Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Grinder said:
I have never revered her and never will. She has no experience as a reporter for this sort of story and did a crumby job from day one. The one and only reason she has had a forum for her writing is that she was nearby and didn't cost the DB much.
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That's not entirely true. On the morning of the first day she was in Perugia she took a fine photo of the open front door of the cottage while it was supposed to be under seal and had it posted to her editor's personal photo blog for all to see.

After that I agree.
 
Magister said:
LJ
I made my comment about Costagliola for the very reason that his behaviour was in marked contrast to his previous position of remaining "virtually mute" throughout the appeal trial.
Prior to handing over to Mignini today he asked the court to consider the Kercher family's ordeal before accusing AK and RS of the murder.
There have been several musings here that Costagliola was trying to avoid going down with the ship.
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LondonJohn said:
But if Colstagliola had not even stood up during the prosecution's closing argument (which is by far the most crucial part of any trial, and where each side actually presents its argument to the court), it would have been utterly astonishing, since he's nominally the lead prosecutor. So I argue that nothing whatsoever can be read into the fact that Costagliola actually spoke.

But it think the far more salient point is that Costagliola only presented a preamble, and appears to have abdicated the real bulk of the prosecution closing argument to other prosecutors. In normal circumstances, the lead prosecutor would handle the bulk of the closing argument, perhaps handing over to deputy prosecutors if there was very specific (e.g. scientific) argument to present, with which another prosecutor had much more knowledge/experience.

So I still think that there is every indication that Costagliola is distancing himself from the prosecution argument to the greatest extent possible, given that he is the nominal lead prosecutor. I think you would struggle to find another criminal trial where the lead prosecutor simply stood up at the start of closing arguments to make an anodyne (and by all accounts very uninspiring) speech which didn't really even attempt to argue for guilt based on any evidence, and then hand everything over to other prosecutors.
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I think you're being argumentative, LJ, both in this post and the previous one to Magister. You're saying essentially the same thing Magister is saying, but you're making it sound like you have contempt for his observations.

Need some coffee after your night out? ;)
 
"From the beginning Amanda admitted she brought Rudy Guede to the place for Kercher. "

Is the above quote even half true?
 
Keeper said:
Can someone explain the degree to which a Judge can direct the Jury in Italian courts?
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My understanding is that the judge participates in the closed-door discussions with the lay judges, and that there is little disagreement with the judge's opinions.
 
pilot padron said:
Interesting that Barbie Nadeau's latest Daily Beast is much closer to what smk is saying than to the "they will be free at any hour" that was so rampant here after the C&V was leaked.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...-snag-with-prosecutor-s-closing-argument.html

This paragraph IMHO sums up theme of Article".

Like so many twists and turns in the four years of this dreadful murder case, today’s events made a ripple in what has until now seemed to be a positive appeal for Knox. The appellate process has led many to believe that she was falsely convicted based on a damning report by independent forensic experts condemning the police and laboratories that processed the crime scene. Those truly obsessed with the case won’t change their opinions, but casual followers were quick to comment that perhaps the conviction was right all along.

Her closing sentence was particularly poignant to me
"No matter what happens, her (Knox's) fate will most certainly be much better than Kercher’s." .

Interesting also that Barbie is alternately revered and/or ridiculed here.
She has followed this case more closely than any other Italian speaking writer.
Whenever she writes something favoring innocence she is treated here like Moses delivering Tablets of Stone.
However if she dare express a thought here that possibly Knox and Sollecito were indeed very involved in the death of Meredith Kercher, a stream of vile invectives and vicious vitriol is directed at her, both as a person and as a writer.
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I disagree. I’ve always thought Nadeau was a useless hack. As much trash comes out of her mind as it does for Mignini. I feel the same about Vogt. Another hack.

As for following this case closely as an Italian speaker...I again disagree. Frank speaks far better Italian and has followed this case much closer than Nadope.

Is it a profound statement that AK is better off than the dead girl or simply an idiotic tabloid type statement?

But anyway...so how do think the prosecution did today in summing up its case against the innocents? I didn’t hear much about the who , what, where , or when...I did hear about pink bunnies, condoms and "ALL" the other proofs of murder. Sad actually.

I hope this evil man is jailed longer than "the poor black man"!
 
Barbie tried to switch to the other side when she seen this ship sinking a few weeks ago. I think she reads the post and realized that so many of us believe she has played such a big role in framing these two that it's too late to jump! She probably figures since Mignini can change his story every other week why can't she. It's too late Barbie you've done sold your soul !
 
I didn't see a big surprise today ? If Frank getting thrown in jail was it ,big deal.Doesn't hurt the case (sorry for Frank though). In fact it has become a good sign anymore. When ever they try to mess with Frank we know were winning .. Right ?

Will somebody please take the sex toy from Mignini !! We all expected the prosecution to pull a rabbit out of the hat , but that's not exactly what we had in mind. It played no part in this murder whatsoever and has no place in the court room. Do they not see how foolish this makes the court look to the rest of the world? Kind of surprised Hellman let that go. Desperate times call for desperate measures I guess!
 
GreyFox said:
I didn't see a big surprise today ? If Frank getting thrown in jail was it ,big deal.Doesn't hurt the case (sorry for Frank though). In fact it has become a good sign anymore. When ever they try to mess with Frank we know were winning .. Right ?

Will somebody please take the sex toy from Mignini !! We all expected the prosecution to pull a rabbit out of the hat , but that's not exactly what we had in mind. It played no part in this murder whatsoever and has no place in the court room. Do they not see how foolish this makes the court look to the rest of the world? Kind of surprised Hellman let that go. Desperate times call for desperate measures I guess!
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Clearly Italian sensibilities are different. I am pretty sure that this kind of statement by a prosecutor during a trial in the US would result in a significant sanction. A lot of what Magnini has done would not be allowed in a US court. Bringing up the result of a graphologist reading of Amanda Knox's hand writing was so off the wall that it was hard to imagine that Italian courts could be that different than US courts. First evidence from a graphologist would not be admissible and second bringing up information not placed into evidence in ones closing would be a big no no in the US I think.

But the whole fantasy land crime reconstruction would certainly not have been allowed without a foundation in a US court. There was something similar that took place in the OJ Simpson murder trial when the prosecution put an expert on that droned on for two days about details of the murder that he couldn't possibly know. There are differences between this and what seems to have gone in Italy though. It seems like Magnini is just allowed to drone on about whatever his fantasies are about what happened during the murder but he isn't even required to bother to put up a bogus expert as he would have been in the US.

So how does all this play in Italy? Does releasing irrelevant salacious details about Knox sit well with the average Italian? Is some of this stuff resonating with people that are horrified that Amanda wasn't married and she was having sex? Does any of this matter to Magnini. Is he just out hurt Knox with every tool in his arsenal regardless of public opinion or ethics out of some sort of vengeance?

This trial seems to be revealing some serious issues with the Italian justice system. I wonder if some Italians are hoping that the excesses of this witch hunt will lead to some corrections. Certainly somebody might take a good look at the idea that a prosecutor that is under indictment for harassing witnesses should still be allowed to remain a prosecutor.
 
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Caper said:
I'm fighting the good fight over here...

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...snag-with-prosecutor-s-closing-argument.html#

and someone mentioned it in their comments.

Reading the uninformed comments on this case is disgusting, The lies people continue to tell about the two is unbelievable.
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They do get very ugly on the DB. A good comment from there was noted by Steve Graham of the Graham Lawyer Blog, though:

Lastly, Mignini made reference Rudy Guede and argued: “Don’t let the poor black guy be the only one to pay the price for this murder.” The best response to this was by EdLancey in the comment section of Nadeau’s article. He wrote: “Have you ever heard a more disgusting comment, the poor girl’s room was covered in his [Guede's] bloody footprints and semen, and this lunatic tries to play the race card.”
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Graham makes a great point about Nadeau:

Not to be out done by Costagliola, Mignini himself made some pretty outlandish statements today, comparing the Amanda Knox defense claims to Nazi propaganda. Mignini argued that the defense committed: “…slander, slander, slander in the hope that it some of it will stick. It’s worthy of the noted propaganda minister of Nazi Germany in the 1930s.”

Who was impressed by all this nonsense? Pretty much just Barbie Nadeau, who headlined her article as follows: “Knox Appeal Hits a Snag – Since her appeal began, Amanda Knox has appeared to be sailing toward an acquittal—but the prosecution’s powerful closing argument today could alter her fate once again.” Is she kidding? Apparently in the mind of Barbie Nadeau, the jurors said to themselves: “Hmmmm…. maybe we shouldn’t acquit. Mignini DID have a pretty good point about our war-time allies the Nazis.”
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LondonJohn said:
But if Colstagliola had not even stood up during the prosecution's closing argument (which is by far the most crucial part of any trial, and where each side actually presents its argument to the court), it would have been utterly astonishing, since he's nominally the lead prosecutor. So I argue that nothing whatsoever can be read into the fact that Costagliola actually spoke.

But it think the far more salient point is that Costagliola only presented a preamble, and appears to have abdicated the real bulk of the prosecution closing argument to other prosecutors. In normal circumstances, the lead prosecutor would handle the bulk of the closing argument, perhaps handing over to deputy prosecutors if there was very specific (e.g. scientific) argument to present, with which another prosecutor had much more knowledge/experience.

So I still think that there is every indication that Costagliola is distancing himself from the prosecution argument to the greatest extent possible, given that he is the nominal lead prosecutor. I think you would struggle to find another criminal trial where the lead prosecutor simply stood up at the start of closing arguments to make an anodyne (and by all accounts very uninspiring) speech which didn't really even attempt to argue for guilt based on any evidence, and then hand everything over to other prosecutors.
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Have you read Frank's latest?
http://perugiashock.com/

It does not sound like Costagliola is distancing himself as far as possible from
the prosecution's argument.
Hardly an anodyne speech.
Why has he previously kept such a low profile?
If ,as was speculated here, he had become convinced during the appeal trial that there is reasonable doubt then he should have stepped down.....
with all the negative consequences that action would have entailed for the prosecution's case.
Someone remarked that he was in line for promotion to judge and did not want his career derailed.
The fact that he let Mignini hold the floor for 5 hours yesterday is indeed surprising.
Yet this trial has been highly unusual in other ways.
Why was Mignini,already under indictment,allowed to appear in the appeal trial and play such a prominent part?
Why was Biondi, Stefanoni's boss, sitting at the prosecutors table? A gross conflict of interest.
 
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Diocletus said:
So, somebody sent an "anonymous" letter saying that the scientific police violated standards? And they call this person "deep throat"?

Deep throat might want to read the C&V report.

On the other hand, it would be interesting to see whether this letter contains any detail about the scientific police screw ups, lies and decepits.
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If there is such a letter it could be significant if it contains information that can be confirmed later.

The prosecution might think twice about making claims now that would result in perjury charges later on.
 
I have a line for Frank's latest post at Perugia Shock:
Why didn't Cheech kill Chong?
:p
 
BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau Twitter
Comodi says the blood on the sweater was #meredithkercher and #rudyguede in #amandaknox appeal. Trying to downplay forensic flubs.
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So what, exactly, is she saying? That on the sweater there was Meredith's blood and Guede's DNA/blood? Or what?

If that's correct, then we've got yet another proof of Guede's presence in the room and still not a speck of Amanda and Raffaele.
 
BLNadeau Barbie Latza Nadeau
Comodi giving examples of italian cases when dna was not "all there is" to convict. #amandaknox

Yes, Comodi, but what about this case?
 
The scary thing about any justice system is that most people think in absolutes, so someone is either guilty or not guilty. Its not possible to prove that Knox is guilty beyond reasonable doubt and its disturbing that a Western country can find her so.
 
Paninaro said:
Well, Nadeau should try spending four years in jail for a crime she didn't commit herself before writing that kind of nonsense. Yes, Knox could have been murdered by "the poor black guy Guede" instead of Kercher, but to suggest that Knox therefore should be thankful for four year behind bars instead of being killed is a bit too much to stomach.
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Exactly true. If the positions of the 2 girls had been reversed, and Meredith had come home on Nov 2 to find Amanda with her throat cut, then we would very likely now be discussing Meredith's appeal against her murder conviction.
 
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