Merged Electric Sun Theory (Split from: CME's, active regions and high energy flares)

[Michael Mozina]

Ian, are you going out of your way to be vague and noncommittal?

Let's put it another way. Imagine you just got into an elevator with NASA director Charles Bolden. He turns to you and says: "Astrophysics is in trouble. All of this dark-energy whatnot isn't really coming together and we need to shake it up. I'm looking to fund promising-but-overlooked ideas that might get us out of this hole. I hear you're involved with some sort of cosmoplasma electroverse community---maybe they're on to something. Tell me what looks worth funding in your business. Name two or three people who might be onto something big. Point me to a recent paper that will give me an idea of what they'd do with a $2M 3-year grant."

Ready, set, GO.

That's easy. I'd begin where Birkeland left off in his lab. He got empirical results, not just mathematical models that fall apart in the lab. I'd start by recreating his physical laboratory experiments only I'd use cameras instead of sticking my nose up to the chamber walls and I'd modernize the equipment.

I'd also fund any solar satellite mission that was designed to measure "currents" inside the solar system.

 

[Michael Mozina]

I'm suggesting that you've made claims that aren't, at times, supported by the papers in question.
The whole problem regarding discharges, is your inability to describe what you mean without resorting to equivocation.

Dungey specifically associated "electrical discharges" with "reconnection' events over 50 years ago. I don't know how much more SPECIFIC a guy could possibly be! It's not my fault you immediately all went into pure denial of the fact that "discharges happen" in plasmas!

 

[Tubbythin]

Dungey specifically associated "electrical discharges" with "reconnection' events over 50 years ago. I don't know how much more SPECIFIC a guy could possibly be! It's not my fault you immediately all went into pure denial of the fact that "discharges happen" in plasmas!

And yet you repeatedly referred to lightning too! Did Dungey? Or were you equivocating two different ideas of electrical discharge?

 

[Michael Mozina]

And yet you repeatedly referred to lightning too! Did Dungey? Or were you equivocating two different ideas of electrical discharge?

You're doing it again. Instead of just noting that yes, electrical discharges as Paratt defined them, do in fact occur in plasmas, you are instead TRYING to create controversy where none actually exists! Electrical discharges can occur through solids, liquids, gasses *AND* plasmas.

 

[Tubbythin]

You're doing it again. Instead of just noting that yes, electrical discharges as Paratt defined them, do in fact occur in plasmas, you are instead TRYING to create controversy where none actually exists! Electrical discharges can occur through solids, liquids, gasses *AND* plasmas.

Do you know what equivocation means?

 

[temporalillusion]

Do you know what equivocation means?

When two people have the same job?

 

[Michael Mozina]

Do you know what equivocation means?

Do you know what evasion means?

Not a single one of you can show me one single physical experiment on Earth where "magnetic reconnection" generated any of the things I mentioned on that short list, not one. Electrical discharges can and have produced every single one of them right here on Earth.

If you could make it happen with "reconnection", I absolutely, positively guarantee you that it will begin with ELECTRICAL CURRENT because all of the so called "experiments" on "reconnection' begin and end with 'current'.

 

[Tubbythin]

Do you know what evasion means?

Yeah. I know that you are evdaing the fact that you have been using Dungey's definition of electrical discharge and equating it to lightning.

Not a single one of you can show me one single physical experiment on Earth where "magnetic reconnection" generated any of the things I mentioned on that short list, not one. Electrical discharges can and have produced every single one of them right here on Earth.

What kind of electrical discharges Michael? Dungey's kind or the kind we associate with lightning?

 

[Michael Mozina]

Yeah. I know that you are evdaing the fact that you have been using Dungey's definition of electrical discharge and equating it to lightning.

No, I'm talking about SOLAR theory, and specifically SOLAR FLARES that are caused by "electrical discharges". You're the ones all hung up on terrestrial lightning.

What kind of electrical discharges Michael? Dungey's kind or the kind we associate with lightning?

Round and round we go.......

The problem is that none of you want to associate "reconnection" events to "electrical discharges". Too bad. Dungey already did it. Get over it. Move on. Accept that "discharges happen" in plasmas too.

 

[Tubbythin]

No, I'm talking about SOLAR theory, and specifically SOLAR FLARES that are caused by "electrical discharges". You're the ones all hung up on terrestrial lightning.

So you've never previously equated lightning and Dungey's definition of discharge?

Round and round we go.......

The problem is that none of you want to associate "reconnection" events to "electrical discharges". Too bad. Dungey already did it. Get over it. Move on. Accept that "discharges happen" in plasmas too.

The problem was that you wouldn't come up with a meaningful definition of electrical discharge. And indeed, round and round we went.

 

[GeeMack]

Yeah. I know that you are evdaing the fact that you have been using Dungey's definition of electrical discharge and equating it to lightning.


What kind of electrical discharges Michael? Dungey's kind or the kind we associate with lightning?

Indeed, so far there hasn't been any sort of cogent distinction explained here. The claim seems to be that coronal loops and CMEs allegedly are or are caused by electrical discharges analogous to lightning here on Earth. A direct comparison was made, in fact, just a few posts up...

Electrical discharges are KNOWN to generate the following OBSERVED features of solar flares:

Heats plasmas to millions of degrees
Can continuously heat plasma to millions of degrees over hours
Generates ratio waves
Generates x-rays
generates gamma rays in terrestrial discharges on Earth
pinches free neutrons from plasma and generates neutron capture signatures in plasma.

[Bolding mine.] Since lightning would be impossible on the Sun because of the nature of the solar atmosphere, it is reasonable to ask for further explanation of what constitutes the sort of electrical discharge that allegedly heats the Sun's surface to millions of degrees. It also seems that continuing to make a comparison to lightning is only confusing the issue since that sort of electrical discharge can't happen on the Sun.

 

[Michael Mozina]

So you've never previously equated lightning and Dungey's definition of discharge?


The problem was that you wouldn't come up with a meaningful definition of electrical discharge. And indeed, round and round we went.

I did come up with a published definition of an electrical discharge in a plasma, from a scientist that works at Los Alamos. It's not my fault you can't get over the concept that "discharges happen' in *EVERY* type of material, including but not limited to plasma.

The fundamental problem for you is this IMO:

The moment you folks finally admit that currents are flowing and 'electrical discharges' are occurring in the solar atmosphere, the whole concept of 'magnetic reconnection' becomes irrelevant and unnecessary. The 'simpler' way to describe the event is to simply call it what it is, specifically it's an "electrical discharge event". That's a problem for you folks. You can't handle the truth because it hurts too much. Too much of your plasma "pseudoscience" comes crashing down like a house of cards, so around and around we go, where the denial-go-round ends, nobody knows.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Indeed, so far there hasn't been any sort of cogent distinction explained here. The claim seems to be that coronal loops and CMEs allegedly are or are caused by electrical discharges analogous to lightning here on Earth. A direct comparison was made, in fact, just a few posts up...


[Bolding mine.] Since lightning would be impossible on the Sun because of the nature of the solar atmosphere, it is reasonable to ask for further explanation of what constitutes the sort of electrical discharge that allegedly heats the Sun's surface to millions of degrees. It also seems that continuing to make a comparison to lightning is only confusing the issue since that sort of electrical discharge can't happen on the Sun.

Alfven, Carlqvist, Dungey, as well as Mann and Onel already did that for you. Did you care to comment further on their explanations?

 

[Tubbythin]

I did come up with a published definition of an electrical discharge in a plasma, from a scientist that works at Los Alamos. It's not my fault you can't get over the concept that "discharges happen' in *EVERY* type of material, including but not limited to plasma.

That depends on your definition of discharge. As has been stated repeatedly. For example, an electrical discharge caused by the breakdown of a dielectric medium cannot happen in a plasma. Do you accept this? Yes or no?

 

[Michael Mozina]

That depends on your definition of discharge. As has been stated repeatedly. For example, an electrical discharge caused by the breakdown of a dielectric medium cannot happen in a plasma. Do you accept this? Yes or no?

Do you accept that electrical discharges occur in plasmas?

 

[GeeMack]

That depends on your definition of discharge. As has been stated repeatedly. For example, an electrical discharge caused by the breakdown of a dielectric medium cannot happen in a plasma. Do you accept this? Yes or no?

Since a lightning-like electrical discharge cannot occur in the conductive plasma of the Sun's atmosphere, that seems like a reasonable yes/no question. Once everyone understands that such an electrical discharge is not and cannot cause CMEs, coronal loops, or heating of the solar plasma to millions of degrees, the analogies to lightning can be put aside.

 

[Reality Check]

MM: Citiations to the papers that show 1600A images with plasma pinches

No, it proposes plasma pinches and 'electrical discharges' in plasmas as have been observed and written about since the days of Dungey! We observe these plasma pinches lighting up the solar atmosphere every single day! These days the 1600A images show "discharges" occurring on a daily basis.

No - you assert that there are plasma pinches on the Sun. You see 'bunnies in the clouds' in the 1600A images.
I personally would not be surprised if they do occur though.



And one more time for the simple minded:

• The usual definition of 'electrical discharges' means that they canot occur in plasmas.
• Dungey's 'electrical discharges' are high current densities.

No. "Electrical current" is a good candidate to explain coronal loop heating. Plasmas are excellent, but not "perfect" conductors. Alfven described them as "circuits" and based on the 1600A images, he was certainly correct that they connect *UNDER* the photosphere.

No, "Electrical current" is a bad candidate to explain coronal loop heating. That is why there seem to be no sceintific papers using electric currents to explain coronal heating.

You still have the delusion that a circuit model describes an actual circuit.
There are no giant wires on the Sun.
There are no giant resistors on the Sun.
There are no giant inductors on the Sun.

Electrical discharges are KNOWN to generate the following OBSERVED features of solar flares:

Magnetic reconnection is KNOWN to generate the following OBSERVED features of solar flares:

• Heats plasmas to millions of degrees
• Can continuously heat plasma to millions of degrees over hours
• Generates ratio waves
• Generates x-rays
• generates gamma rays in terrestrial discharges on Earth
• pinches free neutrons from plasma and generates neutron capture signatures in plasma.

And most importantly: Magnetic reconnection is observed to happen in solar flares! See Structure and dynamics of magnetic reconnection in a solar flare, etc.

 

[Michael Mozina]

Since a lightning-like electrical discharge cannot occur in the conductive plasma of the Sun's atmosphere.

That is a false statement and a false belief you hold. The discharge can ONLY happen through a conductive medium. Shall I round up that copper tubing image for you again that was pinched during the discharge process? The discharge process is not hampered by the conductivity aspect, in fact the discharge can't happen through anything other than a conductive medium.

 

[Reality Check]

You're doing it again. Instead of just noting that yes, electrical discharges as Paratt defined them, do in fact occur in plasmas, you are instead TRYING to create controversy where none actually exists! Electrical discharges can occur through solids, liquids, gasses *AND* plasmas.

You are still confused, MM.
The electrical discharges that happen in solids, liquids and gases involve the break down of the dielectric property of the solid, liquid or gas. By defintion that cannot happen in a plasma.

The 'electric discharge' that is mentioned in decades old papers (especially by Dungey) is not the electrical discharges that happen in solids, liquids and gases. Dungey uses the term to refer to high current densities caused by magnetic reconnection.

One more time: Different uses of the term 'electrical discharge' with different meanings !
This is a really simple concept MM. You should have got it by now.

From 8th December 2010:

You did and you are wrong:
Where is your scientific evidence for electrical discharges on the Sun?
...quote from a 1958 conference...

Note the second sentence in the presentation mentions an accelerating layer. These do not exist in electrical discharges. He is talking about the acceleration of charges by the magnetic fields around a neutral point. He calls this an electrical discharge. That is a bit sloppy even for a conference presentation.

(but he also does use the same term in his paper).

And 11th February 2011:

OMG. He used the term "electrical discharge" MM. He specifically claims they (as he defines them in the context of his paper) *CAN* occur in plasmas and says they may be involved in solar flare events, nothing to do with my quoting the standard definition of electrical discharge in which discharges cannot occur in conductors! You're in blatant, hard core denial of scientific fact and elementary comprehension!

• Dungey is using a defintion that is specific to his 50 year old paper.
• Most scientists (especially today) use a standard definition which means that electrical discharges cannot happen in plasmas.

Dungey's and Peratt's definition of discharge are different.

 

[Reality Check]

That is a false statement and a false belief you hold. The discharge can ONLY happen through a conductive medium. Shall I round up that copper tubing image for you again that was pinched during the discharge process? The discharge process is not hampered by the conductivity aspect, in fact the discharge can't happen through anything other than a conductive medium.

You really cannot learn anything, MM: That coppoer tube was struck by lighnting. There was no electrical discharge through it. The electrrical discharge had already happened.

You are now confusing currents and electrical discharges!
Currents happen in conductive medium. For example you can have currents in plasma.

Electrical discharges happen when a dielectric medium breaks down allowing the sudden creation of a current through the medium.