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Merged Electric Sun Theory (Split from: CME's, active regions and high energy flares)

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I think the discussions have degraded to an extent that they are no longer constructive, so I'm going to call it a day. I would suggest that the thread is closed.

As and when I have questions that I want to investigate, I will ask them in a separate thread. And I may well stick my nose into other threads like everyone else.
 
Remember the point of the discussion---narrowing down (at your request) what "electric sun" theory refers to in order to figure out whether it is pseudoscience or not.

I thought you promoted science, rather than resorting to sarcasm and guilty by association. I haven't asked you for details of your Ph.Ds in cosmology, and plasma astrophysics.

The point is: Juergen's "work" is completely wrong. The low quality of the source makes it unsurprising that it's wrong. Author is a random engineer not trained in astrophysics: check (standard crackpot profile). Author is a big fan of a well-known crackpot: check. Theory never passed muster with a referee or editor of any sort: check. Therefore no one is surprised that such a paper might be wrong---and indeed, on checking, this one is wrong.

I did not say it was wrong because the author is retired, etc. It's wrong because practically every sentence I read in it is wrong.

I was asked to provide some sources, not to provide sources which I stand by, and will defend with my hat.

Nonetheless, in terms of the question "is the electric sun pseudoscience", you provided three examples of papers which I'd call factually wrong. Add in a bunch of enthusiasts who "support" these papers without knowing/checking/caring whether they're wrong, and you're 99.9% of the way towards agreeing with the thesis. Yes, the most obvious definitions of "electric sun theory" are pseudoscience.
 
Science doesn't test vague concepts. It tests hypotheses. Are there specific hypotheses that we should recognize as testable, scientific components of plasma cosmology?

(I have no idea what you think the capitalization means.)
I'll provide some material on PC later, using sources that would seem to be acceptable to advocates/proponents of EU/PC ideas.

Ah, yes, the extremely valuable electric-sun ideas that a random retired civil engineer left behind which were posthumously published in his own Velikovskyist journal. This work is already falsified, it assumes that the Sun has a huge DC voltage, which you agree is wrong.

Why list it? Science is allowed to discriminate against wrong ideas. When you ask someone "what are the big questions in nuclear theory these days", they don't start with Time Cube and the plum-pudding model. They start with the stuff that's not complete crap.



Yes, the two more idiots who think the Sun is powered externally by a giant electric current that isn't there, flowing down a voltage that isn't there. Whether it's science or pseudoscience, it's wrong. Why be coy, Ian? You're allowed to say it: "These authors are totally wrong."



And here we go with the Mozina problem. You've been maintaining a plasma-cosmology web page for how long, Ian? You're an expert, of sorts, on the plasma-cosmology subculture and the people and things that happen in it? But when someone asks you, in your capacity as a representative of that subculture, to clarify the question of what are the beliefs and interests relevant to understanding it, you do a "cursory search" and report whatever pops up? That's not helpful.

This is a mainstream astrophysics paper. It's a (mainstream) hypothesis about how (mainstream) magnetic induction might be affecting a particular white dwarf binary system. It bears no relationship whatsoever to the Scott, Thornhill, Juergens, etc. hypotheses that the Sun---our own Sun---is not powered by fusion. (White dwarfs are never powered by fusion, anyway; they just radiate away their residual heat. Binaries may have accretion-powered hot spots.) As we've been saying on this board for years: mainstream astronomy knows about plasma physics and Maxwell's Equations and uses them appropriately. What makes you plant the "electric sun" flag on this one, as opposed to (say) any random solar-physics paper that mentions magnetic fields?

Or is the "electric sun" theory, then, "the set of theories that come up in a Google Scholar search for 'star AND electr* "?
This TPOD ("The Electric Glow of the Sun") refers to "electrical theorists", and "electric theorists"*:
Today, the electrical theorists Wallace Thornhill and Donald Scott urge a critical comparison of the fusion model and the electrical model. Given what we now know about the Sun, which model meets the tests of unity, coherence, simplicity, and predictability? Why did so many discoveries surprise investigators and even contradict the expectations of the fusion model? Is there any fundamental feature of the Sun that contradicts the glow discharge hypothesis?
The electrical theorists see the Sun as a perfect example of this characteristic of glow discharges—a radical contrast to the expected dissipation of energy from the core outward in the fusion model of the Sun.
According to the electric theorists, a weak electric field, focused on the Sun, better explains the acceleration of the charged particles of the solar wind.
A close read of material on the Thunderblots website leads to the conclusion that "electric(al) theorists" also include David Talbott, Ralph Juergens, Bruce, and (possibly) Birkeland; Alfven and Peratt? not so clear.

Ergo, within this sect fan club subculture, the only Electric Sun theories are those by these "theorists". Where, I hear you asking, have these theories been published? Well, there's an IEEE paper (or two), a book (or two), and several webpages (in addition to the Juergens and Bruce material already cited in this thread).

You can ask questions about the extent to which the material in these publications matches the criteria you'd normally apply to an astrophysical theory (or model); as far as I know, none of it meets the "quantitative" criterion at all. Further, these electric(al) theorists are quite open about this (the ones still alive); they too clearly acknowledge that none of what's published - on this topic - is quantitative.

So why do they consider their ideas science? scientific theories?? Because they have, apparently, a radically different view of what constitutes science than you do (or, I might add, almost all the active participants in this thread).

To the extent that the body of ideas collectively known as "Electric Universe" can be said to have commonalities, with respect to various parts of contemporary physics, a recent event may be something of an eye-opener: Natural Philosophy Alliance 18th Annual Conference. I assume that you are familiar with the, um, mission of the NPA?

* the article is unsigned; however it does say this, at the bottom:
EXECUTIVE EDITORS: David Talbott, Wallace Thornhill
MANAGING EDITOR: Amy Acheson
CONTRIBUTING EDITORS: Mel Acheson, Michael Armstrong, Dwardu Cardona,
Ev Cochrane, C.J. Ransom, Don Scott, Rens van der Sluijs, Ian Tresman
WEBMASTER: Michael Armstrong
 
ben m said:
This work is already falsified, it assumes that the Sun has a huge DC voltage, which you agree is wrong. Why list it?
I was asked to provide some sources, not to provide sources which I stand by, and will defend with my hat.
Is it appropriate, then, to ask you what your role is, as TPOD "CONTRIBUTING EDITOR"? As a member of "our team"?

The thunderblots forum contains the following text, under its "rules and guidelines of our forum":
All posts to the scientific parts of the forum should be confined to properly constructed scientific arguments either supporting or challenging published Electric Universe theory.
I looked, but could not find any post, by you, that challenged "published Electric Universe theory"; did I miss some? I'm quite interested, in light of what you've written in posts here, in this JREF thread.
 
Is it appropriate, then, to ask you what your role is, as TPOD "CONTRIBUTING EDITOR"? As a member of "our team"?

I occasionally contribute TPODs (non-scientific, opinion pieces)

I looked, but could not find any post, by you, that challenged "published Electric Universe theory"; did I miss some? I'm quite interested, in light of what you've written in posts here, in this JREF thread.

It's quite possibly that I haven't, the forum covers a wide range of subjects.
 
Ian, are you going out of your way to be vague and noncommittal?

Let's put it another way. Imagine you just got into an elevator with NASA director Charles Bolden. He turns to you and says: "Astrophysics is in trouble. All of this dark-energy whatnot isn't really coming together and we need to shake it up. I'm looking to fund promising-but-overlooked ideas that might get us out of this hole. I hear you're involved with some sort of cosmoplasma electroverse community---maybe they're on to something. Tell me what looks worth funding in your business. Name two or three people who might be onto something big. Point me to a recent paper that will give me an idea of what they'd do with a $2M 3-year grant."

You're in an elevator. You've been asked for a pitch. You don't have time to correct him on the terminology. You don't have time to complain about Galileo, Alfven, dark energy, reconnection. You have just enough time to give Bolden a precis of the most-scientific, best-developed topics that you know of---the things that you think make whatever you're doing worth doing.

You have to go straight for the best you've got. No crackpots, no dead people; current work, not old stuff; positive developments, not truisms or vague objections to mainstream theory.

"My field, _____, is studying how space plasmas could be effecting _____, and we think that this works better than ______ and could be a paradigm shift. One line of inquiry you should fund is Dr. _______, who wrote this paper _______ on a model of _________ that's got great potential but needs funding to finish ______. Another big triumph of ________ is the idea that ______ explains ______; you'll be impressed by Dr. ______ who wrote ______ and who may be poised to _________. Here's my card if you want to follow up."

Ready, set, GO.
 
I was asked to provide some sources, not peer-reviewed sources. And as I mentioned to Ben_m, I did not provide sources as facts to be defended. My other sources included a website and some book. In fact there were no peer reviewed pieces.
The fact remains that your sources are abysmal.
Citing a journal abut mythology makes the Electric Sun theory a myth, i.e. a fantasy.

There is no dispute that there are no peer-reviewed material on the Electric Sun.
Then by definition it is not science. At best it is an idea. But since is is a collection of at least 2 mutually exclusive ideas that turns it into ... pseudoscience!

Once again - thanks for confirming that the Electric Sun theory is pseudoscience.

We already knew that it was invalid (Dealing with Creationism in Astronomy blog has several excellent auricles debunking Scott and Thornhill).

As well as trying to understand that mythology is not science, you should learn how to judge the quality of websites. Thunderbolts is dismally incompetent to say the least.
See Anoher lie from Thornhill on the Thunderbolts web site
 
We do seem to be unfocussed in our discussions (and I do mean we). I'm sure his work has been discussed elsewhere on JREF before, but I can also suggest that just as would be required of myself, that where statements are made, that citations are provided.
Anthony Peratt's Plasma Model of Galaxy Formation points out several reasons why his theory is obviously wrong, e.g. he has plasma in actual spirals for spiral galaxies but the mass in spiral galaxies is not arranged in a spiral (optical images look like spirals because the arms are bright).
 
I'll provide some material on PC later, using sources that would seem to be acceptable to advocates/proponents of EU/PC ideas.
In November, 2006, Eric Lerner wrote something for Wikipedia (WP), on plasma cosmology. While what he wrote is not the current WP entry, it is regarded by the EU/PC subculture as an extremely good description. You can read a copy on Lerner's own website here, on Wikipedia itself here, and in the JREF Plasma Cosmology - Woo or not thread here. There's also a link to this on iantresman's website.

As has been noted - many times in this section of JREF, and many times in other science-based internet discussion fora - plasma cosmology (PC, per Lerner) is a failure, as a set of scientific theories, models, or hypotheses (both collectively and individually).

As I noted in my earlier post, EU proponents go further than Lerner in terms of rejection of relativity; whereas Lerner's version of PC (and, in this respect, Alfven's too) is limited in its non-acceptance wrt 'scalar expansion' ("Since every part of the universe we observe is evolving, it assumes that the universe itself is evolving as well, though a scalar expansion as predicted from the FRW metric is not accepted as part of this evolution"), electric(al) theorists reject General Relativity completely, and Special Relativity too (though this latter rejection is not always clear).

Not surprisingly, this causes severe problems of internal consistency! For example, Peratt's two 1986 papers on quasars, galaxy formation, structure, and evolution are seen as among the highlights of PC, yet the fact that Peratt's conclusions depend inextricably upon the Hubble redshift-distance relationship is not even acknowledged, much less seen as deeply troubling. :jaw-dropp :eek:

In short, PC is not science, of the astrophysics kind; the reason why EU/PC adherents (iantresman included?) think it is science stem from a radically different view of the nature of science (or at least physics).
 
Ian, are you going out of your way to be vague and noncommittal?

Let's put it another way. Imagine you just got into an elevator with NASA director Charles Bolden. He turns to you and says: "Astrophysics is in trouble. All of this dark-energy whatnot isn't really coming together and we need to shake it up. I'm looking to fund promising-but-overlooked ideas that might get us out of this hole. I hear you're involved with some sort of cosmoplasma electroverse community---maybe they're on to something. Tell me what looks worth funding in your business. Name two or three people who might be onto something big. Point me to a recent paper that will give me an idea of what they'd do with a $2M 3-year grant."

You're in an elevator. You've been asked for a pitch. You don't have time to correct him on the terminology. You don't have time to complain about Galileo, Alfven, dark energy, reconnection. You have just enough time to give Bolden a precis of the most-scientific, best-developed topics that you know of---the things that you think make whatever you're doing worth doing.

You have to go straight for the best you've got. No crackpots, no dead people; current work, not old stuff; positive developments, not truisms or vague objections to mainstream theory.

"My field, _____, is studying how space plasmas could be effecting _____, and we think that this works better than ______ and could be a paradigm shift. One line of inquiry you should fund is Dr. _______, who wrote this paper _______ on a model of _________ that's got great potential but needs funding to finish ______. Another big triumph of ________ is the idea that ______ explains ______; you'll be impressed by Dr. ______ who wrote ______ and who may be poised to _________. Here's my card if you want to follow up."

Ready, set, GO.
A variant of this is to ask an EU/PC proponent what they'd do if they were given essentially unlimited observing time on any, or any combo of, the world's leading facilities - Hubble, Chandra, Herschel, the VLTs, the VLA, ... Alternatively, how they'd analyze data from any of these (or from any publicly available astronomical dataset) to test one EU/PC idea or the other (i.e. assume essentially unlimited computing resources).

Such questions/challenges have been put to members of the fan club many times, both here and in other internet fora. To the best of my knowledge, no concrete answers have ever been given (I'd welcome any counter-examples any reader may have come across).

Yet another, quite vivid, illustration that whatever EU/PC is, it sure ain't science.
 
We do seem to be unfocussed in our discussions (and I do mean we). I'm sure his work has been discussed elsewhere on JREF before, but I can also suggest that just as would be required of myself, that where statements are made, that citations are provided.

Bye Ian, until we meet again.

So the fact that you present things on your web page that you don't know the origins of means what?

Hint Perrat's models do not match the actual data.
 
Anthony Peratt's Plasma Model of Galaxy Formation points out several reasons why his theory is obviously wrong, e.g. he has plasma in actual spirals for spiral galaxies but the mass in spiral galaxies is not arranged in a spiral (optical images look like spirals because the arms are bright).
P.S. iantresman: The Plasma Universe web site which you started has a section on Perattt's computer simulations that are the basis of his model.



I suggest that you remove it since his maps of the distribution of plasma do not match reality (see Anthony Peratt's Plasma Model of Galaxy Formation), e.g.
  • Double lobed radio galaxies are actually eliptical galaxies.
  • Spiral galaxies have stars between their arms. The density between the arms is 10-20% less than the arms.
The fatal mistake of comparing mass distributions from his simulations to optical images invalidates his model.

Can you post a note when you have removed this invalid science from your web site?

ETA - you also need to remove the page on galaxy formation.

ETA2: the predictions page needs Peratt's predictions based on his invalid model removed.
 
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You should also remove the "Alfven predicted Uranus's rings". The paper in question (reprinted as 1978M&P....18..339D) is a 1972 paper containing no plasma physics at all---just a repeat of Roche's 1948 theory, and some guesswork as to whether Jupiter or Uranus sounded like a more likely ring candidate, and the first choice was Uranus.

I repeat, the paper contains no plasma physics whatsoever---it just looks at where the moons are with respect to the Roche limit.

How'd this get filed under "plasma cosmology"? Well, because in 1977---after Uranus's rings had been discovered---Bibhas De reprinted the paper claiming that the positions of the moons (or, rather, the existence of gaps where no moons should exist) can have been predicted from plasma physics considerations, based on Alfven's 1976 theory of the plasma origin of the solar system. However, none of that had anything to do with the "prediction", such as it was, that Uranus has rings. The only physics that went into that prediction was the knowledge of where the moons actually are---a fact accessible to anyone with or without a theory to go with it.

(It's like: Caveman Ogg knows that it's hot in the valley, and cool in the mountains. He says maybe the antelope herd has moved to the mountains. 10000 years later, Sadi Carnot (or someone) uses thermodynamics to understand why it's cool in the mountains. Great! "Successes of thermodynamics: predicts large animal migrations (Ogg, 8000 BC)".)

The worse thing is, Alfven's planet/moon formation theory is utter nonsense, and the claim that he "understands" where there are moons and where there are not is simply false. It's all based on the solar system forming when the planet-less Sun crashed into a dusty plasma cloud, which is flat wrong according to every young-star, exoplanet, protoplanetary-disk observation I can think of.

Ian, do you want to keep calling this a "plasma cosmology" prediction?

ETA: Perhaps a better question is: what made you ever want to call it a plasma cosmology prediction? If you applied your best critical-thinking skills to this claim, and thought it sounded good, I take it as evidence that you don't have good critical thinking skills---or, possibly worse, that you choose not to apply them. To put it another way, if your "elevator pitch" to NASA had included "Plasma Cosmology should be funded to study planetary rings, because it successfully predicted Uranus's rings!" ... well, let's just say Bolden would not choose to waste time on you again.
 
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EU/PC advocates have posted and commented and generally been very visible and vocal, all over the internet.

Yet the same basic questions keep getting asked of them, and the same non-answers are given.

Much anger, disgust, and worse is directed at those who, in the eyes of EU/PC proponents, characterize these ideas as pseudoscience, the work of cranks and crackpots, etc.

Yet no serious defence of these ideas, as science, is ever made! :jaw-dropp

To be sure, many of these folk have, at best, a weak grasp of what science (physics) actually is (and, astonishingly, this extends to the very parts of physics they are so staunch in promoting, namely plasma physics). Yet not all.

What gives? Why is so much energy and effort expended on such an obviously hollow venture?
 
Oops! I read right over (or through, or past) this:
DeiRenDopa said:
Is it appropriate, then, to ask you what your role is, as TPOD "CONTRIBUTING EDITOR"? As a member of "our team"?
I occasionally contribute TPODs (non-scientific, opinion pieces)

I looked, but could not find any post, by you, that challenged "published Electric Universe theory"; did I miss some? I'm quite interested, in light of what you've written in posts here, in this JREF thread.
It's quite possibly that I haven't, the forum covers a wide range of subjects.

Thanks.

If you're still around, reading this thread, I'm curious to know whether you think that any of the astrophysics ideas (hypotheses) which Peratt, Alfven, or Lerner have published, in relevant peer-reviewed journals, still have legs today (among those you cite on your webpage)?

Also, why is the published work of others, applying plasma physics to astrophysical phenomena, absent from your webpage?

Fundamentally, I'm interested in the extent to which you consider internal consistency, and consistency with well-established theories of physics (such as QED and General Relativity) valid, and relevant.
 
I happen to disagree, I think it is a very good reason. The difference between science & pseudoscience is founded on methodology, not on the final result, so when I label Mozina's comments "pseudoscience" I an leveling a criticism against the manner in which he argues his position. Also note that I did not say that Alfven himself was being pseudoscientific (he was just wrong but not pseudoscientific), only that Mozina was.

It's hard to know where to even begin in rebutting all the nonsense that was posted to this thread in my absence, but I suppose I'll start here.

Tim, IMO you DESPERATELY need to 'get over' the idea of arguing against the individual and stick to arguing the topic itself. You're welcome to your opinions about any and all electric sun concepts, but I'm not the topic of this thread!

When people make a scientific argument, they present facts & reasonable interpretations thereof. Mozina does neither of these, but instead appeals to authority ("All he can ever say is "Afven said so", a religious acolyte parroting the ancient script of the demi-god."). Demi-god is Mozina's attitude towards Alfven (and Birkeland as well). He treats the writings of both in exactly the same way that literalists interpret holy scripture: Divine truth that cannot ever be challenged in any way. That is definitely a religious attitude. But in true science we all understand that even the most brilliant people can be wrong, and often are. Witness Einstein's rejection of quantum mechanics. Certainly Einstein was brilliant and certainly he did not engage in pseudoscience. But he certainly was wrong.

Mozina has never once, in all these years, even tried to present anything one might call a "scientific" argument.

I'm just going to stop your tirade right here, right now. Here's a "short list" of just SOME of the links, papers, and materials I have presented in THIS THREAD alone Tim:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1986stpr.rept..409A
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1974ApJ...190..467L/0000467.000.html
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50A11FB385F13738DDDAA0A94DA405B838DF1D3
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1986stpr.rept..409A
http://books.google.com/books?id=Zj...onepage&q=Hannes Alfven Cosmic Plasma&f=false
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1996Ap&SS.242...93P/0000093.000.html
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1958IAUS....6..135D/0000135.000.html
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/themis/auroras/northern_lights.html
http://www.sandia.gov/news-center/news-releases/2006/physics-astron/hottest-z-output.html
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1948MNRAS.108..163G/0000163.000.html
https://springerlink3.metapress.com...dbuehqhatvwttpjxjzpz2&sh=www.springerlink.com
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2007ASTRA...3...29S
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2007ApJ...670..841S
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2002PhyS...65..185F
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2000ApJ...532..616W
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14786440708521050
http://jpsj.ipap.jp/link?JPSJ/33/496/
http://esoads.eso.org/abs/1977RvGSP..15..271A
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/331/6013/55
http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-01-fermi-large-area-telescope-flares.html
http://arxiv.org/abs/0908.0813
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=32448
http://www.catastrophism.com/texts/bruce/era.htm
http://esoads.eso.org/abs/1991SoPh..132..307F
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkeland_current
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0032063379900825
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?1988Ap&SS.144...73C
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1969SoPh....7..377C
http://sites.google.com/site/cosmologyquest/peer-reviewed-papers

Start by focusing on the materials presented Tim, and stop making this personal. It's not personal, is "science". If you can't be bothered to address these materials Tim, at least stop claiming I haven't presented you with a scientific argument, complete with maths.
 
The Electric Sun does not address the Coronal Heating anomaly because it proposes unphysical mechanisms (like lightning) or unobserved phenomena such as pinches in the solar atmosphere.

No, it proposes plasma pinches and 'electrical discharges' in plasmas as have been observed and written about since the days of Dungey! We observe these plasma pinches lighting up the solar atmosphere every single day! These days the 1600A images show "discharges" occurring on a daily basis.

Real science is getting close to an answer, e.g. Alfvénic waves are now a good candidate for coronal heating (Elusive Sun waves come into focus).

No. "Electrical current" is a good candidate to explain coronal loop heating. Plasmas are excellent, but not "perfect" conductors. Alfven described them as "circuits" and based on the 1600A images, he was certainly correct that they connect *UNDER* the photosphere.

Electrical discharges are KNOWN to generate the following OBSERVED features of solar flares:

Heats plasmas to millions of degrees
Can continuously heat plasma to millions of degrees over hours
Generates ratio waves
Generates x-rays
generates gamma rays in terrestrial discharges on Earth
pinches free neutrons from plasma and generates neutron capture signatures in plasma.

Each and every one of these events have been observed in solar flares and each of every one of these high energy signatures is CAUSED by electrical discharges.
 
It's hard to know where to even begin in rebutting all the nonsense that was posted to this thread in my absence, but I suppose I'll start here.

Tim, IMO you DESPERATELY need to 'get over' the idea of arguing against the individual and stick to arguing the topic itself. You're welcome to your opinions about any and all electric sun concepts, but I'm not the topic of this thread!



I'm just going to stop your tirade right here, right now. Here's a "short list" of just SOME of the links, papers, and materials I have presented in THIS THREAD alone Tim:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1986stpr.rept..409A
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1974ApJ...190..467L/0000467.000.html
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50A11FB385F13738DDDAA0A94DA405B838DF1D3
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1986stpr.rept..409A
http://books.google.com/books?id=Zj...onepage&q=Hannes Alfven Cosmic Plasma&f=false
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1996Ap&SS.242...93P/0000093.000.html
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1958IAUS....6..135D/0000135.000.html
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/themis/auroras/northern_lights.html
http://www.sandia.gov/news-center/news-releases/2006/physics-astron/hottest-z-output.html
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/1948MNRAS.108..163G/0000163.000.html
https://springerlink3.metapress.com...dbuehqhatvwttpjxjzpz2&sh=www.springerlink.com
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2007ASTRA...3...29S
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2007ApJ...670..841S
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2002PhyS...65..185F
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2000ApJ...532..616W
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14786440708521050
http://jpsj.ipap.jp/link?JPSJ/33/496/
http://esoads.eso.org/abs/1977RvGSP..15..271A
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/331/6013/55
http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-01-fermi-large-area-telescope-flares.html
http://arxiv.org/abs/0908.0813
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=32448
http://www.catastrophism.com/texts/bruce/era.htm
http://esoads.eso.org/abs/1991SoPh..132..307F
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birkeland_current
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0032063379900825
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?1988Ap&SS.144...73C
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1969SoPh....7..377C
http://sites.google.com/site/cosmologyquest/peer-reviewed-papers

Start by focusing on the materials presented Tim, and stop making this personal. It's not personal, is "science". If you can't be bothered to address these materials Tim, at least stop claiming I haven't presented you with a scientific argument, complete with maths.

How many of these papers have you presented and how many have you given links to and stated conclusions which are not in or supported by the paper?
 
How many of these papers have you presented and how many have you given links to and stated conclusions which are not in or supported by the paper?

If you're making an allegation, it's up to you to be specific. My position on electrical discharges being associated with solar flares has support going all the way back to Dungey, and in fact all the way back to Birkeland himself. It's not like I just "made it up". The fact this crowd can't even accept the fact that "discharges happen" in plasma has been a "show stopper" in terms of making any scientific progress on this topic IMO.
 
If you're making an allegation, it's up to you to be specific. My position on electrical discharges being associated with solar flares has support going all the way back to Dungey, and in fact all the way back to Birkeland himself. It's not like I just "made it up". The fact this crowd can't even accept the fact that "discharges happen" in plasma has been a "show stopper" in terms of making any scientific progress on this topic IMO.

I'm suggesting that you've made claims that aren't, at times, supported by the papers in question.
The whole problem regarding discharges, is your inability to describe what you mean without resorting to equivocation.
 
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