definitely no 57 stab wounds though.
 
Grinder said:
As in the United States, sentencing in an Italian murder trial depends on various aggravating and mitigating factors. In the trial of Knox and Sollecito, the panel weighed the cruelty of their crime against the fact that neither had a criminal record. In the view of the empanelled judges and laypersons, these balanced out so each received the minimum sentence of 21 years on the murder charge. The other charges—sexual assault, staging a break-in to mislead investigators, transporting the murder weapon, and theft of Kercher's money and cell phone—accounted for another four years. And then Knox got an extra year tacked on for falsely accusing an innocent man of the crime. (She'd fingered the owner of the bar she worked at in the early days of the investigation, although she later claimed the accusation was made under duress.)
Click to expand...
-

Thank you Grinder,

but I have read news stories that said they were convicted of all charges except the theft:

FROM: http://articles.cnn.com/2009-12-04/...ct-amanda-knox-raffaele-sollecito?_s=PM:CRIME
"Both were convicted on all charges except theft and together must pay 5 million euros ($7.4 million) to the victim's family. In addition, Knox must pay 40,000 euros ($60,000) to a man whom she falsely accused of the killing."

What is the link to your quote (or did you write this yourself?),

Dave
 
RandyN said:
No it is not true. The 40 some odd wounds include mostly bruises and not stab wounds...I don’t have the exact number...there are some small puncture type wounds on her hands and the neck wounds which number from 3 to 6 ...I’m going from memory here so don’t quote me...definitely no 57 stab wounds though.
Click to expand...
-

Thank you for the correction Randy
 
RandyN said:
Actually the charges were for all those things Grinder listed plus Amanda was charged with slandering Patrick which is why she gets the extra year.

This case about nothing as Frank puts it has been very effective so far. If you think about it...Patrick was beaten by police...he says so in his own words in the Daily Mail, where he also claims that they called him a dirty black, threatened him with a long prison sentence questioned him without a lawyer, called him a liar, no food , no water...And yet somehow he turns over to the dark side and files a case against Amanda. Could it be that after keeping his bar closed for 4 months or longer that Mignini called him in for a little chat to discuss his "actual" interrogation?

Nothing. Prove it. Burned up hard drives...nothing ...prove it. Beatings...forgot to record it...prove it. Sloppy DNA handling...too low, too low, too low...aha we have the result ...you watched us do it...prove us wrong. Contamination? Prove it.

How very easy it is to be a prosecutor in Italy. You just get to say things and then turn it over to the defense to prove you wrong. Then you appeal and you get to say more and even crazier things and again toss it over to the defense...no who, what, where, how or when...NOTHING! The answer is nothing!
The mitigation for a life sentence is....???Nothing. And they say it with a straight face...that’s the scary part.
Click to expand...

but like Katody mentioned a fleeting several pages back....this is all to be expected during the prosecutions last hooray...

IMO,

really dont see Hellman accepting the fiction without proof.

Actions speak louder than Words:

Hellmans actions in choosing from the "mountain of papers" was the knife, the bra clasp and Curatolo. The top three pieces even Mignnini held as the foundation of the case.

Hellman wont be reading DingDong's hate forum to determine if C&V are credible or not.

Prosecutors all yelling GUILTY....all backing each other....all saying GREAT JOB!

Hellman, Zanetti and the six Judges were expecting the barrage of the same old 2007 satanic cult drug orgy blahblahblah... so 2007 and out dated.

The SURPRISE:
I said it before I think the big surprise was the SC request, which Hellman denied.

Nothings Changed:
Hellman is focused on the knife, bra clasp, and Curatolo. If they fail the prosecutions case should fail.

the other stuff-
Hellman didn't ask about Amanda's sex list, or the suspicious interrogation, or anything else for that matter.
Hellman allowed the prisoners to be paraded, he allowed Comodi her time to insult the appointed experts...

but the focus will return to the DNA of the knife, bra clasp and the only eye witness Curatolo....

Doe the prosecution have a case without the Knife, Bra Clasp and Curatolo?

Thats what I'm thinking anyway....
 
Last edited:
AmyStrange said:
-

Thank you for the correction Randy
Click to expand...
Hi AmyStrange and others,
I'm the other Randy, no not the mod from .org, but the surfer from L.A.

With Amanda and Raffaele fighting hard for their freedom from what many of us feel is an unjust conviction, why don't we try and do a little time frame test?

I know that you live with a female housemate who has discussed this case in depth with you, Dave.

Why don't you take a few minutes of your time tonight, and using a watch, try to re-enact the coming home, assault and murder for us? Or heck, for that matter, why doesn't anybody else who lives with a member of the opposite sex do this? It might help give us a better idea of what might have gone down. Just don't use a wooden or plastic spoon instead of a huuuge kitchen knife...

RW
 
Last edited:
One has to wonder why Hellman wouldn't ask for more independent analysis on the bath mat, the luminol footprints, or other evidence that directly links the kids to the crime, if he doesn't have reasonable doubt by now.

The above examples are certainly pieces that reasonable people have argued about. If independent experts came back and said the evidence above either goes against Rudy or just can't be put against the kids, then Hellman would have to acquit.
 
js202 said:
Thanks for this info, Dougm. Given that I have not read The Fatal Gift, could you give us a few more details about Guede's apparent complex?
Click to expand...

OK. Note that this is definitely speculation. The book does not say specifically that Rudy has anything specific, but the author, Nina Burleigh, spent more time on the background of each of the key players involved in the case than other authors, vs. spending a lot of time on the court case.

Some of the facts in the book about Rudy are:

* He had an extremely difficult early childhood. He was separated from his mother at a very early age, and brought to Italy from The Ivory Coast by his father. Although his mother was still alive and had another family in the IC, he never saw her again after a very young age
* His father would go to work and leave Rudy alone in the house to take care of himself at a very young age (like 5), and sometimes not come home. He would also lock Rudy in the bathroom or other small space and leave
* There was mention that Rudy told someone (can't recall who) about being whipped and having a stick smashed over his head when he disobeyed
* Rudy's dad was often not around, and went back to the IC a time or two without him. Rudy was taken in by some kind Italian women who would make sure he got to school and had food to eat
* At one point, as a teenager, Rudy was basically "adopted" by this wealthy family, and for a year or two had a great life, from the standpoint of having whatever he wanted materially. But for some reason, he threw that all away, acting out in ways that ended up in that family giving up on him.
* After high school years, Rudy had one friend in particular that he liked to hang out with, and Rudy would ask to come over to this guy's apartment to stay overnight, because Rudy did not like to stay alone at his own place. But this guy had to ask Rudy not to stay over anymore, because Rudy would wake up in the middle of the night and act out strange scenes, like he pretended he was teaching a school class, and was lecturing the students on some subject, except that in reality, Rudy was asleep. This guy and another friend of his got creeped out by Rudy doing this, and they asked him not to come over any more.
* There is also mention of some other burglaries, including one where a woman who was very close to Rudy had a bunch of her personal stuff stolen, and it was never solved. Of course, there is no evidence Rudy was involved, but the MO was similar to later burglaries he committed and one of the things that was missing, a woman's gold watch, is similar to one Rudy was caught with at that nursery school in Milan. Except the cops never checked the watch, so it may or may not be the same one.

Now, none of this indicates why someone would commit a murder, but it does indicate evidence of a person who might have some mental or emotional problems that have never been properly diagnosed. To most in Perugia, he probably appeared to be just a regular guy, and maybe he was, before the murder, but it seems that, if this info is true, Rudy may have had some very real emotional issues. Issues that might lead someone to act very irrationally when triggered by something. He might not deal well with rejection -- but who knows.

None of the above is proof of anything, not compared to his DNA and prints in the murder room.
 
Last edited:
RWVBWL said:
Hi AmyStrange and others,
I'm the other Randy, no not the mod from .org, but the surfer from L.A.

With Amanda and Raffaele fighting hard for their freedom from what many of us feel is an unjust conviction, why don't we try and do a little time frame test?

I know that you live with a female housemate who has discussed this case in depth with you, Dave.

Why don't you take a few minutes of your time tonight, and using a watch, try to re-enact the coming home, assault and murder for us? Or heck, for that matter, why doesn't anybody else who lives with a member of the opposite sex do this? It might help give us a better idea of what might have gone down. Just don't use a wooden or plastic spoon instead of a huuuge kitchen knife...

RW
Click to expand...
-

Hi (the other) Randy,

I made the mistake of watching Amelie (which sorry to report took over my soul) before trying to re-enact the crime and (oops) forgot to NOT use a knife and... well, I have to go buy some bleach... be right back.

Sorry for the black humor, but after reading Frank's (PerugiaShock) post, really (when all is said and done) what else is there besides crying uncontrollably over the injustice and horror of Meredith's murder and the injustice afforded Amanda and Raffaele in the subsequent rush to judgement.

Also, we came up with an average time of a little over 15 minutes, but this can change drastically depending on what Rudy did after Meredith finally died and how long it took for him to find Meredith's keys etc. etc.,

Dave
 
Iternal Affairs

Is there an Italian form of Internal Affairs that investigates crooked cops?

I was at the beach today where I do shark research, trying to capture proof of Great White Sharks jumping outta the water naturally, without bait or chum.

1 of the surfer gals told me a story that another gal had told her that she recently saw a breaching shark, very rare this year. The gal who saw it is a cop, but when she comes down to the beach, she's always outta uniform. I've seen her around, but never really talked to her, except to say hi.

We started conversing about what she saw the other day, and of course, since I have cop friends that surf, I asked her who she worked for. She is a Sergeant in the Los Angels Police Department. After spending many years on the streets, Shari now works in Internal Affairs Group here on the Westside of L.A.

She made mention that while most cops are great, the ones who go bad are ridiculous, some have robbed people that they've pulled over, or had sex with prostitutes, etc. I made mention of the Rampart Dvision Scandal, which I have mentoned here on JREF before, were a crooked cop was planting evidence on suspects. Eventually it was found out and some cops lost their jobs and many convictions were overturned. My new shark breaching witness and surfer friend obviously knew of the names involved in that scandal that tainted the LAPD, but which then helped bring forth some needed reforms.

This case we discuss is definately full of strange twists.
And I wonder if some hanky panky has gone down, for it seems like at least 1 cop has lied. Might there be evidence tampering also, such as when the huuuge kitchen knife was unpackaged and then repacked? I wonder...

So I ask,
is there an impartial Internal Affairs in Italy that investigates cops?

RW
 
Last edited:
Grinder said:
One has to wonder why Hellman wouldn't ask for more independent analysis on the bath mat, the luminol footprints, or other evidence that directly links the kids to the crime, if he doesn't have reasonable doubt by now.

The above examples are certainly pieces that reasonable people have argued about. If independent experts came back and said the evidence above either goes against Rudy or just can't be put against the kids, then Hellman would have to acquit.
Click to expand...
-

Good questions Grinder,

but maybe he's already convinced these aren't evidence against the kids, because they weren't absolutes like Curatolo's "testimony" or how Dr S made the knife and bra clasp evidence out to be and that's why he authorized their retest (or review) and hear Curatolo's testimony again.

The same can be said about the shop owner's testimony and the Time of death and mixed DNA. There would be no reason to test the knife and bra clasp DNA if he thought all that other evidence (all together or separately) was viable and proved they were guilty.

Or maybe the DNA retest/ review and Curatolo's testimony was the litmus test for reasonable doubt in his learned opinion.

In my opinion anyway,

Dave
 
Last edited:
AmyStrange said:
-

Good questions Grinder,

but maybe he's already convinced these aren't evidence against the kids, because they weren't absolutes like Curatolo's testimony did and Dr S made the knife and bra clasp out to be and that's why he authorized their retest.

The same can be said about shop owner's testimony and the Time of death and mixed DNA. There would be no reason to test the knife and bra clasp DNA if he thought all that other evidence (all together) proved they were guilty.

In my opinion anyway,

Dave
Click to expand...

That's what I was trying to say. If they now come back with a guilty verdict and didn't bother to examine the other "key" evidence, it would seem to open the court to more criticism.
 
Hi Randy
First of all I think it is very cool that you study great whites. I have been fascinated by them as long as I can remember.
Secondly, I have wondered all along why there has been no internal investigation in this joke of a case. I really hope Hellman has seen through this madness and AK and RS are acquitted. I'm sweating it out though after the results of the first trial.
Take care and keep up the great posts.
 
Grinder said:
That's what I was trying to say. If they now come back with a guilty verdict and didn't bother to examine the other "key" evidence, it would seem to open the court to more criticism.
Click to expand...

I suspect part of the reason that the trial poked along, with only occasional hearings, was that the "other" evidence has been being reviewed all along. It might have been reviewed even before the start of the appeal trial, so that Hellmann could decide what other evidence needed to be reviewed and/or added.

It certainly feels like there would have been no need to have the C&V review if the rest of the evidence pointed to guilt by itself. The only reason I don't endorse this view 100% is that it is rational, and the first court was so irrational that I have a level of distrust. But I have seen nothing from Hellmann so far that indicates he is following that same path.
 
Grinder said:
That's what I was trying to say. If they now come back with a guilty verdict and didn't bother to examine the other "key" evidence, it would seem to open the court to more criticism.
Click to expand...
-

Grinder,

do you mean the retest, review, and rehear were all for show and the results will be ignored by Hellmann and this appellate court? Not saying that you are wrong, but that just doesn't make sense to me.

But like I have also said a couple times before, I'm not holding my breath waiting for them to be acquitted, because I just remember what happened in the first trial instance,

Dave
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom