Breaking down telepathy

[Kleonaptra]

Ok, that's too bad. Anyways, I'd like to know who these people are, can you name some, or give us a link?




It would be telepathy between you two, or at least something as amazing. This demonstration alone would change the whole face of science and philosophy forever. You don't seem to realize how amazing ability that would be?*
For one thing, it would make you unbelievably rich, and I'm sure we could find many positive charities that would be thrilled to receive a couple of million dollars per month from you. This would be a great way to make the world much safer, healthier and all-around better place to live in, something that all the yogis and gurus with big claims such as this seem to forget or ignore in their great wisdom...




That's good too, let us know if you need any help with protocols and remember to report back your progress


* This is an interesting point that I come across very often, just a couple of weeks ago I met a person who was sure that some monks can actually levitate, she didn't think it was a big deal at all

Sorry Kuko. I meant to reply to this one earlier too.

How exactly would a telepathic connection between two people change the face of science? I really think that demonstrating that would only cause the scientific population to call us both freaks or mutants, not conclude that we had telepathy. Twins can often demonstrate abilities very like telepathy, such as buying the same car (in model and colour), redocorating their houses the same way and at the same time. I dont see it making millions either - maybe a couple of grand to a tabloid?

I met a lovely lady who had lived in India for some time and was taught kriya yoga by a guru. She too believed some yogis could levitate and we talked about it at length. I think the general conclusion from us on those guys was, anyone who has given up everything (and I mean everything) just to meditate their whole life probably can do anything.

 

[Resume]

I met a lovely lady who had lived in India for some time and was taught kriya yoga by a guru. She too believed some yogis could levitate and we talked about it at length. I think the general conclusion from us on those guys was, anyone who has given up everything (and I mean everything) just to meditate their whole life probably can do anything.

Why would anyone conclude that?

 

[EHocking]

I meant, its not common for a wild bird to be SICK because of worms because of their resistance to them. Birds have worms like cats do.

Cite?

All you have is the assertion that this is true, others have shown this to be incorrect - as I knew when I posted.

What you are doing is repeating an incorrect "fact" in order to bolster your claim that you knew, telepathically, that an injured bird also had worms.

It is called confirmation bias.

Your repeated defence of your incorrect ornithological parisite claims is a different fallacy...

 

[MRC_Hans]

Hey Mate,
The only part of that page I actually took notice of or cared about was Dr John Zimmerman, measuring energy fields with the SQUID in the 1980s. Ive done some rather intense googling, Ive found that info in lots of places, is it true or not?

Why then post a page with a lot of other nonsense?

Is it true? I can't say for sure. There are a lot of woo sites referencing the claim (that Dr. JZ one time measured a magnet field around the hands of Reiki healers), but I have found no non-woo references to it. Interestingly, all the woo sites seem to have the same misspelling of the name of the University: Colerado, instead of Colorado.

There exists a couple of Dr. John Zimmermans, a cardiologist and a neurologist. There is also a Dr. John Zimmerman, chiropractor and acupuncturist, but none of them seem to have any connection to the University of Colorado.

The alleged experiment is to have taken place around 1990 (the year varies from reference to reference). There has been no repetitions, and it seems not to have been published in a peer reviewed journal.

I'd say it is most likely not true, or the experiment was of such poor quality that it was rejected.

Hans

 

[Kleonaptra]

Why then post a page with a lot of other nonsense?

Is it true? I can't say for sure. There are a lot of woo sites referencing the claim (that Dr. JZ one time measured a magnet field around the hands of Reiki healers), but I have found no non-woo references to it. Interestingly, all the woo sites seem to have the same misspelling of the name of the University: Colerado, instead of Colorado.

There exists a couple of Dr. John Zimmermans, a cardiologist and a neurologist. There is also a Dr. John Zimmerman, chiropractor and acupuncturist, but none of them seem to have any connection to the University of Colorado.

The alleged experiment is to have taken place around 1990 (the year varies from reference to reference). There has been no repetitions, and it seems not to have been published in a peer reviewed journal.

I'd say it is most likely not true, or the experiment was of such poor quality that it was rejected.

Hans

I didnt want to get in trouble for cut and pasting a heap of stuff from a webpage. I think its rule 4? I linked before to the same info but nobody read it so I had to find the info on another page. I like this one too.

http://www.esalenctr.org/display/confpage.cfm?confid=8&pageid=69&pgtype=1

I found all that stuff too. Theres too much info in my humble opinion for it to have never happened, but I would very much like to see the experiment done with proper controls.

 

[MRC_Hans]

How exactly would a telepathic connection between two people change the face of science?

Because it would demonstrate the existence of some hitherto undiscovered force, radiation, or whatever.

I really think that demonstrating that would only cause the scientific population to call us both freaks or mutants, not conclude that we had telepathy.

That is just your mistaken prejudice about science and the scientific community. Discovery is the life-blood of the scientific community, it's raison d'etre. If you could actually show that telepathy to exist, scientists would be scrambling to win the honour of discovering the mechanism behind it.

Not to mention secret agencies, businesses, and all the others who would take immense interest.

Twins can often demonstrate abilities very like telepathy, such as buying the same car (in model and colour), redocorating their houses the same way and at the same time.

An uncanny example of just how much our intial programming really governs our lives.

I dont see it making millions either - maybe a couple of grand to a tabloid?

You must be lacking in fantasy, then. How would you fare on the stock market, if you could find out what others were about to buy and sell, before anybody else?

How would you do as a police officer, if you could read suspects minds?

anyone who has given up everything (and I mean everything) just to meditate their whole life probably can do anything.

Or perhaps nothing?

Hans

 

[dafydd]

Cite?

All you have is the assertion that this is true, others have shown this to be incorrect - as I knew when I posted.

What you are doing is repeating an incorrect "fact" in order to bolster your claim that you knew, telepathically, that an injured bird also had worms.

It is called confirmation bias.

Your repeated defence of your incorrect ornithological parisite claims is a different fallacy...

A fallacy? Ignorance.

 

[Jeff Corey]

... Twins can often demonstrate abilities very like telepathy, such as buying the same car (in model and colour), redocorating their houses the same way and at the same time....

No. They don't demonstrate telepathy at al, or anything like it. No one ever has.

 

[PixyMisa]

How exactly would a telepathic connection between two people change the face of science?

Simple: It's impossible. There is no mechanism in the brain - or anywhere else in the body - that could transmit or detect such a signal. And if there were such a signal being transmitted, we could readily detect it with existing equipment, and it would be utterly overwhelmed by devices like radar dishes and MRI scanners.

So if telepathy were real, the mechanism would have to be something entirely new and unknown to physics. That would be a massive breakthrough; its discoverer would win at least two Nobel prizes.

I really think that demonstrating that would only cause the scientific population to call us both freaks or mutants, not conclude that we had telepathy.

Do you get all your understanding of science from comic books and 1950's sci fi flicks?

Twins can often demonstrate abilities very like telepathy, such as buying the same car (in model and colour), redocorating their houses the same way and at the same time. I dont see it making millions either - maybe a couple of grand to a tabloid?

Twins are genetically similar (or identical) and raised together, so them growing up with similar tastes is hardly a surprise.

I met a lovely lady who had lived in India for some time and was taught kriya yoga by a guru. She too believed some yogis could levitate and we talked about it at length.

Lots of people believe lots of things. Doesn't make any of it true.

I think the general conclusion from us on those guys was, anyone who has given up everything (and I mean everything) just to meditate their whole life probably can do anything.

Like bilk gullible tourists of large wads of cash?

 

[Lithrael]

I find that really interesting. Why would it mean throwing out everything we already know? I really believe that natural remedies that are effective are simply intuitive ideas from when people didnt know any better.

"Homeopathy" does not equal "natural remedies." It is indeed standard scientific practice to test out things like folk remedies and see if they are effective and if so why. Homeopathy, on the other hand, is a specific idea with several aspects that appear to be physically impossible. The confusion arises from the fact that 'homeopathic' is now an advertiser's buzzword and is commonly slapped on any old thing at the chemist's shop.

 

[EHocking]

A fallacy? Ignorance.

->Willful?

 

[MRC_Hans]

I didnt want to get in trouble for cut and pasting a heap of stuff from a webpage. I think its rule 4? I linked before to the same info but nobody read it so I had to find the info on another page. I like this one too.

http://www.esalenctr.org/display/confpage.cfm?confid=8&pageid=69&pgtype=1

I found all that stuff too. Theres too much info in my humble opinion for it to have never happened, but I would very much like to see the experiment done with proper controls.

Sorry to disappoint you, but there is no limit to the amount of crap in the world.

About your new link:

Rubik presented a number of attempts that have been made by various researchers to measure the biofield:
1. John Zimmerman used a SQUID machine to measure the magnetic emission of a therapeutic touch practitioner during the act of healing. He measured 7 to 8 hertz emitting from the hands of the practitioner.

Same stuff as many other sites, and as of now unconfirmed.

2. Elmer Green has measured healers in copper lined rooms with surges of up to 100 volts.

Dr. Elmer Green seems to be big on biofeedback (not necessarily woo), but I find no mention of such an experiment.

3. Researchers at the Heart Math Institute have measured greater coherence in the EKG (meaning the electrocardiogram) patterns of those who are meditating on loving-kindness.

What the hell is coherence in EKG? However, meditation is known the have a number of real effects, none of which are even remotely supernatural.

4. At a convention in New York city a few years ago, Rubik herself measured the electrostatic potential of Dr. Yan Xia by using a multimeter measuring the atmospheric potential. While the meter was 50 feet from Dr. Xia, Rubik noted a spurt in the energy up from the baseline of 35 milivolts. At the end of the conference, she measured up to 100 milivolts of energy.

This is *********** ridiculous! Energy is not measured in millivolts, and a multimeter cannot be used to measure atmospheric potential. You can measure various potentials in any room, and they tend to vary wildly. Absolutely nothing can be concluded from the mentioned readings.

In this one paragraph, Rubic fatally damages her own credibility.

5. Using a solid state photon counting device made by Hamamatsu, Eugene Wallace measured biophotons from people’s hands. When they intended to emit more energy, more photons were measured.

There is no such thing as biophotons. - Or if there is, you can't measure them with any known instrument.

6. Hokoba Greenberg Ziberbrau put loving couples in separate Faraday cages. When one partner was given a visual stimulus, the second partner measured an evoked potential, even though the second partner did not have a visual stimulus. Marilyn Schlitz noted that Leon Standish got grant from the National Institutes of Health to do that same study

I found no references to this experiment, except from Rubik.

7. Dan Winter did experiments with trees in which people did loving meditation towards a tree and thereby influenced the local geo-magnetic power spectrum.

There is a Dan Winter publishing a lot of woo and technobabble. To the best of my knowledge, there is no such thing as a geo-magnetic power spectrum.

Kleonaptra, I think you should stop digging this hole.

BTW, I have been wanting to ask you: What does "Kleonaptra" mean?

Hans

 

[Pixel42]

I find that really interesting. Why would it mean throwing out everything we already know?

Homeopathy was invented about 200 years ago by a German guy called Hahnemann. It involves diluting the supposed curative substance to such a degree that the result "medicine" is actually just the liquid it was dissolved in (either water or alcohol) - there literally is not so much as a single molecule of the original substance left in it. This liquid is then usually dropped onto a sugar pill and allowed to evaporate. There is no way of telling a sugar pill which has been so treated from one which hasn't.

Please don't confuse homeopathy with things like traditional herbal remedies, they are very different things.

ETA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

Depending on the dilution, homeopathic remedies may not contain any pharmacologically active molecules,[20] and for such remedies to have pharmacological effect would violate fundamental principles of science.[6][21] Modern homeopaths have proposed that water has a memory that allows homeopathic preparations to work without any of the original substance; however, there are no verified observations nor scientifically plausible physical mechanisms for such a phenomenon.[21][22]

 

[Giza]

So, what do you feel would be the ideal partner for an invisible humanoid unicorn (they are all males, you know)?

Hans

Invisible pink unicorn?

 

[Kleonaptra]

Sorry to disappoint you, but there is no limit to the amount of crap in the world.

About your new link:



Same stuff as many other sites, and as of now unconfirmed.



Dr. Elmer Green seems to be big on biofeedback (not necessarily woo), but I find no mention of such an experiment.



What the hell is coherence in EKG? However, meditation is known the have a number of real effects, none of which are even remotely supernatural.



This is *********** ridiculous! Energy is not measured in millivolts, and a multimeter cannot be used to measure atmospheric potential. You can measure various potentials in any room, and they tend to vary wildly. Absolutely nothing can be concluded from the mentioned readings.

In this one paragraph, Rubic fatally damages her own credibility.



There is no such thing as biophotons. - Or if there is, you can't measure them with any known instrument.



I found no references to this experiment, except from Rubik.



There is a Dan Winter publishing a lot of woo and technobabble. To the best of my knowledge, there is no such thing as a geo-magnetic power spectrum.

Kleonaptra, I think you should stop digging this hole.

BTW, I have been wanting to ask you: What does "Kleonaptra" mean?

Hans

I have to admit a bias against science because for many years medical science failed me. I wasted a lot of time (years) taking advice from doctors and swallowing a lot of ineffective drugs because I had doctor after doctor tell me that what I experienced was 'impossible'. I finally found a good doctor who found I was a rare case with three different conditions affecting the same area. It took her 3 years of investigation and continously sending me back to specialists to find out all these things. Once my pain was explained, effective treatments were found. Nothing showed up in my initial MRIs or CTs so the doctors in the first few years concluded it must be psychological and stopped looking for physical causes. Now Id like to go back to those pompos fools and throw my file in their faces. So yeah, Im angry and I have little faith in what people are sure they know.

Thanks for the above info, but at least I know Im not the only person to think of testing humans with a SQUID. I still dont think its a crazy idea, but I can see everyone else does, Im ok with that.

Years ago I wanted an original user name that had no numbers on the end of it. It seemed they were all taken, so I ripped off a name from one of the characters in a book Im writing, I like to make up original names for my characters even if they arent central to the story. It was only intended to be an impermanent thing, yet 'Kleo' I have remained.

 

[Kleonaptra]

Homeopathy was invented about 200 years ago by a German guy called Hahnemann. It involves diluting the supposed curative substance to such a degree that the result "medicine" is actually just the liquid it was dissolved in (either water or alcohol) - there literally is not so much as a single molecule of the original substance left in it. This liquid is then usually dropped onto a sugar pill and allowed to evaporate. There is no way of telling a sugar pill which has been so treated from one which hasn't.

Please don't confuse homeopathy with things like traditional herbal remedies, they are very different things.

ETA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

Cheers for that. I did indeed mix up homeopathy with herbal medicine. Why would you bother to dilute an effective treatment I wonder?

 

[thaiboxerken]

I've seen this before. A "skeptical" believer that defends belief so much that they show that they aren't skeptical at all.

 

[PixyMisa]

Cheers for that. I did indeed mix up homeopathy with herbal medicine. Why would you bother to dilute an effective treatment I wonder?

The treatments generally aren't effective in the first place. Some of them don't even exist.

The whole thing is magical thinking and confirmation bias, and a complete failure to properly test any of the claimed results.

 

[Pixel42]

I have to admit a bias against science because for many years medical science failed me.

I'm sorry you had such a bad experience, obviously nobody's perfect and rare cases can take time to diagnose and find effective treatments for. I would simply point out that it was someone practising modern medicine who did eventually succeed, and point to the many people who are alive today (I'm sure you know some personally, I know I do) solely because of modern medicine.

Cheers for that. I did indeed mix up homeopathy with herbal medicine. Why would you bother to dilute an effective treatment I wonder?

In the case of homeopathy the undiluted "treatments" are all toxic; they're chosen specifically because they cause the same symptoms that the patient is complaining of.

If you've got time, it's worth reading up on the history of homeopathy. It's a textbook case of how someone with a good education, a better understanding than his contempories of what we now call the scientific method and the best of intentions can still end up inadvertantly fooling himself into believing something that isn't true.

Here's a good article: A close look at Homeopathy

 

[MRC_Hans]

Invisible pink unicorn?

The humanoid ones are not pink.

Hans