Merged Does CERN prove Einstein wrong?

Anders Lindman said:
The scientists at CERN have looked for alternative explanations for three years. That makes the finding scientifically solid. They have most likely indeed found particles traveling faster than the speed of light.
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No, they have not ruled out error and they say so in their report, like that thing you haven't read.
 
Anders Lindman said:
There seems to be different opinions about whether SR can deal with having a frame of reference for a photon. So maybe nobody has a real clue about how SR really is defined.
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Well, in that difference of opinion, there's you on one side, and everyone else on the other. So I don't think your conclusion is really justified.
 
Anders Lindman said:
When CERN has shown that Einstein's theory likely is false?
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So, here's a question for you:

Is CERN part of "the conspiracy" or not?

If not, then you should accept the statements by CERN that confirm its endorsement relativity, and well as the many, many CERN experiments that verify it.

If so, then you don't actually have any evidence of any readings anomalous from relativity.

So, answer the question -- are the reported results of CERN experiments reliable, or not?
 
Instead of photons, let's look at ordinary mass particles.

In the first example two particles are sent in opposite directions in a laboratory. The velocity of each particle is 0.6c. According to SR the relative velocity between them is 1c when the frame of reference is one of the particles. Then in the next experiment two particles with a velocity of 0.7c each are sent in opposite directions. According to SR the relative velocity between these particles is also 1c when the frame of reference is one of the particles.

I don't believe that. Especially not when space can be considered an absolute frame because of the vacuum energy in it.
 
Anders Lindman said:
Not likely.
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Okay. CERN has produced tens of thousands of results that involve relativistic effects. Since we know CERN isn't part of "the conspiracy", there is a body of data that you need to explain. If not relativity, how do you explain it?

Take your time evaluating the full body of CERN data (generated by tens of thousands of scientists over half a century) before answering.

... or perhaps just accept that you don't yet have the education to meaningfully address relativity, and go do some reading.
 
Anders Lindman said:
Instead of photons, let's look at ordinary mass particles.

In the first example two particles are sent in opposite directions in a laboratory. The velocity of each particle is 0.6c. According to SR the relative velocity between them is 1c when the frame of reference is one of the particles.
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No. Read the Wikipedia article. From the frame of reference of either particle, the other is moving at .88c, not 1c.


Then in the next experiment two particles with a velocity of 0.7c each are sent in opposite directions. According to SR the relative velocity between these particles is also 1c when the frame of reference is one of the particles.
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No. Read the Wikipedia article. From the frame of reference of either particle, the other is moving at .94c, not 1c.

I don't believe that.
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Again, time dilation of particles is an easy result to show experimentally by means of a particle trap experiment. My belief in it is based on evidence; your disbelief is not.

Especially not when space can be considered an absolute frame because of the vacuum energy in it.
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That's interesting. Why do you believe there's such a thing as vacuum energy? Is it because you did experiments yourself, or because you believe someone else who explained it to you?
I would bet that your source for believing in vacuum energy, also believes in special relativity.
 
Just simplify it further:

While at rest, the light coming out of my headlights on my car are going the speed of light. When going 55MPH, the light is going the speed of light + 55 MPH.

EINSTEIN WAS WRONG!
 
AvalonXQ said:
Okay. CERN has produced tens of thousands of results that involve relativistic effects. Since we know CERN isn't part of "the conspiracy", there is a body of data that you need to explain. If not relativity, how do you explain it?

Take your time evaluating the full body of CERN data (generated by tens of thousands of scientists over half a century) before answering.

... or perhaps just accept that you don't yet have the education to meaningfully address relativity, and go do some reading.
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I think Einstein's relativity theories are false. So faster than light particles then becomes possible. That's what I believe the CERN data shows.
 
AvalonXQ said:
No. Read the Wikipedia article. From the frame of reference of either particle, the other is moving at .88c, not 1c.




No. Read the Wikipedia article. From the frame of reference of either particle, the other is moving at .94c, not 1c.



Again, time dilation of particles is an easy result to show experimentally by means of a particle trap experiment. My belief in it is based on evidence; your disbelief is not.



That's interesting. Why do you believe there's such a thing as vacuum energy? Is it because you did experiments yourself, or because you believe someone else who explained it to you?
I would bet that your source for believing in vacuum energy, also believes in special relativity.
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Oops. Embarrassing. :o I posted the equation myself earlier. My mistake. For two particles at 0.6c:

(0.6c + 0.6c) / (1 + (0.6c)^2/c^2) = 0.88c.

Ok, but I believe the actual velocity is 1.2c.
 
Anders Lindman said:
I think Einstein's relativity theories are false. So faster than light particles then becomes possible. That's what I believe the CERN data shows.
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Unfortunetly, there seems to be a disconnect between reality and what you believe.
 
SumDood said:
Just simplify it further:

While at rest, the light coming out of my headlights on my car are going the speed of light. When going 55MPH, the light is going the speed of light + 55 MPH.

EINSTEIN WAS WRONG!
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Hmm... Yeah! I think that's correct, when Earth is the frame of reference.
 
Anders Lindman said:
I think Einstein's relativity theories are false. So faster than light particles then becomes possible. That's what I believe the CERN data shows.
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That's not what the scientists who gathered the data at CERN believe the CERN data shows, nor have you given us any reason to share your belief that your interpretation of the data is the better one -- or any reason for your belief other than that you don't understand Einstein's theory.

Which is fine, but really belongs on the CT forum rather than here.
 
aggle-rithm said:
Why do you believe the results from CERN? Do you believe EVERYTHING the authorities tell you?
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Because I said that Einstein's theories were wrong before CERN made this announcement. So it confirms my earlier statements. The conspiracy is to protect the hoax theory of relativity, not to disprove it as CERN is doing now.
 
Anders Lindman said:
Because I said that Einstein's theories were wrong before CERN made this announcement. So it confirms my earlier statements.
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Right. You don't understand Einstein's theories, nor do you understand CERN's data -- you just agree with it because you (wrongly) believe that it proves you right.

You should definitely head over to CT and explain to us all exactly how the grand conspiracy to protect relativity has fabricated all of these experiments over the years.
 
AvalonXQ said:
That's not what the scientists who gathered the data at CERN believe the CERN data shows, nor have you given us any reason to share your belief that your interpretation of the data is the better one -- or any reason for your belief other than that you don't understand Einstein's theory.

Which is fine, but really belongs on the CT forum rather than here.
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But my basic claim is not a conspiracy theory, that the relative velocity between two photons traveling in opposite directions is two times the speed of light instead of one time the speed of light as Einstein's special relativity says. Calculating the relative velocity with the frame of reference at one of the photons gives a result of 1c. That shows how Einstein's special relativity is false.
 
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