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Merged Apollo "hoax" discussion / Lick observatory laser saga

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Evasion noted.

For the third time, Patrick1000, please explain in your own words:
- what that "Julian system" is;
- what "JNow" means in Starry Night or whatever astronomy software you are using
 
Evasion noted.

For the third time, Patrick1000, please explain in your own words:
- what that "Julian system" is;
- what "JNow" means in Starry Night or whatever astronomy software you are using
Probably as the kids were looking at the software, they discovered that it references a start date as a zero point and counts days to get to a particular date. A lot of systems refer to that as the Julian date (the raw days from the datum). Then they noticed the "JULIET" in the transcript and morphed them. Being completely ignorant of the NATO/ICAO alphabet as most folks are (as a CFI, it makes me crazy to constantly hear people say "'N' as in 'Nancy'"), they thought they found some sort of revelation.

"Patrick": you kids did the equivalent of adding two plus two and getting the answer "purple".
 
Boy, that is one interesting map. Why do the characters running up the left hand side of the image read A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,J,K,L......That sure is mean for these these map guys to treat the letter "I" like that. Not even putting her on the moon image. Probably hurt her feelings and then some. Poor girl.

Perhaps it's something to do with the Illuminati?
 
You should go back to replying directly, because I can't for the life of me figure out why they left poor little "I" off your map. Nor can I cut that thing up, chop it, stretch it , futz it any which way to see how J .5/7.7 or J .65/7.54 puts one anywhere near 0.6875 N 23.43 E.

This is not a surprise.
 
From the wiki page in the NATO phonetic alphabet

Usage

A spelling alphabet is used to spell parts of a message containing letters and numbers to avoid confusion, because many letters sound similar, for instance "n" and "m" or "b" and "d"; the potential for confusion increases if static or other interference is present. For instance the message "proceed to map grid DH98" could be transmitted as "proceed to map grid Delta-Hotel-Niner-Ait". Using "Delta" instead of "D" avoids confusion between "BH98" and "DH98". The unusual pronunciation of certain numbers was designed to reduce confusion.

The same system is still used for the top level of the MGRS (Military Grid Reference System) here on good old Terra, still omitting I and O

Military_grid_reference_system

Grid zone designation

The first part of an MGRS coordinate is the grid-zone designation. The 6° wide UTM zones, numbered 1–60, are intersected by latitude bands that are normally 8° high, lettered C–X (omitting I and O). The northmost latitude band, X, is 12° high. The intersection of a UTM zone and a latitude band is (normally) a 6° × 8° polygon called a grid zone,

Really Patrick, you can stop banging your head against this particular wall now.
 
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OH! Now I am catching On!

Perhaps it was silly of me to think they might operate in a Julian system. After all, this is a simulated and not a real space flight. Why go to all of the trouble of pretending to be employing a genuine inertial reference modality/system for understanding position, when one can simply relabel/play with maps? Also, that's no way to plan a critical launch solution, basing it upon a guesstimate from this "crude map". And indeed, Collins called it just that, "a crude map".

So the map referenced by my forum colleagues above does show grid squares of roughly 1.96 X 1.96 minutes of arc per square, .379 square miles per square. And indeed J .65/7.54 looks to be roughly the location of our lost bird. Only problem is, why ever would one want to confuse people and skip the "I" in the grid labeling system? They didn't skip "13".

So maybe Emil Shyster was playing with the maps and numbers in a different way. All the same to me. I don't want to work in a Julian system, hard for me too, and I think I am better than it than the NASA flight boys would have been.

So maybe I was wrong about Shyster's methods. Maybe he is not so smart after all. Maybe just a simple map labeling issue.

Time is ever so much on our side, the side of truth, and it will tell indeed. When that bell finally tolls and is heard for the first time in the vacuum of space itself, won't it be the sweetest sound ever ever ever heard? A chime softly whistling "truth" as it passes to everything , through everything, from everywhere. Beautiful.

PS, the not so very Eagle scouts are still sighting the earth regardless. Neil Armstrong's cross range for the launch is 17 degrees. That must be a reference to Collins' simulated position in relation to the earth.

Roger roger roger that, Over and out.
 
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Only problem is, why ever would one want to confuse people and skip the "I" in the grid labeling system? They didn't skip "13".

Already explained. There goes the poor reading comprehension again.

I don't want to work in a Julian system, hard for me too, and I think I am better than it than the NASA flight boys would have been.

[citation needed]

But congratulations on catching on. Seriously, well done.
 
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Patrick claims to be a man in his 50s, who can't figure out why I is skipped off a map grid, even though is done in any number of labeling systems to avoids confusion. He has no clue about the military phonetic alphabet even though its been used in innumerable movies and TV shows. really with every passing page the estimate of his real age has to be revised downwards.
 
Perhaps it was silly of me to think they might operate in a Julian system.

'Perhaps' is about as good as it gets from an HB.

So the map referenced by my forum colleagues above does show grid squares of roughly 1.96 X 1.96 minutes of arc per square, .379 square miles per square. And indeed J .65/7.54 looks to be roughly the location of our lost bird.

Yeah, after 3 posts saying you couldn't see it:rolleyes:


Now, the I and O looks like a 1 and 0, here they are together 1I1I1IO0OO0O0.

Now, are you still confused about it?
 
Incidentally, this particular behaviour, spotting something anomalous grabbing hold and running off full-speed to it's illogical conclusion on non-existent evidence.

That's 100%, absolutely, totally, what physicians don't do.
 
Every time Patrick1000 mentions "Julian system", I can't help bursting into a fit of laughter. At least there's nobody else in the room and I've already finished my tea.

Patrick1000, for the fourth time, what do you mean by "Julian system"?
 
The ways of the Shyster

What if they are playing with maps?????????

Let's assume for the moment that they are playing with maps, that even though Emil Shyster could do all of this by way of something sophisticated like employing a Julian or Besselian accounting system, he chooses instead to mess with maps, pretends to say something that the map really doesn't. It is plausible and we should examine that possibility. How would it look?

Here is the link to the official NASA map referenced by my forum colleagues previously and myself now.

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/LAM2_CMP-flown.jpg

Note the missing "I" from the labeling system running up the left hand side . The letters A through W provide for latitude reference with both the letters "I" and "O" missing. For longitude reference, the numbers 1 through 27 run across the bottom of the image. There are no "missing" numbers, 1 through 27 all there.

By my calculation, each small square is roughly 1.96 X 1.96 minutes of arc in dimension. So "Tranquility Base" in those days was said to be at 00 41 15 north and 23 26 00 east. Their best estimate to command module simulator pilot Michael Collins per the Voice Transcript as referenced above was J.5/7.7. These were the real time numbers available to fight technicians based on this imagery to use or not use as a part of a launch solution.

Post fight, Tranquility Base is determined to be at J.65/7.54. So the real time map estimate at J.5/7.7 differs from the confirmed location of Tranquility Base by 0.15 grid units of latitude(north) and .16 units of longitude(west). Let's see where that takes us on the moon.

0.15 X 1.96 gives 0.294 minutes of arc. So J .5 is 00 41 15 north minus 0.294 X 60 seconds equals
00 40 57 north.

For the longitude coordinate we have 23 26 00 east minus .16 X 1.96 minutes of arc gives
23 25 41 east.

So the NASA map J .5/7.7 equivalent in degrees/minutes/seconds notation is 00 40 57 north and 23 25 41 east. And indeed that is even closer to Tranquility Base than the real time H. David Reed calculated rendezvous radar solution that we find in the Apollo 11 Mission Report. That solution was 0.676 N and 23.40 E or equivalently 00 40 17 north and 23 24 00 east.

Reed's rendezvous radar solution was 1200 feet off or so distant from Tranquility Base and this map solution is better still than Reed. My rough calculation gives 690 feet distant.


Here's that memorable quote again from the Aldrin Apollo Lunar Surface Journal interview. Here's Buzz talking about how everything worked great, but at the same time, nobody knew where they were. And remember that "exactly" there was not Aldrin, that was the editor doing something he should not have done. Probably Aldrin told him to add the word "exactly" after Aldrin proof read and was given the option to change what was to become widely published text. I do not know that for a certainty, but would certainly seem to be the case here. Here's Buzz;

" Aldrin - "Somewhere, we had a state vector (three-axis position and velocity) update because of the tracking data that Houston got once we came around. But, how that happened and whether we were aware of it, I don't remember. I know that a lot of people got credit for developing the tracking filter that allowed them to do that. That neat capability contributed to the accuracy of our touchdown, even though nobody knew (exactly) where we were." "

So nobody knew where you were Buzz? Hope it is OK I left out the word "exactly" since I do want to quote you accurately.

So maybe the Shyster's game was simpler than I had thought it was. Reed walks into work. There are no good numbers, none "even close" to one another, all 5 solutions available to Reed when he steps into his FIDO role that am are no closer than 4.73 miles from Tranquility Base give or take as we learn in retrospect.

All five solutions "all over the map". Shyster's got the map. They tell Reed to solve for Tranquility. He does, based on phony trajectory stuff. How can any of this be real? By that I mean, really landing astronauts. They are parking stuff on the moon. That is real, and much of the telemetry is genuine in the sense it relates to that parking stuff, and so does come from a "genuine mission" in that sense.

So J .5/7.7 is dished to Collins flying his simulator from more or less simulated directly east to simulated directly west, 17 simulated degrees to the west of the planet earth as it would have appeared to real astronauts that day from the surface of the moon, real astronauts trying to find Collins were this not all a ruse. The simulated Columbia was 69 miles up, 17 degrees to the west of the second most easily spottable object in the sky, the earth. Actually, according to Neil, its one of the only two objects that you can see in the lunar sky, even if you are walking around around with your visor down, or unless you really are up there with a fancy telescope.





Is this Lake Tahoe?
 
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Oh and you do know Collins was orbiting right?
Complete orbit in 1hour 58 minutes.
Not just sitting there like some imaginary UFO.
 
I'd like to know the names of the number systems based on Mike, Oscar, and Papa.
:)

I can think of several based on Whiskey, but they might not be very consistent.

Still, they offer proof.
 
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